An Open Invite To Talk About The Law And Grace

[rick357]

It has been said as the many verses I always quote show which are not my words but those of scripture. You don't like those verses and love to think we have to keep the law and trust in our good works. Do you believe in the gospel or the good news?

Can you show any post where I have said it is the work of anything other than the Spirit....beside this Paul drew his conclusions about how to walk in grace from the law.....also I have not avoided one verse you have given

 

[fozzy]

Can you show any post where I have said it is the work of anything other than the Spirit....beside this Paul drew his conclusions about how to walk in grace from the law.....also I have not avoided one verse you have given

Yes. The verses that speak of the letter of the law as a bad thing and the law written is stone as a ministry of death. Once again you refuse to admit that there is a difference between the letter and the Spirit of the law.

 

[Steeno7]

Can you show any post where I have said it is the work of anything other than the Spirit....beside this Paul drew his conclusions about how to walk in grace from the law.....also I have not avoided one verse you have given

What? Paul explained his conclusions, drawn directly from the resurrected Christ, by contrasting grace against the law. He did not draw His conclusions about how to walk in grace from the law.

 

[rick357]

Yes. The verses that speak of the letter of the law as a bad thing and the law written is stone as a ministry of death. Once again you refuse to admit that there is a difference between the letter and the Spirit of the law.

I did deal with that verse and the fact that the word is ministration not ministry...and yes in the ministration that comes from men the law is death....but the same law in the ministration of the spirit promises life

 

[rick357]

What? Paul explained his conclusions, drawn directly from the resurrected Christ, by contrasting grace against the law. He did not draw His conclusions about how to walk in grace from the law.

The OT is about grace....do men such as David seem held up by scripture for their Godly works or his grace....name some Gidion...Samson...Abraham....Jacob....to make the list easier are any held up for their law keeping....the message has always been about his grace and his mercy....
Moses told us what God said was right....Jesus showed us how we could be changed to that standered.....is it reasonable that it was wrong to lie...but now it doesnt matter....so we can attain to it being abolished...

As to what is written in the law and prophets Jesus said this....

*[[Luk 24:27]] RNKJV* And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

*[[Joh 5:45-47]] RNKJV*
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

 

[Steeno7]

The OT is about grace....do men such as David seem held up by scripture for their Godly works or his grace....name some Gidion...Samson...Abraham....Jacob....to make the list easier are any held up for their law keeping....the message has always been about his grace and his mercy....
Moses told us what God said was right....Jesus showed us how we could be changed to that standered.....is it reasonable that it was wrong to lie...but now it doesnt matter....so we can attain to it being abolished...

As to what is written in the law and prophets Jesus said this....

*[[Luk 24:27]] RNKJV* And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

*[[Joh 5:45-47]] RNKJV*
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

No, the OT is not about grace. Grace is totally a New Covenant concept. The Hebrew language did not have a word for what we know as the New Covenant concept of grace. Why have a word for that which does not exist in your experience? No one would know what it meant. New covenant "grace" did not exist in the context of the old covenant. John explains in the prologue of his gospel that "grace...was realized in Jesus Christ" (John 1:17); i.e. grace "came into being," "came to pass," "happened" historically in Jesus Christ. That is why they did not have a word for the New Covenant concept of "grace" prior to the time of Jesus Christ, in the Old Testament era.

 

[rick357]

No, the OT is not about grace. Grace is totally a New Covenant concept. The Hebrew language did not have a word for what we know as the New Covenant concept of grace. Why have a word for that which does not exist in your experience? No one would know what it meant. New covenant "grace" did not exist in the context of the old covenant. John explains in the prologue of his gospel that "grace...was realized in Jesus Christ" (John 1:17); i.e. grace "came into being," "came to pass," "happened" historically in Jesus Christ. That is why they did not have a word for the New Covenant concept of "grace" prior to the time of Jesus Christ, in the Old Testament era.

Before I reply lets be clear on what you are saying when you say NT definition of grace if you would give your definition please.

 

[Steeno7]

Before I reply lets be clear on what you are saying when you say NT definition of grace if you would give your definition please.

