True Justification, works of the Law of Moses, & Conditional Security

[stuart lawrence]

I am glad you have a full church. J hope it it is full of spirit filled christians. I know of a well known christian who said he went round different churches in his search for God. He said some of the churches he went to didn't bury the dead, they put them in the pews!
Please don't suggest Catholics live more superior moral lives to protestants. I will say no more unless you wish to go further into the subject.
John was spirit filled and led as were the other writers of the NT.
The greatest power and most rapid growth seen in the christian church was before the emergence of the scholar and theologian, not afterwards!
I lived in a christian community twice predominantly run by Catholics, they were charismatic, really nice people. The true dividing line in Christianity is not according to denomination but the holy spirit. Some churches seek to follow his leading, some don't

 

[Light of the East]

When I became a christian i sat on the edge of my bed deep in thought. There were 6 billion people I the world, most probably smarter than me. And these people who were smarter than me followed different religions, and inside christianity there were so many different beliefs, even among Catholics, some were charadmatics some were not. So how did i fit into the grand scheme of things?
I was afraid I would be like the majority who follow religion and get it wrong( for there is no majority of all religious people who agree)
So i did the only thing I could do. I got down on my knees and asked God to show me truth through the holy spirit who leads believers into truth, and i trusted he would. Does Tha mean I have perfect knowledge, of course not, for I livi in a body of weak flesh and am not perfect. But I do believe I stand on surer ground than someone who does not in their heart rely on the holy spirit to leaf them into truth

I appreciate that you turned to God. But God gave the world His Church as the "pillar and ground of truth" (1 Peter 3:15) for all answers of a theological and moral nature. A very cursory look at the world will show why this is so important.

There are so many who looked to God and prayed for an answer. The founder of Mormonism did just that, begging God to see the truth. So have many others throughout the centuries. Yet salvation and the proper understanding of theology has always been in the Church, starting with Moses in the wilderness.

Much of our problem comes from not submitting to that body which Christ promised would not be overcome by the gates of hell. I myself and wrestling with something very difficult in understanding God, and just like many other people, find it attractive to trust in my own reasoning rather than to submit to the Church. But you know what that is?

The sin of pride. We all have it. We all suffer from it. And our pride leads us astray.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I appreciate that you turned to God. But God gave the world His Church as the "pillar and ground of truth" (1 Peter 3:15) for all answers of a theological and moral nature. A very cursory look at the world will show why this is so important.

There are so many who looked to God and prayed for an answer. The founder of Mormonism did just that, begging God to see the truth. So have many others throughout the centuries. Yet salvation and the proper understanding of theology has always been in the Church, starting with Moses in the wilderness.

Much of our problem comes from not submitting to that body which Christ promised would not be overcome by the gates of hell. I myself and wrestling with something very difficult in understanding God, and just like many other people, find it attractive to trust in my own reasoning rather than to submit to the Church. But you know what that is?

The sin of pride. We all have it. We all suffer from it. And our pride leads us astray.

I understand the way Catholics see the church. And I do not wish to be offensive, but for me the bottom line is the bible, and within the bible what is most important is the Gospel message. Jesus said there was much more he wanted to tell the disciples, more than they could bear, but when the holy spirit came upon them, then they would be led into all truth. Therefore, if we want to fully understand the message of grace we have to read beyond the Gospels. Of what we can term the 21 instructional books of teaching the gospel after the gospels Paul wrote two thirds of them. If we believe the canon was put together under the guidance of the holy spirit, I think it correct to say Paul was chosen as the main preacher of the new covenant to the world by Christ himself.
To me, understand Paul's message and you understand the Gospel.
I would belong to any church of any mainstream denomination that fully and forthrightly preached that message. Denomination would be irrelevant to me then.
I appreciate what you said about pride. I would say that I something the majority of us suffer from on these kinds of websites. We like to think we know the truth and are here to teach others. I admit to that all too often being a lacking on my part.
God bless

 

[Light of the East]

Hello LightoftheEast.

You made a statement that is wholly unsound.

What you seem to misunderstand LofE, is what Paul taught.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves, it is the gift of God

Notice that the word 'saved' is past tense. Also notice please, that this
salvation is a gift, which directly means, you do not earn this salvation.

