True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

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I was talking about Jesus giving us the New Covenant.

If Jesus had been looking for perfection in mankind, why would He have brought the New Covenant? Why would He not have just kept the Old Covenant in place?

That's what I was saying. Not that He broke anything or sinned.
The Old Covenant had death penalties attached to it. So love and grace could not be the focus. In addition, the ceremonial laws merely pointed to Jesus Christ as a type or shadow. So they are no longer necessary. But that does not mean the New Covenant has erased all forms of law (with no consequences in disobeying those laws or commands). The New Covenant laws or commands are easy to keep because they are based on love and or moral laws in loving God and loving others. But Paul said if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness (Which would involve the commands of Jesus) then they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). Also, Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's commandments, too (1 Corinthians 14:37). So I do not see how you think the New Covenant is a lawless one. There are 1,050 + New Testament Commands. For even believing on Jesus Christ is a commandment (1 John 3:23).

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Not just anyone could have rebuked Peter.

Uh yes, they could. Jesus says,

“If another believer sins against you, go privately and point out the offense. If the other person listens and confesses it, you have won that person back. But if you are unsuccessful, take one or two others with you and go back again, so that everything you say may be confirmed by two or three witnesses. If the person still refuses to listen, take your case to the church. Then if he or she won’t accept the church’s decision, treat that person as a pagan or a corrupt tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17) (New Living Translation).

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stuart lawrence

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. It is exactly this lack of perfect love which makes our sins so enticing to us when we are tempted.





If I asked a professional poker player to have a game of poker with me for a ten pence

stake, he might oblige, but there wouldn’t be any excitement in the game for him, would there? The stake is too small. If the following week he was playing a game in Las Vegas and there was a million dollars on the table, however, he’d be greatly excited then, wouldn’t he? The stakes would have his heart pounding I am sure. It is not possible to do anything that involves high stakes without great excitement surging through the individual’s body, is it?

Many take up sports that have an element of risk or danger in them so they may experience the thrill in doing so. Some jump off bridges from great heights, with ropes securely fastened to their bodies at one end, and to the bridge at the other, with enough slack to send them hurtling hundreds of feet toward the ground below. When the slack is exhausted, they come to a juddering halt, and dangle in the air for a short time, exhilarated by the thrill of the event. So it is fair to say the higher the risk involved in an activity, the greater the excitement it causes in the individual. The higher the stake a person plays for, the more the adrenalin flows.

There is one thing that dwarfs all others when it comes to battling for high stakes and taking the greatest risks, however, and that is when you believe eternal life is at stake. After all, what higher stake could a person play for than eternal life, and what activity could carry more risk than one that could send you to hell? People of faith know more than anyone of excitement being stirred in them, for they are playing for the highest stakes of all − and it isn’t a game! So what does the excitement focus on during this highest of all stakes battle? It must focus on what decides the outcome of it, for therein lies the risk and danger.

Now suppose a young man in his late teens goes to a church service one night and becomes a Christian. He believes God has wiped the slate clean because He has forgiven any sin in his life and is, therefore, spotless in God’s sight because Jesus died for his sins. This young man comes from a loving, secure home. He has hardly drunk, he has never smoked or used bad language, and he has not as yet had a serious girlfriend. Such a person you may think is off to a flying start as a Christian because he doesn’t have what people often consider the “taboo” sins that must cease in order for a person to attain Heaven.

So he sets out on the Christian walk. He is convicted to live his life as a Christian must, for the law has been put on his heart, and he is determined to follow his heart’s desire. The next day he goes out with some friends. They stop in a cafe for something to eat and a scantily clad and attractive young lady walks in. Excitement is stirred in him as she stands close by. The young man immediately has a conscience at his thoughts. Though he previously found women extremely attractive and had improper thoughts concerning them, for the first time, his conscience hurts him. He mustn’t have those kind of thoughts now that he is a Christian.

The following week, he is out again with friends and sees a provocative-looking woman walking down the road. This time the excitement stirred in him is even greater. The improper thoughts, therefore, are much worse than they were on the previous occasion. He dwells on them a little longer than he did the last time. This makes him feel far worse than he did previously. If he wants to be a Christian, those thoughts have to stop.

A few days later he is watching television. A show comes on that he has seen many times before. He is very troubled. Week after week he has seen the woman who hosts the programme and hardly given her a second glance, but now he is looking at her in a different way, one that stirs up a hornet’s nest in his mind.

