True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[Bible Highlighter]

This thread is to prove your case for or against Conditional Salvation (Which would include the understanding that Justification is wiping the slate clean of one's past sins when a person repents and receives Christ or when they (the believer) confesses and forsakes their sin) (This would also include the acceptance that the word "works" (In certain cases) and the word "Law" in other occasions in the Bible is in reference to the Law of Moses, too).

Personally, I believe in the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation" that teaches that a true believer who is saved will naturally bring forth a life full of holiness and fruitful works. Now, do not misunderstand me, works are not done to be saved, but they are merely the evidence that you have been saved when one repents and accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. If a believer sins, they need to immediately confess that sin and forsake it and continue to walk uprightly with their Lord. If a believer continues to abide in unrepentant sin that leads unto death (lying cheating murder etc.) then they are not saved.

So seeing I hold to the Biblical View of "Conditional Salvation", I am naturally against all forms of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) (or Eternal Security).

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). However, another problem with this version of OSAS is that it denies Sinless Perfectionism, too (Like all other forms of OSAS). Meaning, those who hold to this view generally deny that one can stop sinning (or stop in committing those grevious sins or sins that lead unto death like murder, hate, adultery, lying, etc.) in this life. But this is merely an excuse to hold onto the old man and their sin. True repentance is confessing and forsaking one's sin. God does not want us to remain enslave to our sins. Yes, there are people who honestly struggle with sin. But we will not be slaves to our sin in this life if we trust in Christ and allow Him to do the good work in our lives.


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[Bible Highlighter]

What I will be discussing.

1. True Justification vs. False Justification.

2. True Obedience vs. False Obedience.

3. The Law of Christ vs. the Law of Moses.

4. The New Covenant vs. the Old Covenant.

5. Works of Christ vs. Works of the Law.

6. God directed works vs. Man directed works.

7. True Righteousness vs. False Righteousness.

8. What does a True Born Again life look like?
(Does your belief about the New Birth support Holiness or sin?)

9. What type of "works" is Ephesians 2:9 referring to?
(God directed works or man directed works?)

10. The Problem in denying that a believer can stop sinning or that we can be Perfect.

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[Bible Highlighter]

However, before I describe the list of 10 above, there are 3 major groups of believers that I have discovered that I would like to mention.

There are 3 Groups of Conditional Salvationists or believers who deny Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) and yet they still make room or an allowance for sin in some way (Which I believe puts their salvation or good standing with God in jeopardy).

Group #1. - Non-OSAS "Sinless Perfectionism" Deniers.
There are believers in Jesus Christ who deny OSAS or Eternal Security but yet they deny Sinless Perfectionism. They believe that a believer will generally live a holy life and yet the believer will never be free from sinning in this life (which could include lying, looking upon women in lust, hating, etc. - which would be followed by confession but no real change in their life of those sins). They will also make claims that we are not saved by works. Which from one perspective is true. We are not saved by works. But whose work are we not saved by? Man's works or God's works? That is the key to understanding salvation here. For salvation is in not in anything you do. Salvation is a person named Jesus Christ. Salvation is in abiding in Christ and allowing His good work to flow thru your life or not. But a believer cannot continue in sin or make excuses that they will sin at some point in the future (thereby allowing sin to be their little pet to keep coming back into their life over and over - For sin shall not have dominion over you). (For if one goes back to sin again, it is like a dog returning to it's own vomit). Yes, believers can honestly struggle with sin. However, God never wants us to give into the thinking we will be a slave to our sin in this life. Paul describes sin as being a part of our old life. He says we are to be slaves to righteousness and not slaves to sin. Jesus says, he that sins is a slave to sin. Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." Paul says, know ye not your own selves, examine whether or not Christ be in you except you be reprobrate. How can you examine whether Christ is in your or not? Read 1 John 2:3-4. Also, to say that we are not saved by works (i.e. God directed works - not man directed works) is simply one not being honest with their reading of the Bible plainly, too. Not yielding to God in holiness and disobeying certain commands in the New Testament have grave consequences to our souls in the after-life if we choose to disobey them, too. For example: Matthew 6:15 says, if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven by the Father. 1 John 3:15 says if we hate our brother we are a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding within them. Sure, expressing that you are sorry about these sins is good. But if one keeps doing them over and over and does not stop, are they really sorry about those sins? In other words, it would be like a man who keeps saying he is sorry to his wife that he keeps cheating on her. There has to be a point where he is honestly truly sorry enough to stop. If not, then his wife could leave him for his unfaithfulness. Why do we think it is any different with God? For to say that we will always sin at some point in the future is essentially making an excuse for sin.