And I never said that you do. The difference between the heretical Protestant "once saved-always saved" and orthodox Catholic teaching is that we know that salvation is two things: a relationship and a journey. As a relationship, it grows. It is hardly complete at this moment, and for whatever reason He has, God has ordained that we go through this life on a journey of growth into holiness.

But like all relationships, you can leave this one. It's called "free will" and is the basis of a love relationship. Simply put, you cannot love without the exercise of your will, and your will must be free in order to properly love. "Love" at the point of a sword is not love. And like all relationships, we can improve and grow in it, and we can deconstruct it and even walk away from it. Growth is not linear. It walks all over the place. Some days we are just really in love with God and some days.....meaaaaah. His love is constant and never changes. Ours is fickle and changes constantly.

The idea that we are progressing towards a holy state of being, at some future stage is erroneous. We are holy now because Christ is Holy, we have Christ in us, which means we have the very righteousness of Christ.

If you mean that we have that Protestant fantasy called "imputed righteousness," where God looks at us and sees Jesus instead of Luther's dungheaps (what a lovely description of God's children, eh?) then that is dead wrong also. God does not deal in fantasy. He deals with us as we are and not as we imagine ourselves to be in Christ.

Ephesians 2

5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

This verse is also in the past tense, we have already been raised up with Christ, we are now seated in the heavenly realms. You need to fix your gaze on this heavenly reality.

I have no argument with this Scripture. Just remember that in a relationship, we can leave. Let me put it another way. If we are all set in Christ, perfectly righteous and without any need of further righteousness and development in godliness, then why will we show up at the Judgment Seat? Romans 2: 5-10, Rev. 20: 12-14, Matthew 25: 31-46, and John 5: 28-29 all show the good and the bad together for The Judgment. Why, if there is nothing but righteousness in us?

Ephesians 2

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.

Your citizenship has already been granted to you in Christ. Your citizenship is not a future event, you already have the full citizenship.

Are you saying LofE, that we are not citizens of God's household yet?

No. I am saying that the Last Judgment has not taken place yet. Remember, the wheat and tares grow together in the Kingdom. Bad fishies and good fishies. Not even you know the depths of depravity which remain in your own heart, as I do not know that which is in mine. The Judgment will reveal it all and separate the true from the false. Just because you are in the household doesn't mean you get a "Get out of Hell free" card to stick in your wallet.

Judgment first - then glory.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I appreciate that you turned to God. But God gave the world His Church as the "pillar and ground of truth" (1 Peter 3:15) for all answers of a theological and moral nature. A very cursory look at the world will show why this is so important.

There are so many who looked to God and prayed for an answer. The founder of Mormonism did just that, begging God to see the truth. So have many others throughout the centuries. Yet salvation and the proper understanding of theology has always been in the Church, starting with Moses in the wilderness.

Much of our problem comes from not submitting to that body which Christ promised would not be overcome by the gates of hell. I myself and wrestling with something very difficult in understanding God, and just like many other people, find it attractive to trust in my own reasoning rather than to submit to the Church. But you know what that is?

The sin of pride. We all have it. We all suffer from it. And our pride leads us astray.

And I agree with you, many people from many differing religions have read the bible and come to very strange opinions after reading it. I have debated with Muslims. As I did so all I could think was. They were trying to reason the bible minus the holy spirit, they simply used a biased natural mind to try and understand the spiritual.
You see to me, no church in itself is the bottom line for learning, the holy spirit is. He is the one who leads into truth. But I know you do not see it that way

 

[Light of the East]

I understand the way Catholics see the church. And I do not wish to be offensive, but for me the bottom line is the bible, and within the bible what is most important is the Gospel message.

You haven't paid attention to a word I said. The Bible has to be interpreted, and this is where the rubber hits the road. I told you that there are hundreds of various denominations, sects, isms, and cults who all use the Bible and come up with their unique ideas regarding what Jesus said. They are all very, very sure that they are correct, just like that nutjob Harold Camping was that Jesus was going to return in 1994, based on his intense study of the Scriptures. I wonder who he got to wipe the egg off his face when it didn't happen.