Sure. What the NT writers were attempting to explain was something "new", the "new and living way" (Heb. 10:20) of the "new covenant" (Heb. 8:8) with the "newness of life" in Christ Jesus (Rom. 6:4). The Greek word charis was the best available and convenient word to try to explain that living reality of Jesus Christ.

 

[rick357]

Sure. What the NT writers were attempting to explain was something "new", the "new and living way" (Heb. 10:20) of the "new covenant" (Heb. 8:8) with the "newness of life" in Christ Jesus (Rom. 6:4). The Greek word charis was the best available and convenient word to try to explain that living reality of Jesus Christ.

So would you say it is the new covenant spoken of by Jeremiah.

 

[Steeno7]

So would you say it is the new covenant spoken of by Jeremiah.

Yes. The new covenant promised through Jeremiah that was inaugurated by the death of Jesus.

 

[rick357]

Yes. The new covenant promised through Jeremiah that was inaugurated by the death of Jesus.

*[[Jer 31:31-37]] RNKJV*
31 Behold, the days come, saith יהוה, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith
יהוה: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith יהוה, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know יהוה: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith יהוה; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith יהוה, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; יהוה of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith יהוה, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith יהוה; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith יהוה.


Have you noticed that your definition of NT grace is to have the law written on your heart and mind...and also that these ordinances shall never pass away....can you not see that this is what Ive been saying grace is....the making of a new man in the Image of Jesus who is himself the image of God.

*[[Heb 10:15-31]] RNKJV*
%v 15% Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
%v 16% This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith יהוה, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
%v 17% And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
%v 18% Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
%v 19% Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Yahushua,
%v 20% By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
%v 21% And having an high priest over the house of יהוה;
%v 22% Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
%v 23% Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
%v 24% And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
%v 25% Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
%v 26% For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
%v 27% But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
%v 28% He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
%v 29% Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of יהוה, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was set apart, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of favour?
%v 30% For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith יהוה. And again, יהוה shall judge his people.
%v 31% It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.


It would seem that to sin under grace is considered a more dangerous act than before...of course Paul defines sin as transgression of the law...

 

[Steeno7]

*[[Jer 31:31-37]] RNKJV*
31 Behold, the days come, saith יהוה, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith
יהוה: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith יהוה, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their Elohim, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know יהוה: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith יהוה; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith יהוה, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; יהוה of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith יהוה, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith יהוה; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith יהוה.


Have you noticed that your definition of NT grace is to have the law written on your heart and mind...and also that these ordinances shall never pass away....can you not see that this is what Ive been saying grace is....the making of a new man in the Image of Jesus who is himself the image of God.

*[[Heb 10:15-31]] RNKJV*
%v 15% Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
%v 16% This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith יהוה, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
%v 17% And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
%v 18% Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
%v 19% Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Yahushua,
%v 20% By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
%v 21% And having an high priest over the house of יהוה;
%v 22% Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
%v 23% Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
%v 24% And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
%v 25% Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
%v 26% For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
%v 27% But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
%v 28% He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
%v 29% Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of יהוה, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was set apart, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of favour?
%v 30% For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith יהוה. And again, יהוה shall judge his people.
%v 31% It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.


It would seem that to sin under grace is considered a more dangerous act than before...of course Paul defines sin as transgression of the law...

To summarize, for you, grace is the law and it written on your heart. Isn't that pretty much it? That is not my definition.

My definition of grace is the new and unique activity of God in Jesus Christ. And it cannot be separated from the Person of Christ. It is not a commodity that is handed out. If you look at Paul you see that for him Grace and Christ are synonymous, there is no Christ without Grace, and there is no Grace without Christ.

 

[rick357]

To summarize, for you, grace is the law and it written on your heart. Isn't that pretty much it? That is not my definition.

My definition of grace is the new and unique activity of God in Jesus Christ. And it cannot be separated from the Person of Christ. It is not a commodity that is handed out. If you look at Paul you see that for him Grace and Christ are synonymous, there is no Christ without Grace, and there is no Grace without Christ.

I have also agreed on this point when we spoke of the ministration of the covenant....the only way to walk in the new is for christ to walk it through you....I have said this from the start..