Group #2. - Non-OSAS "Command Breakers & or Command Makers"
There are believers in Jesus Christ who deny OSAS or Eternal Security and yet they break certain New Testament Commands by either twisting them, and or by adding their own man made commandments or church traditions (Which is a breaking of God's Command not to add to His Word). This is a wide an varied group of believers ranging from those who break God's Command on idolatry to those who break God's simple Command on loving others. There are even believers who say that certain Commands by God are a requirement for salvation (When they are not), like baptism and or speaking in tongues. Some (not all) in this camp believe we are saved by Man directed Works Salvationism (Which is wrong). In either case, they break certain Commands of God and or they invent certain man made Commandments that do not apply to one's salvation.

Group #3. - Non-OSAS "Law of Moses" or "Partial Old Covenant" Followers.
There are believers in Jesus Christ who deny OSAS or Eternal Security and yet they believe we must still obey certain ceremonial laws in the Law of Moses as a requirement for salvation. This group is very similar to Group #2. However, they are distinct because many of them believe in obeying the New Covenant Commands (But they simply wrongfully go back to the Law - Which Paul warns us about many times). Now, there are some in this group who deny the very words of Paul (These folks are called Ebionites). Others who believe in the books written by Paul in this camp merely find tricky ways to twist what Paul said in regards to how we are not under the Law of Moses or how we are not justified by the Law. Many in this camp will say that keeping the Saturday Sabbath or the Sabbath Day at least once a week is a requirement for one's right standing with God. However, no such Sabbath Command (with consequences to one's soul in the after-life in disobeying it) is given to New Covenant believers, though. Some (not all) in this camp believe we are saved by Man directed Works Salvationism (Which is wrong). In either case, they falsely adhere to a Command or Commands that do not apply to one's salvation.


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[Bible Highlighter]

The problem in folks understanding Soteriology (i.e. the Study of Salvation) is that they deny the good result of having Christ (God) in their lives or they make up their own commands that God did not require of us.

For we are not saved by man directed works but we are saved by God directed works. Scripture says, "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, God's grace is there for us. Not so that we can break God's Commands. But so that we can obey them with Christ working in us.

For we are saved by God directed works. Not just in Justification (Initial salvation by repenting of our sins and accepting Christ and believing in His sacrifice), but in Sanctification, too (Whereby we let Christ and His work to continue to flow thru our lives - according to the New Testament Commands given to us within His Word).


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[Bible Highlighter]

So understanding Salvation is in properly understanding "God directed works."


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[Bible Highlighter]

In other words, there is a difference between someone trying to save themselves by a set of rules alone versus say receiving the free gift of salvation by faith. One is man directed, and the other is God directed. Salvation or our free gift is a person named Jesus Christ. If Christ abides in us, then the works of Christ will be evident in our lives. We yield or surrender to Christ and He does the good work. We believe He dies in our place and we trust in Him that He is faithful to complete that which He started in our lives (If we cooperate with the good work the LORD wants to do in us).

For the heresy that the book of Romans and Galatians were addressing was Man Directed Works Salvationism by the Law of Moses. Galatians 3:21 says there is no law that could bring life. Now, this mention of the "law" in Galatians is clearly in reference to the Law of Moses and not all law in general for two reasons. One, circumcision is mentioned in both the book of Romans and Galatians as being a problem. Second, Christ Himself commands his followers to believe in Him (1 John 3:23). Surely this command or law brings life. So we can conclude that Paul uses the word "works" and the word "law" on certain occasions as in reference to the Law of Moses and not "all laws" or "all kinds of works" in general. We are saved by grace thru faith. However, the Bible defines faith as both a belief and as an action (See Hebrews 11 and James 2).