Jesus said there was much more he wanted to tell the disciples, more than they could bear, but when the holy spirit came upon them, then they would be led into all truth.

Yeah, that's in John, I believe. And here's the thing - that promise was given to the leadership of the Church, not to every layman who comes along with a shiny, new, leather-bound KJV 1611 tucked under his arm. The leadership of the Church - the bishops of the Church - were promised to be led into these deeper truths. This is why when the heresies of Arianism, Monothellitism, Monophysitism, and other isms came along, it was the bishops who met in the councils of the Church to pray about and sort out the truth. There were no laymen invited and heretics were not welcome once they were discovered.

I would belong to any church of any mainstream denomination Tha fully and forthrightly preached that mesaage. Denomination would be irrelevant to me then.

Well, since you are so convinced of Paul's rightness, let's see what he said about denominations and those who start them:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


You see those words in red? They have to do with shredding the Church by setting up other organizations and then saying that the new organization is really the "true truth." Paul didn't have a very nice view of those who caused strife in the Church and who opposed the leadership of the Church (seditions). Was he kidding when he said that those who do such will not inherit the Kingdom? For the sake of our Protestant friends, I hope so, but these are very stern words.

And here's the problem you have. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth. Not my feelings or yours, not what I think or my rational ideas - the Church. Period. So if I oppose the Church, I am entertaining sedition and variance. If I oppose the leadership of the Church, creating anger against the leadership, I am stirring up strife and wrath. If I refuse to join the Church, claiming that I have studied the Bible and I know better, again that is variance, strife and heresies. The end of such people is not, according to Paul, going to be very good.

I appreciate what you said about pride. I would say that I something the majority of us suffer from on these kinds of websites. We like to think we know the truth and are here to teach others. I admit to Tha all too often being a lacking on my part.

God bless

Then do something about it. Humble yourself and find some good Catholic books and start to investigate the only Church which Jesus left here on the earth for the salvation of souls!

Scott Hahn - A FATHER WHO KEEPS HIS PROMISES

Robert Sungenis - NOT BY FAITH ALONE
NOT BY BREAD ALONE

Those are two good authors to start with.

 

[Light of the East]

And I agree with you, many people from many differing religions have read the bible and come to very strange opinions after reading it. I have debated with Muslims. As I did so all I could think was. They were trying to reason the bible minus the holy spirit, they simply used a biased natural mind to try and understand the spiritual.
You see to me, no church in itself is the bottom line for learning, the holy spirit is. He is the one who leads into truth. But I know you do not see it that way

Here's the problem we all have: each one of us doesn't want to think that the Holy Spirit would take someone else other than ourselves and give that person the gift of infallibility. We want to think that our reasoning, our minds, our thoughts, are the most profound and therefore the most true.

In short - pride.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You haven't paid attention to a word I said. The Bible has to be interpreted, and this is where the rubber hits the road. I told you that there are hundreds of various denominations, sects, isms, and cults who all use the Bible and come up with their unique ideas regarding what Jesus said. They are all very, very sure that they are correct, just like that nutjob Harold Camping was that Jesus was going to return in 1994, based on his intense study of the Scriptures. I wonder who he got to wipe the egg off his face when it didn't happen.



Yeah, that's in John, I believe. And here's the thing - that promise was given to the leadership of the Church, not to every layman who comes along with a shiny, new, leather-bound KJV 1611 tucked under his arm. The leadership of the Church - the bishops of the Church - were promised to be led into these deeper truths. This is why when the heresies of Arianism, Monothellitism, Monophysitism, and other isms came along, it was the bishops who met in the councils of the Church to pray about and sort out the truth. There were no laymen invited and heretics were not welcome once they were discovered.



Well, since you are so convinced of Paul's rightness, let's see what he said about denominations and those who start them:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


You see those words in red? They have to do with shredding the Church by setting up other organizations and then saying that the new organization is really the "true truth." Paul didn't have a very nice view of those who caused strife in the Church and who opposed the leadership of the Church (seditions). Was he kidding when he said that those who do such will not inherit the Kingdom? For the sake of our Protestant friends, I hope so, but these are very stern words.