Over the next few weeks the excitement grows when he thinks of or comes into contact with women. The resulting impure thoughts gradually worsen. He is very concerned. When he first became a Christian he used to ask God once a week to forgive him of any imperfections in his life, but now he asks every other day. At first he had no doubt God immediately forgave him, but now that the sin is getting worse, he is not so confident. How can he be a Christian and have the thoughts he is having?

The excitement women stir in him mounts, it becomes relentless. The impure thoughts magnify tenfold. He finds himself now daily pleading with God to forgive him for the wrong in his mind. He tries his hardest to resist such thoughts, but the harder he tries the worse they get. It is like trying to cut through a swarm of bees with a sword; his efforts come to nothing. He stops socialising with other young people at the church because they wouldn’t want to know him if they understood the real him beneath the skin.

Eventually he finds the excitement that women stir in him is out of control. He goes to church less frequently and spends far less time praying and reading his Bible. He is discouraged, wearied by his failed efforts to resist.

The final straw comes when he hires out a inappropriate contentographic film. He can’t be a Christian. He tried his hardest, but failed. In the few months since he got saved, he just ended up a worse sinner. The weird thing is before he became a Christian he looked at women and coveted them at times, but thoughts such as the ones he is having now had never consumed his mind. He walks away depressed, convinced he will end up in hell. Even though he is sure God exists and Jesus died on the cross to wipe the slate clean at the point of conversion, he couldn’t be good enough for God. He was too weak and ill disciplined.

Now this young man became a Christian. He was immediately sin conscious we can say. Before God placed the law on the young man’s heart and wrote it on his mind, he committed sin, for improper thoughts and lust break the law of God, but before he became a Christian, he would not have recognised his improper thoughts as sinful. For as we previously saw, it is only when we are conscious of God’s laws that we become conscious of our sin because when we see our shortfall in obedience to those laws, the light is turned on. So the young man earnestly desired the sin to cease, for he had been born again, but his sinful nature, which is basic to all and has been around since the time of Adam, didn’t want to stop sinning. It cannot, friend, for by its definition, it is a nature that desires to break the law of God.

Now why did such fear and excitement overcome the young man where lust was concerned? Because he believed the outcome of this highest-of-all-stakes battle hinged on ceasing his sin, in this case his improper thoughts. He was fully convinced this was the truth. The risk (or danger) of hell centred on that one thing. Now, friend, you simply cannot be in a battle for the highest of all stakes, with, therefore, the greatest of risks attached to it without huge excitement being stirred up in you. That is human nature, and that excitement will inevitably focus on what decides the outcome of the battle. Whenever impure thoughts came to the young man, therefore, great excitement overcame him at the same time. What must be the result? The sinful nature had a field day; he became swamped by lust and believed he was condemned.

You see, friend, there is no faith in fear, and there is no victory unless the truth of the Gospel is followed. If that young man had looked to Jesus and trusted that He died for his sins when improper thoughts came over him, those thoughts would have never posed any great risk or danger, would they? Huge excitement would, therefore, have never overcome him where lust (or coveting) was concerned. There would have been no high stakes battle concerning lust. The problem is the young man did not stand on a justification of faith in Christ, but one of works of the law (ceasing lust), for lust is breaking the law of God. Let us not forget, as well, had the young man looked to Jesus and trusted that He atoned for his sins, rather than trying to be justified before God by works of the law, he could not, and would not have used that as a licence to sin, for he desperately wanted to be free of the sin in his heart. Now we can say the young man would have felt alive before the law came to him because there was no condemnation then, but once it did come, sin (consciousness) sprang to life in him and he died spiritually. The commandment he believed would give him life if he obeyed it, instead brought death (condemnation), for he could not keep it. Sin, through the commandment, slew him, and yet he knew the law itself was holy, just, and good. He (his sin) was the problem, not the good and holy laws of God. ( Read Rom 7:7-11)



You see, Paul the Pharisee, and the young man both had something in common. They both believed they had to be good enough for God. Because that is what they believed, they were slain by sin according to the law’s requirements.
 
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Actually, this is what the Bible says in regards to the righteousness of the Law.

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4).

And the context,

"If you use your lives to do what your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life." (Romans 8:13) (Easy to Read Version).

"If you live by your corrupt nature, you are going to die. But if you use your spiritual nature to put to death the evil activities of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13) (God's Word Translation).

After reading Romans 8:4 and Romans 8:13 above here, it sure does not sound like I can not worry about sin and just have a belief alone on Jesus instead. Romans 8:4 says the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us in walking after the Spirit. The Spirit is never going to let us think sin is okay or that we can disobey anything in the New Testament for us New Covenant believers; And Romans 8:13 says if we do those sinful things we desire or want, we will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit to help stop doing the wrong things that you do, then you will live spiritually.