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[Bible Highlighter]

For we believe that the sacrifice of Christ (Which saves us) goes into effect when we repented of our sins, accepted Him as our Savior, and then continue to conform to His image (By allowing Christ to do the good work in our lives). It is Jesus that saves 100%. Both in Justification and in Sanctification. However, we have to cooperate with the LORD. We have to surrender to the "good work" He wants to do in our lives.


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[Bible Highlighter]

1. True Justiication vs. False Justification.

True Justification.
True Justification is being declared righteous by the works of God or Christ (Which first involves repentance of sin and the acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, which is then eventually followed by God directed works).

False Justification.
False Justification is being declared righteous by Christ's one time sacrifice and no works of any kind are necessary for continued salvation. While some in this camp believe holiness should be present in the believer's life, they do not believe one can cease or stop from sin (Thereby making sin their ultimate or true master).

The word "Justification" appears 3 times in the King James Bible.

#1. Romans 4:25
Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

#2. Romans 5:16
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

#3. Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The word "justified" appears 22 times in relation to being declared righteous in the New Testament within the King James.

#1. Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

#2. Luke 18:14
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

#3. Acts 13:38-39
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

#4. Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

#5. Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

#6. Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

#7. Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

#8. Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

#9. Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

#10. Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

#11. Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

#12. 1 Corinthians 4:4
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

#13. 1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

#14. Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

#15. Galatians 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

#16. Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

#17. Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

#18. Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you arej ustified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

#19. Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

#20. James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

#21. James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

#22. James 2:25
Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?


In one of my upcoming posts I will start to address each of these verses and what they are saying (Based on the context). In the mean time, I am going to take take a short detour so as to address verses brought up by others (In another thread) who are attempting to defend OSAS.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I cannot believe you wrote the emboldened. You just quoted to me Ezekiel 36:26&276. This is what it states:

I WILL give you a new heart da and put a new spirit in you; I WILLremove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I WILL put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Dear Stuart:

Good morning.

Grace, peace, and love be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope things are going well for you. Anyways, to get down to business,

Well, let's read what the passage (you quoted back to me) says and see what you missed.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

This passage was spoken to Israelites and to all believers who would come there-after. So being born again is not a new concept; And here we see that after we are regenerated spiritually and given a new heart, the LORD then lives within us whereby He will CAUSE us to walk in His statutes and to KEEP His judgments and to DO THEM. In other words, we cannot take the credit. It is God who works within us to DO those things within His Word that He commands of us. It is not of our own power. God works in us to keep His Word after we repent of our sins, accept Christ, and believe that His sacrifice and resurrection saves us.

Now, if God has done that for the convert, how can they then use the knowledge they have no law of righteousness aas a licence to sin? It is not possible. You only get a righteousness apart from law because of the above in Ezekiel, it mirrors Hebrews 10:16&17

But you have to keep reading after verses 16-17 in Hebrews 10 to get the context, though.

Hebrews 10:26 says,
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

And Hebrews 10:38 says,
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Sadly many refuse to accept they have a righteousness apart from the law for in their hearts they want some of the credit for attaining Heaven. All the glory is God's he will not share it with any man!

You misunderstand WHO and WHAT Paul is referring to in the book of Romans, and Galatians. You will note that Paul mentions "circumcision" in both of those books as being a problem. Who was wanting the Romans and the Galatians to be circumcised? The Jews who thought salvation was by strict obedience to the Law of Moses alone. The Jews did not believe in Jesus Christ or the gospel. They believed in being justified by the deeds of the Law alone. They wanted the Romans and the Galatians to be circumcised in order to be saved. They wanted them to strictly adhere to the Law of Moses alone to be saved. But no flesh shall be justified by the Law alone in God's sight because all have sinned (Including faithful believers who had once sinned as a part of their old lives). We need a Savior to save us. We need a sacrifice to atone for our sin and wipe the slate clean of our past sins to get right with God. But from there, we let the works of Christ flow thru us. We let God directed works continue in our life and not man directed works (Whereby we conform to the image of the Son and continue to apply the sacrifice of Christ to our lives - Which saves us).