And here's the problem you have. The Church is the pillar and ground of truth. Not my feelings or yours, not what I think or my rational ideas - the Church. Period. So if I oppose the Church, I am entertaining sedition and variance. If I oppose the leadership of the Church, creating anger against the leadership, I am stirring up strife and wrath. If I refuse to join the Church, claiming that I have studied the Bible and I know better, again that is variance, strife and heresies. The end of such people is not, according to Paul, going to be very good.



Then do something about it. Humble yourself and find some good Catholic books and start to investigate the only Church which Jesus left here on the earth for the salvation of souls!

Scott Hahn - A FATHER WHO KEEPS HIS PROMISES

Robert Sungenis - NOT BY FAITH ALONE
NOT BY BREAD ALONE

Those are two good authors to start with.

What you wrote from Galatians applies to Catholics as well as protestants.
I did read what you wrote. Now can you tell me what the catholic church/ church fathers taught you in the following regard. If you think I should be a catholic this would give you opportunity to prove that to me. Explain what these verses mean for the christian:

Sin is transgression of the law 1 john 3:4

Therefore no one will be declared righteous I Gods sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness apart from law has been made known rom3:20-22

Please explain the implications of those verses to me according to catholic doctrinal belief
Thank you

 

[klutedavid]

Hello LofE.

This Gospel of Jesus Christ is ever so simple.

I quoted the following verse.

19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow
citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household.

Then I stated.

Your citizenship has already been granted to you in Christ. Your
citizenship is not a future event, you already have full citizenship.

Then I asked you.

Are you saying LofE, that we are not citizens of God's household yet?

You answered, 'No'.

So you agree that we have full citizenship.

Then you turn around and contradicted yourself by saying the following.

'the Last Judgment has not taken place yet.'

Which according to you, means that a citizen is truly a citizen, but
also may not be a citizen at the very same time?

Here is the simple Gospel LofE.

Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in
your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Your citizenship is not determined by some hit and miss approach.

Your citizenship is guaranteed by God Himself.

Do you believe that you are saved because you believe and confess?

Paul states 'you will be saved'.

Are you saying LofE, that your salvation is not secure by believing
in Jesus Christ? Are you disagreeing with the apostle Paul?

The Gospel is not a journey, the Gospel is about who you believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm duly impressed! That's quite advanced thinking for a protestant.

Thank you. But again, I am not a Protestant because I reject the name associated with it's History and I reject many of their beliefs. So please stop calling me a Protestant. I do not in any way shape form believe like they do. Yes, there are some beliefs we hold in common. But holding a common belief about something in the Bible does not make me a member of their church or associated with their church name in any way. That would be like someone calling me a Catholic just because I believe in the Trinity and I am against OSAS. It would simply not be true because I do not agree with Catholic's claim on Church Traditions, their view on idolatry, their praying to the dead, their rituals, their Papacy, their confessing of sins to a man, their use of pagan symbols, their amassing of great wealth, their ritual of the Eucharist, etc.

Anyways, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

Now we just have to work on your idea of OSAS.

As far as I am aware of, Catholics do not believe in OSAS. Neither do I. However, this does not mean I feel we are on the same side or that we are associated in any way as true believers, though. For not everyone believes in the same Jesus or Christ as described in the Holy Scriptures.


...

 

[stuart lawrence]

They were simply called christians or the way in the NT. If only we could all be referred to as the same today. But alas

 

[Open Heart]

I am not a Protestant because I reject the name associated with it's History and I reject many of their beliefs. So please stop calling me a Protestant. I do not in any way shape form believe like they do.

Do you think you fit better into the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox camps?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Do you think you fit better into the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox camps?

I think Jason should have a camp all of his own.
Perform perfect or risk the fires of hell comes to mind

 

[ToBeLoved]

And I never said that you do. The difference between the heretical Protestant "once saved-always saved" and orthodox Catholic teaching is that we know that salvation is two things: a relationship and a journey. As a relationship, it grows. It is hardly complete at this moment, and for whatever reason He has, God has ordained that we go through this life on a journey of growth into holiness.

But like all relationships, you can leave this one. It's called "free will" and is the basis of a love relationship. Simply put, you cannot love without the exercise of your will, and your will must be free in order to properly love. "Love" at the point of a sword is not love. And like all relationships, we can improve and grow in it, and we can deconstruct it and even walk away from it. Growth is not linear. It walks all over the place. Some days we are just really in love with God and some days.....meaaaaah. His love is constant and never changes. Ours is fickle and changes constantly.