As for Romans 7: Paul was speaking of his life as a Jew before he became a Christian. This is important to understand because he did not have this struggle after coming to Christ. However, Paul here is no way advocating a belief that minimizes sin by having a belief on Jesus Chris alone, though. Nowhere does the Bible abrogate certain commands or truths that Jesus Christ Himself taught. Jesus said in Matthew 5:28-30 that if any man looks upon a woman in lust they could be cast bodily into hell-fire. Jesus in no way distinguished on whether or not the believer could get away with this sin on occasion by having a mere belief on Him alone. In Matthew 6:15, Jesus said that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. Again, no such distinction is made here or elsewhere in the Bible in regards to this teaching by Jesus Christ or one of His followers that they could commit the sin of unforgiveness and still be forgiven. Nowhere do we see that it is okay for a believer to not forgive last moment before they die and be forgiven. If we sin, we are to confess that sin so as to be forgiven (1 John 1:9). For the Scriptures say he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

The Bible says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Why all that trembling if there is no fear in working out one's salvation?


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stuart lawrence

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Actually, this is what the Bible says in regards to the righteousness of the Law.

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4).

And the context,

"f you use your lives to do what your sinful selves want, you will die spiritually. But if you use the Spirit’s help to stop doing the wrong things you do with your body, you will have true life." (Romans 8:13) (Easy to Read Version).

"If you live by your corrupt nature, you are going to die. But if you use your spiritual nature to put to death the evil activities of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13) (God's Word Translation).

As for Romans 7: Paul was speaking of his life as a Jew before he became a Christian. This is important to understand because he did not have this struggle after coming to Christ. However, Paul here is no way advocating a belief that minimizes sin by having a belief on Jesus Chris alone, though. Nowhere does the Bible abrogate certain commands or truths that Jesus Christ Himself taught. Jesus said in Matthew 5:28-30 that if any man looks upon a woman in lust they could be cast bodily into hell-fire. Jesus in no way distinguished on whether or not the believer could get away with this sin on occasion by having a mere belief on Him alone. In Matthew 6:15, Jesus said that if we do not forgive others, we will not be forgiven. Again, no such distinction is made here or elsewhere in the Bible in regards to this teaching by Jesus Christ or one of His followers that they could commit the sin of unforgiveness and still be forgiven. Nowhere do we see that it is okay for a believer to not forgive last moment before they die and be forgiven. If we sin, we are to confess that sin so as to be forgiven (1 John 1:9). For the Scriptures say he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

The Bible says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Why all that trembling if there is no fear in working out one's salvation?


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If the above is referring to my post, you will obviously note I know Paul was speaking as a Jew in Rom ch7
 
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stuart lawrence

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As for Romans 7: Paul was speaking of his life as a Jew before he became a Christian. This is important to understand because he did not have this struggle after coming to Christ.


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Yes, Paul is speaking as a Pharisee in rom 7

But no, Christians always have the struggle of flesh against spirit, it never stops as long as they remain in a body of weak flesh:

For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want Gal5:17

It is simply reeling words off the top of your head to suggest Christians no longer have the eternal struggle of flesh verses spirit
 
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Yes, I am already aware that you aware that Paul was speaking as a Jew. However, I wanted to re-clarify that point because it is important in understanding that he does not struggle with sin today as a believer. This "non-struggle" is not as you suggest or believe in minimizing sin whereby you have regulated sin's effects as being of no effect to the believer in regards to their salvation (i.e. Meaning, they got their ticket to Heaven and there is no sin that can take that away). However, Romans 8:4 and Romans 8:13 refutes this type of belief. This "non-struggle" Paul has is in walking after the Spirit. This would include obeying the Commands in the New Testament. For how can the Spirit be against Scripture that He had written thru men? So we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit. But if we live after the flesh (anything sinful), we will die spiritually. But if we live and walk after the Spirit (Which would include believing everything that is written to us in the New Covenant - Including God's Commands for us in the New Testament), then we will live. Nowhere does God's Word give us any indication that Matthew 6:15 and Matthew 5:28-30 have been later abrogated. So there are still dire after-life consequences in disobeying certain Laws of God under the New Testament.