For in Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul says we are saved by grace thru faith and it is not of works. It is the gift of God and not that of ourselves. So salvation is not like what the Jews think salvation is (Which is strict obedience to the Law of Moses alone). So the works being spoken here in verse 9 is speaking about man directed works and ignoring of the gospel. However, true salvation can be received by repenting of one's sins, accepting Christ, and believing in his death and resurrection. A free gift to be received (Which is a person named Jesus Christ - 1 John 5:12). But we also must read verse 10 that says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. What kind of works? God directed works. For good works are only done by God. For there is none good but God. James speaks of how we are justified by works. Man directed works or God directed works? Surely James is speaking about God directed works that are done in a believer's life because they abide with Christ (God). For a mental acknowledgment type faith alone is not going to cut it. For even the demons believe and tremble; And faith is described as both a belief and as an action in Hebrews 11 (Which is the heroes of faith chapter in the Bible). In other words, we are saved by God directed works and not man directed works. If one is still continue to think they will always sin, they are not being led by God because God cannot agree with unrighteousness. God wants us to stop sinning. Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." Jesus meant what He said. He wasn't lying. But do you think it is our effort alone that we can stop sinning (Whereby a believer would take the credit)? No. Most certainly not. God is the One who helps a believer to stop sinning. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) --- Not just on the cross so as to forgive men of their past sins with Christ's sacrifice (Justification), but so as to help man to overcome sin (by living within them), too (Sanctification).

For Paul says in 2 Corinthians 13:5,
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

How can we prove we know Him or that He is in us?

Read 1 John 2:3-4.

Anyways, I am wishing nothing but good things to you in Jesus Christ.
May God's love shine upon you greatly today.

Please be well.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


Side Note:

Yeah, but what about Psalm 143:2? Does that not teach that no man living shall shall be justified in God's sight? Yes. This is a true statement. No man can be justified before God because all men have sinned (Even faithful believers have sinned as a part of their old life). For their old life disqualfies them in being justified by any law alone (before God). However, Psalm 143:2 is NOT talking about the current state of the faithful believer (Which is God directed) who:

(a) Repented of their sins.
(b) Accepted Christ into their hearts.
(c) Believed Jesus Christ died and was risen so as to save them from their sins.
(d) And bring forth Christ (God) directed works (not man directed works) from that point on.

Why? Because it is God who saved them by their acceptance of Him and His sacrifice and by allowing Christ to work in their lives. Psalm 143:2 is talking about men trying to be just apart from God. It is not talking about those who yield to the LORD and His work (Which would include both Justification and Sanctification).


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[Bible Highlighter]

The flesh has been crucified, but we still have a sin nature. Why not read Romans 4, 5, 6, 7 and learn a little more about how that happens.

It is contradictory to say that a believer's flesh has been crucified and yet say that they still have a sin nature. Sin shall not have dominion over you.

What about Romans 4? Well, OSAS Proponents believe Romans 4 is talking about all works in general or all types or forms of works. However, it is actually in reference to the works of the Law of Moses (Which is evident by the mention of circumcision in the previous chapter). Anyways, lets read the first 5 verses in Romans 4 in context to the Law of Moses:

"What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works [of the Law of Moses], he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh [by the Law of Moses] is the reward not reckoned of grace [as a gift], but of debt [in being in debted to the Law of Moses]. But to him that worketh not [by the Law of Moses], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. " (Romans 4:1-5).​

Also, we know that Abraham was justified by the fact that he also performed , too. For Romans 4:21-22 says, "And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness." Certain OSAS Proponents also believe James 2 is in reference to external works that justify one before man and not God. But in reality James 2 is talking about God directed works that are a requirement for one's faith to be true. For faith without works is dead. Other OSAS Proponents completey disregard what James says because they believe that his writings were written to Hebrews and not Gentile Christians. But Scripture says there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

OSAS Proponents also believe Galatians 3 is in reference to all law, as well. But Galatians 3 uses the words, "works of the Law" to let us know it is referring to the Law of Moses. For Galatians 3:24 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." So again, this is not in reference to all law but to the Law of Moses.