If you mean that we have that Protestant fantasy called "imputed righteousness," where God looks at us and sees Jesus instead of Luther's dungheaps (what a lovely description of God's children, eh?) then that is dead wrong also. God does not deal in fantasy. He deals with us as we are and not as we imagine ourselves to be in Christ.



I have no argument with this Scripture. Just remember that in a relationship, we can leave. Let me put it another way. If we are all set in Christ, perfectly righteous and without any need of further righteousness and development in godliness, then why will we show up at the Judgment Seat? Romans 2: 5-10, Rev. 20: 12-14, Matthew 25: 31-46, and John 5: 28-29 all show the good and the bad together for The Judgment. Why, if there is nothing but righteousness in us?



No. I am saying that the Last Judgment has not taken place yet. Remember, the wheat and tares grow together in the Kingdom. Bad fishies and good fishies. Not even you know the depths of depravity which remain in your own heart, as I do not know that which is in mine. The Judgment will reveal it all and separate the true from the false. Just because you are in the household doesn't mean you get a "Get out of Hell free" card to stick in your wallet.

Judgment first - then glory.

And let me guess, you confess your sins to a priest and believe that the Pope is God's delegate on the earth?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Do you think you fit better into the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox camps?

If he won't accept protestant I highly doubt that he would accept orothdox or catholicism.

But then I highly suspect that he is self taught and probably does not even attend church at all.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I personally think that those under the Old Covenant were FULLY made perfect just as those under the New Covenant. This is because Christ's sacrifice worked backwards in time as well as forwards.

The New Covenant is a more perfect Covenant. It is the fruition of God's plan of salvation. I agree that Christ's sacrfice works backwards in time, as well. I believe saints in the Old could also cease from sin by the power of God working in them, too (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

The Old Covenant never promised Salvation. The deal God made with the Children of Israel was that they could live in the promised land. You'll notice that heaven is never mentioned in the Torah.

Their names were written in the book of life. So I disagree that they were not saved spiritually. I also believe that the OT saint went to be with the Lord in Paradise or Abraham's Bosom in the heart of the Earth just like the New Testament saint today, too. Well, that is until the Pre-Trib Raptures takes place. After that event, all NT saints will then go directly to Heaven from that point.

The New Covenant does not give us a license to disobey.

I believe the New Covenant saint has to obey the New Covenant Commands in the Bible. But this does not include the Old Covenant Commands, though; Nor would this involve any kind of church traditions (which are man made), either.

Christ said the Law would not pass away until heaven and earth passed away. Last time I checked outside my front door, the earth was still there. Jews must still obey Mosaic law, and Gentiles obey Natural law as described in the NT.

So which Laws did Jesus not fulfill? He said it was finished. So I believe Him. I believe you are confused on this point because the word "Law" was a word in reference to the entire Old Covenant. The word "Law" was just a reference for saying the "Law and the Prophets" (i.e. the entire Old Covenant). Jesus said BEFORE the cross that He came to fulfill the Law. He most certain did fulfill the Law of Moses and nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. Nowhere does it say we are bound to obey the ceremonies or rituals of the Old Covenant in the New Covenant. This lets us know that there was a change of the Law like the Scriptures say (Hebrews 7:12).

So when Jesus said Heaven and Earth sall not pass away from the "Law" or the "Law and the PROPHETS, (i.e. the entire Old Covenant), he was referring to how He would need to fulfill the law of Moses upon the cross and how He would then need to fufill End Times Prophecy with His 2nd Coming and His setting up of the Millennial Kingdom, etc.

For more on how the "Law" was a word in reference to the ENTIRE Old Testament, check out this article here.

https://www.learnthebible.org/law-and-the-prophets.html


....