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Also, your example is totally fictious and totally ridiculous in light of all the facts or the truth about life. Do people always play games because there are high stakes involved? No. Do people jump off bridges with a bungee cord because they want to take the risk in dying? No. They just want to feel what it is like to fall thru the air. It is exciting. Granted, there are people who do want to fail in life and punish themselves. There are people who do want to kill themselves. But these people are not normal. People sin because they like the pleasure of their sin (Whatever that sin may be). So anyone attempting to change the Bible so as to minimize sin or to change the Bible to say that Matthew 6:15 and Matthew 5:28-30 no longer have dire after-life consequences are seeking to justify sin on some level. But Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the One and love the other. So choose this day in whom ye will serve. So will you serve sin? Or will you serve God? You cannot serve both (By just believing on Jesus and then acting like sin is no big deal anymore salvation wise). It doesn't work like that.


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stuart lawrence

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Yes, I am already aware that you aware that Paul was speaking as a Jew. However, I wanted to re-clarify that point because it is important in understanding that he does not struggle with sin today as a believer. This "non-struggle" is not as you suggest or believe in minimizing sin whereby you have regulated sin's effects as being of no effect to the believer in regards to their salvation (i.e. Meaning, they got their ticket to Heaven and there is no sin that can take that away). However, Romans 8:4 and Romans 8:13 refutes this type of belief. This "non-struggle" Paul has is in walking after the Spirit. This would include obeying the Commands in the New Testament. For how can the Spirit be against Scripture that He had written thru men? So we fulfill the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit. But if we live after the flesh (anything sinful), we will die spiritually. But if we live and walk after the Spirit (Which would include believing everything that is written to us in the New Covenant - Including God's Commands for us in the New Testament), then we will live. Nowhere does God's Word give us any indication that Matthew 6:15 and Matthew 5:28-30 have been later abrogated. So there are still dire after-life consequences in disobeying certain Laws of God under the New Testament.


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What I object to in what you write is when you say the struggle is over. That is quite frankly a ridiculous statement to make. As long as the Christian lives in a body of weak flesh there will always be the struggle of flesh against spirit. However, that does not mean you are left in the state Paul was in Romans 7. You have to use discernment when reading the scriptures.
You still struggle with flesh against spirit for you do not perfectly obey the moral law do you,. So if you have no struggle with flesh against spirit you just wilfully sin when you could easily avoid it. According to your teaching that would bar you from being a christian
Consider what statements you make Jason. I was brought up with pat statements, being naïve I believed them then, but they can do great damage if you do.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Also, your example is totally fictious and totally ridiculous in light of all the facts or the truth about life.

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You think it isn't true to real life? I know of Christian counsellors who spend much time with people who became Christians and ended up consumed by concupiscence. What I wrote directly relates to Pauls experience in Rom 7:7-11
You need to get into the real world Jason, real people and how the wrong message can affect them. What I wrote is most definatley true to real life.
I have been informed half the sex addicts in the US at one time or another went to ''holiness'' churches
If you understood the core of Pauls message you would not object to what I wrote, but you do not, for all you have is the literal letter unfortunately, not the truth that letter contains
 
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JLB777

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First, no true believer is self taught. All true believers are ultimately taught by the Spirit or God. For the Spirit shall guide us into all truth. Second, show me where New Covenant believers attended a church building as you see it today in Scripture. On the contrary, what you will see in the New Testament is believers gathering in their homes and celebrating the Lord's supper. You will not see regular fellowship involving one man speaking over a large crowd in a large building they call a "church" (When it is God's people who are called the church). There is no board of directors. Even Paul himself did not charge for the gospel. But today, "church" is big business. That is what it is. Fellowship was not a gathering of believers and unbelievers with some kind of altar call. Fellowship was excusively for believers. Evangelism was done by believers going house to house.

Two threads you should check out are:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/no-one-man-pastor-ministry-over-all.7895370/
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-church-which-meets-in-their-house.7895195/


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Yes Jason, so true.


Great Post!


JLB
 
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Light of the East

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Yes Jason, so true.


Great Post! JLB

Not true at all. Did you see what I wrote in response to this? If this is true, then how come there are thousands of churches and hundreds of doctrines out there, most disagreeing with one another on some point of doctrine or behavior? All of them claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and the Bible.

Is the Holy Spirit really that schizophrenic? Right here on this thread and in this board there is sufficient evidence of this phenomenon.

So what Jason appears to mean is that a "true believer" in the end is one who comes up with the same conclusions that he does. He refuses to read the Early Fathers and disagrees with them, even though the lived within a couple of generations of Christ, his opinion on the Bible is the true truth and the rest of us are deceived, and only if we follow Jasonism are we really true believers.

Don't you see a problem here? Or are you a Jasonist also?
 
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