Also, OSAS Proponents believe that no works are not necessary of any kind as a part of one's salvation by pointing to Ephesians 2:8-10, too. But what they fail to understand is that Ephesians 2:8-9 is in reference to self directed works by man and it is not in reference to God directed works mentioned in Ephesians 2:10. For we were created in Christ Jesus for God directed "good works" to flow within our life. This is why Paul says we are to examine we are in the faith or not and prove that Jesus Christ is in us unless we are reprobate (2 Corinthians 13:5).

As for Romans 5: Well, this is talking about Justification or when we repent of our sins, accept Christ, and believe in His death, burial, and resurrection that saves us. This is talking about how we are initially saved (Which is a work of God) that we had to agree with.

As for Romans 6: This disproves any belief that says you can continue to sin so that grace may abound. It says so right in the first verse. At the end of the chapter, Paul says you are either a slave to sin or you are slave to righteousness. Those who have surrendered to Christ and have salvation are slaves to righteousness.

As for Romans 7: Well, some say Paul struggled with sin as a Christian according to Romans 7, but this is not the case. Paul was speaking from his perspective as a Jew who obeyed the Law before he became a Christian in the bulk of Romans 7. For in Romans 7:14, Paul says he is sold under sin. Yet in Romans 8:2, Paul says he is set free from sin. Also, Paul gives us the solution to his struggle with sin at the end of Romans 7, too. That solution is Jesus Christ.

If we were perfect, than we would not need the Holy Spirit to lead us in sanctification.

Christ (God) calls us to perfection and to stop sinning. Granted, God transforming a person's life is not always an overnight process for all believers. Many of God's people like David, Job, and Jacob had to learn the good ways of God the hard way. But that does not mean God does not want us to be perfect and to stop sinning in this life.

How so?

1 Peter 4:1 says those that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." Paul says to us be ye angry and sin not so as not to give place to the devil. David said that he hid His Word (i.e. God's Word) within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. Jesus said to the Pharisees that he that sins is a slave to sin. Paul says sin shall not have dominion over you. Jesus says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. The Father is perfect because He is holy and sinless. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the LORD. Jesus told us to pray so as not to be led into temptation. How can you be led into sin if you are not tempted by sin? John says he that sins is of the devil. Jesus says we cannot serve two masters. For we will hate the one and love the other. Meaning, we cannot serve both God and sin. We have to choose this day in whom we will serve.


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[ToBeLoved]

It is contradictory to say that flesh has been crucified and yet you still have a sin nature.

No it's not because I did not crucify my flesh, Jesus defeated sin and I am crucified with Jesus Christ when I am saved. It is not what 'I' have done, but what Christ has done for me.

The fact that we have a sin nature still is further proven in that Jesus calls us to repentance and to seek the forgiveness of sin after we are saved. Sin has no dominion over us because sin does not separate us from God anymore because we have forgiveness of sin through the blood of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Mark 2:5-10:
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

God tells us not to let sin reign in our members because we still have our sin nature. Our sin nature was handed down from Adam, not sin itself.

Romans 6:1-13
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No it's not because I did not crucify my flesh, Jesus defeated sin and I am crucified with Jesus Christ when I am saved. It is not what 'I' have done, but what Christ has done for me.

The fact that we have a sin nature still is further proven in that Jesus calls us to repentance and to seek the forgiveness of sin after we are saved. Sin has no dominion over us because sin does not separate us from God anymore because we have forgiveness of sin through the blood of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Not true at all. For how do you apply the blood? Well, 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. In fact, trying comparing 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:3-4. They are a parallel of each other.

Mark 2:5-10:

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. 6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins

Yes, Jesus can forgive our sins. This is in reference to our past sins. For if we willfully sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (See 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9). For he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13).