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thank you. But again, I am not a Protestant because I reject the name associated with it's History and I reject many of their beliefs. So please stop calling me a Protestant. I do not in any way shape form believe like they do. Yes, there are some beliefs we hold in common. But holding a common belief about something in the Bible does not make me a member of their church or associated with their church name in any way. That would be like someone calling me a Catholic just because I believe in the Trinity and I am against OSAS. It would simply not be true because I do not agree with Catholic's claim on Church Traditions, their view on idolatry, their praying to the dead, their rituals, their Papacy, their confessing of sins to a man, their use of pagan symbols, their amassing of great wealth, their ritual of the Eucharist, etc.

Anyways, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.



As far as I am aware of, Catholics do not believe in OSAS. Neither do I. However, this does not mean I feel we are on the same side or that we are associated in any way as true believers, though. For not everyone believes in the same Jesus or Christ as described in the Holy Scriptures.


...

Do you not find it a little odd though that you cannot consider yourself part of any denomination because your beliefs are that different from everyone else?

You should fit in somewhere unless your theology is so messed up. Unless you live on a farm somewhere with no roads you should be able to find like minded people to worship with.

 

[stuart lawrence]

The New Covenant is a more perfect Covenant. It is the fruition of God's plan of salvation. I agree that Christ's sacrfice works backwards in time, as well. I believe saints in the Old could also cease from sin by the power of God working in them, too (Ezekiel 36:26-27).



Their names were written in the book of life. So I disagree that they were not saved spiritually. I also believe that the OT saint went to be with the Lord in Paradise or Abraham's Bosom in the heart of the Earth just like the New Testament saint today, too. Well, that is until the Pre-Trib Raptures takes place. After that event, all NT saints will then go directly to Heaven from that point.



I believe the New Covenant saint has to obey the New Covenant Commands in the Bible. But this does not include the Old Covenant Commands or church traditions, though.



So which Laws did Jesus not fulfill? He said it was finished. So I believe Him. I believe you are confused on this point because the word "Law" was a word in reference to the entire Old Covenant. The word "Law" was just a reference for saying the "Law and the Prophets" (i.e. the entire Old Covenant). Jesus said BEFORE the cross that He came to fulfill the Law. He most certain did fulfill the Law of Moses and nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. Nowhere does it say we are bound to obey the ceremonies or rituals of the Old Covenant in the New Covenant. This lets us know that there was a change of the Law like the Scriptures say (Hebrews 7:12).

So when Jesus said Heaven and Earth sall not pass away from the "Law" or the "Law and the PROPHETS, (i.e. the entire Old Covenant), he was referring to how He would need to fulfill the law of Moses upon the cross and how He would then need to fufill End Times Prophecy with His 2nd Coming and His setting up of the Millennial Kingdom, etc.

For more on how the "Law" was a word in reference to the ENTIRE Old Testament, check out this article here.

https://www.learnthebible.org/law-and-the-prophets.html


....

How was the mosaic law against you Jason, you are a gentile, gentiles were not under it

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If he won't accept protestant I highly doubt that he would accept orothdox or catholicism.

But then I highly suspect that he is self taught and probably does not even attend church at all.

First, no true believer is self taught. All true believers are ultimately taught by the Spirit or God. For the Spirit shall guide us into all truth. Second, show me where New Covenant believers attended a church building as you see it today in Scripture. On the contrary, what you will see in the New Testament is believers gathering in their homes and celebrating the Lord's supper. You will not see regular fellowship involving one man speaking over a large crowd in a large building they call a "church" (When it is God's people who are called the church). There is no board of directors. Even Paul himself did not charge for the gospel. But today, "church" is big business. That is what it is. Fellowship was not a gathering of believers and unbelievers with some kind of altar call. Fellowship was excusively for believers. Evangelism was done by believers going house to house.

Two threads you should check out are:
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/no-one-man-pastor-ministry-over-all.7895370/
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-church-which-meets-in-their-house.7895195/


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[Light of the East]

And let me guess, you confess your sins to a priest and believe that the Pope is God's delegate on the earth?

Since God established the priesthood as His representatives on earth to which we are to confess our sins and recieve forgiveness, then, yes, I do what God established on earth.

The Holy Father is the covenant head of the earthly Church who bears Christ's representative authority. This authority was established by Christ's delegating of His authority to the office of Peter. Just as there is a covenant Head over all Creation, so there must be a head over the earthly Church until the Lord returns. In a covenant, there is always a covenant head who bears authority.