.the law is like fire...use it in a wrong way....as a means of justification or a system to obtain righteousness and at best it will burn you at worst it consumes you.
But used correctly it teaches you who christ is making you...a promise of the results of his work in you....and a light to show you if you are trusting him or yourself.

 

[Steeno7]

I have also agreed on this point when we spoke of the ministration of the covenant....the only way to walk in the new is for christ to walk it through you....I have said this from the start..

.the law is like fire...use it in a wrong way....as a means of justification or a system to obtain righteousness and at best it will burn you at worst it consumes you.
But used correctly it teaches you who christ is making you...a promise of the results of his work in you....and a light to show you if you are trusting him or yourself.

Yes, you use some of the right words, but then you turn right around and negate them all by doing what you just did in this very post...placing yourself right back under the law and encouraging others to do likewise. Using the law as a light to show you if you are trusting Him or yourself is to use law as your guideline on how well you are doing. The same thing the Jews did, and the result will be the same for you; you will either end up feeling pretty good about yourself (pride) or you will feel pretty bad about yourself (pity). Neither one of which is a positive result. That is an improper use of the law.

The law is not what teaches us, grace is what teaches us. "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, teaching us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age". Titus 2:11-12

 

[rick357]

Yes, you use some of the right words, but then you turn right around and negate them all by doing what you just did in this very post...placing yourself right back under the law and encouraging others to do likewise. Using the law as a light to show you if you are trusting Him or yourself is to use law as your guideline on how well you are doing. The same thing the Jews did, and the result will be the same for you; you will either end up feeling pretty good about yourself (pride) or you will feel pretty bad about yourself (pity). Neither one of which is a positive result. That is an improper use of the law.

The law is not what teaches us, grace is what teaches us. "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, teaching us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age". Titus 2:11-12

*[[2Ti 3:15-17]] RNKJV*
%v 15% And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Yahushua the Messiah.
%v 16% All scripture is given by inspiration of יהוה, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
%v 17% That the man of יהוה may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Same author wrote these verses also...the scripture timothy would have heard from his youth would be OT as none of NT had been written ten years earlyier.

Or has the OT stoped being scripture also...Paul quotes it constantly along with Jesus....

 

[Steeno7]

*[[2Ti 3:15-17]] RNKJV*
%v 15% And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Yahushua the Messiah.
%v 16% All scripture is given by inspiration of יהוה, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
%v 17% That the man of יהוה may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Same author wrote these verses also...the scripture timothy would have heard from his youth would be OT as none of NT had been written ten years earlyier.

Or has the OT stoped being scripture also...Paul quotes it constantly along with Jesus....

Because all of it points us to Christ, not back onto itself. "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life." John 5:39-40

 

[rick357]

Because all of it points us to Christ, not back onto itself. "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me, yet you refuse to come to Me to have life." John 5:39-40

To apply that verse to me is to say I have rejected christ as Gods salvation...I have not...what I do believe is I am saved from sin death and their bondage by Christ living in me and me crucified with him....but if you have not noticed I have not called your salvation or or your love for God into question....instead I am encouraging you to believe in all the life God has purchased for you free from anything that hinderes you from running your race

 

[Steeno7]

To apply that verse to me is to say I have rejected christ as Gods salvation...I have not...what I do believe is I am saved from sin death and their bondage by Christ living in me and me crucified with him....but if you have not noticed I have not called your salvation or or your love for God into question....instead I am encouraging you to believe in all the life God has purchased for you free from anything that hinderes you from running your race

Nonsense. I applied that scripture to your appeal to the Timothy passage in support of your position. If you believe all those things then let go of the law and live in the grace of Christ Jesus. You don't need to keep score, you just need Him.

 

[rick357]

Nonsense. I applied that scripture to your appeal to the Timothy passage in support of your position. If you believe all those things then let go of the law and live in the grace of Christ Jesus. You don't need to keep score, you just need Him.

He is certainly all I need but he gives me more than I understand or can concieve of ....
the law teaches me the fullness of what he has done.

 

[Steeno7]

He is certainly all I need but he gives me more than I understand or can concieve of the law teaches me the fullness of what he has done.

Okie dokie then.