God tells us not to let sin reign in our members because we still have our sin nature. Our sin nature was handed down from Adam, not sin itself.

Romans 6:1-13
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Yes, the body of sin might be destroyed for the believer. This is not talking about those who have crucified the affections and lusts thru those who have learned how to be faithful to God over time. Like I said, it is not an overnight process for all believers to stop sinning. Believers need to be sanctified and purified by the Word and the Spirit in this life. For Jesus tells us to be perfect. Jesus told the woman caught in the act of adultery to stop sinning. 1 Peter 4:1 says those that have suffered in the flesh have ceased (stopped) from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. You cannot say to someone that they need to put to death the body of sin if they have already crucified the affections and lusts. That would be a contradictory statement that would not make any sense.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Also, nowhere did I say salvation is anything in what we do, either. We merely choose to yield to Christ by repenting of our sins, accepting Him into our heart, believing He died and was risen so as to save us, and then allow His good works (Which are God directed works spoken about within His Word) to flow within our lives. For if Christ lives in a believer, then surely the fruit will be evident in their lives to prove it. In fact, Jesus says we will know false prophets by their fruit (Again, see 1 John 2:3-4).


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[stuart lawrence]

Dear Stuart:

Good morning.

Grace, peace, and love be unto you from the Lord Jesus Christ. I hope things are going well for you. Anyways, to get down to business,

Well, let's read what the passage (you quoted back to me) says and see what you missed.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

This passage was spoken to Israelites and to all believers who would come there-after. So being born again is not a new concept; And here we see that after we are regenerated spiritually and given a new heart, the LORD then lives within us whereby He will CAUSE us to walk in His statutes and to KEEP His judgments and to DO THEM. In other words, we cannot take the credit. It is God who works within us to DO those things within His Word that He commands of us. It is not of our own power. God works in us to keep His Word after we repent of our sins, accept Christ, and believe that His sacrifice and resurrection saves us.



But you have to keep reading after verses 16-17 in Hebrews 10 to get the context, though.

Hebrews 10:26 says,
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

And Hebrews 10:38 says,
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.



You misunderstand WHO and WHAT Paul is referring to in the book of Romans, and Galatians. You will note that Paul mentions "circumcision" in both of those books as being a problem. Who was wanting the Romans and the Galatians to be circumcised? The Jews who thought salvation was by strict obedience to the Law of Moses alone. The Jews did not believe in Jesus Christ or the gospel. They believed in being justified by the deeds of the Law alone. They wanted the Romans and the Galatians to be circumcised in order to be saved. They wanted them to strictly adhere to the Law of Moses alone to be saved. But no flesh shall be justified by the Law alone in God's sight because all have sinned (Including faithful believers who had once sinned as a part of their old lives). We need a Savior to save us. We need a sacrifice to atone for our sin and wipe the slate clean of our past sins to get right with God. But from there, we let the works of Christ flow thru us. We let God directed works continue in our life and not man directed works (Whereby we conform to the image of the Son and continue to apply the sacrifice of Christ to our lives - Which saves us).

For in Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul says we are saved by grace thru faith and it is not of works. It is the gift of God and not that of ourselves. So salvation is not like what the Jews think salvation is (Which is strict obedience to the Law of Moses alone). So the works being spoken here in verse 9 is speaking about man directed works and ignoring of the gospel. However, true salvation can be received by repenting of one's sins, accepting Christ, and believing in his death and resurrection. A free gift to be received (Which is a person named Jesus Christ - 1 John 5:12). But we also must read verse 10 that says we are created in Christ Jesus for good works. What kind of works? God directed works. For good works are only done by God. For there is none good but God. James speaks of how we are justified by works. Man directed works or God directed works? Surely James is speaking about God directed works that are done in a believer's life because they abide with Christ (God). For a mental acknowledgment type faith alone is not going to cut it. For even the demons believe and tremble; And faith is described as both a belief and as an action in Hebrews 11 (Which is the heroes of faith chapter in the Bible). In other words, we are saved by God directed works and not man directed works. If one is still continue to think they will always sin, they are not being led by God because God cannot agree with unrighteousness. God wants us to stop sinning. Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." Jesus meant what He said. He wasn't lying. But do you think it is our effort alone that we can stop sinning (Whereby a believer would take the credit)? No. Most certainly not. God is the One who helps a believer to stop sinning. For Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8) --- Not just on the cross so as to forgive men of their past sins with Christ's sacrifice (Justification), but so as to help man to overcome sin (by living within them), too (Sanctification).

For Paul says in 2 Corinthians 13:5,
"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

How can we prove we know Him or that He is in us?

Read 1 John 2:3-4.

Anyways, I am wishing nothing but good things to you in Jesus Christ.
May God's love shine upon you greatly today.

Please be well.
With loving kindness to you in Christ,

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


Side Note:

Yeah, but what about Psalm 143:2? Does that not teach that no man living shall shall be justified in God's sight? Yes. This is a true statement. No man can be justified before God because all men have sinned (Even faithful believers have sinned as a part of their old life). For their old life disqualfies them in being justified by any law alone (before God). However, Psalm 143:2 is NOT talking about the current state of the faithful believer (Which is God directed) who:

(a) Repented of their sins.
(b) Accepted Christ into their hearts.
(c) Believed Jesus Christ died and was risen so as to save them from their sins.
(d) And bring forth Christ (God) directed works (not man directed works) from that point on.

Why? Because it is God who saved them by their acceptance of Him and His sacrifice and by allowing Christ to work in their lives. Psalm 143:2 is talking about men trying to be just apart from God. It is not talking about those who yield to the LORD and His work (Which would include both Justification and Sanctification).


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Hi Jason
I hope you are well. As I told you, I will not be responding to anymore of your posts, and I explained why. It is only fair to tell you this, so as you do not write lengthy posts I will not be engaging in. Though you and I could swap scriptures endlessly I feel there would be little point.
Do you like testimonies? I used to love hearing them as a child, so if it is ok with you, I will give you a testimony:

At the age of ten, I moved with my parents from the Baptist church we had worshipped at to a born again fundamentalist church which fully believed in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today. I thought I had 'arrived when I got there. The minister wore a suit and cracked some jokes from the pulpit, it was very different from the more sombre minister in his gown at the Baptist church. I was just a normal, happy kid at ten, but that was about to change.
When we got to the new church I was strongly convicted I must take God very seriously, far more seriously than I previously had. After four weeks I responded to an altar call and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour. Even at that tender age I knew I stood before God spotless in His sight, totally forgiven of any sin in my life(whatever sin a ten year old may have)
I set out on the Christian walk determined to live a good and Holy life for God according to his placed laws on my heart. As you are aware, through the law placed within us we become conscious of our sin before God. And so for the first time in my life I was conscious of sin.
I tried so hard to live a good life for God I really did, I just wanted to stay in that cleansed and spotless place I was in the night I got saved. But there was a problem, I couldn't do it, the sin kept returning. I reached puberty and if even a fleeting impure thought came over me, stark horror flooded over me. I was sinning(breaking the moral law) I feared hell, the sin had to stop. I knew of the holy Spirits power in our lives, so it was not a case of ignoring that power. Many times I went forward to receive the Baptism of the Holy Spirit but never received, I figured it was because I was too much of a sinner, that was why God would not bless me with the gift.
The sin grew stronger, no matter how hard I tried to resist it, it just grew and grew in me. At school they called me a 'holy joe' because they knew I went to church and didn't join in their lewd conversations. But they could only see the outside of the cup, not the inside. I was confused, the non Christians at my school were happier than I was, yet I was a Christian.I used to plead with God, to forgive me my sin, but I was not sure he would as I got older, for the sin was getting worse, how could I be a Christian and be as corrupted as I was on the inside? To be continued

 

[stuart lawrence]

Continuing from previous post to Jason

I began to feel heavy, depressed, I felt rotten, guilty and dirty for being the sinful person I was. I feared hell due to my imperfections and corruption. Eventually, when I was 15 I walked away from the church, I couldn't be good enough for God. I could not obey the moral law(didn't see it that way then) I failed to be righteous in God's sight by observing his good and Holy laws. I had simply become full of all manner of concupiscence. I looked back to the time before I made that commitment to God at ten. I had felt alive then, I had been happy, but when the commandment came, sin(consciousness) sprang to life and I died(spiritually) The commandment that was ordained to life(if I obeyed it) instead brought death(condemnation) for I could not keep it.
Four years later my life was in a terrible mess, I cried out to God and recommitted my life to him. And for the first time in my life I read beyond the Gospels, I read Pauls letters. I was stunned. The born again fundamentalist church I had been brought up in never preached what I was now reading. I could not be good enough for God, I could not earn my way to heaven, I could have no righteousness/justification before God of observing the law. The only thing that could give me right standing with God was faith in his son that he died for my sin. My righteousness was standing in Christ, not observing the law(being good enough) Well I had been brought up to believe in the infallibility of scripture, so I believed what I read. I dared to believe, even me with my sin could be a Christian, for my Christianity hinged on what Christ did for me at Calvary, not my personal goodness under the law.
But what of the sin? I had been born again, I didn't want it, I wanted it to go, what must I do? For the past six years a particular sin had gripped me, I was its slave. It had left me feeling dirty, rotten and ashamed. I was desperate to be free of it. I got down on my knees and asked God to deal with it(as I had many times before but to no avail) then I determined to look to Christ and trust he was my right standing before God. In other words, I died to a law of righteousness concerning the Ten Commandments/moral law. It wasn't easy, for the next three days this particular sin continued, but for the first time in my life I did not let it condemn me, I trusted Jesus was my right standing before God, not my own personal goodness. A voice in my head kept telling me I was faking it, I couldn't possibly be a Christian and commit the sin I was committing. You will never know how hard it was to ignore that voice, but I did ignore it and clung to faith in Christ. On the fourth day, this sin that had gripped me for six years stopped. Whereas before, when I had clung rto a righteousness of observing the ten commandments the sin had continually got worse, now by clinging to a righteousness of faith in Christ, not the moral law, the sin started to decrease. Oh I was so happy Jason, I had my life back. I was happier than I had been in the previous six years, indeed I was happier than I had been before I became a Christian. I didn't feel dirty and ashamed anymore for I had a saviour from my sin. I would raise my arms in the air and praise God with heartfelt thanks. I would dance around the rooms at home, ecstatic for what God had freed me from. For the first time in my life I could love God with all my heart
That is a true story. Sometimes lifes experience is better than just endlessly quoting the literal letter.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

People had visions of Jesus and Heaven, but that does not mean that those visions are true.
Faith does not come by personal experience of what we believe to be right.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).

And the Word of God says,

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1)

"If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9).

"He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy." (Proverbs 28:13).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5).

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4).



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[stuart lawrence]

Y

 

[stuart lawrence]

You know, the problem with the Pharisees was, they continuously quoted the literal letter without understanding the heart of what that letter contained. All they knew was ''Thou shalt not'' And they crushed the people with their demands, demands Jesus tells us they could not live up to in their own life. They had ripped the heart of the Gospel out of their lives. They did not depend on the love, mercy and compassion of God. As Jesus said. They neglected the love of God. And because of only knowing the literal letter, they continuously accused Jesus of being a law breaker.Let us hope people do not make the same mistake today

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, if want personal testimonies of bad things (i.e. bad fruit) as the result of people believing in OSAS (Which confirms the truth of the Word), then here you go:

On August 4th, 2009, 48 year old George Sodini shot 9 people in a Pittsburg Pennsylvania health club. At the time of the writing of this article (August 6th), four people had died to include George by his own self-inflicted gunshot wound.

George Sodini, mass murderer and professed Christian Eternal Securist wrote; “Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.” ​

You can read more about this here:
http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm

Audio Testimonies:
Testimonies of former eternal security believers

Suicide & OSAS:
A tragic story of an OSAS believer.

Hooked on Sin & OSAS:
Out Of Darkness | NO Eternal Security | Christian Testimony


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