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Just reading the updates to this thread . very good conversation . very edifying
Thank you .
Thank you .
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Thank You! For this explaination, but where is the Holy Spirit in all this? If we are all being lead by one Spirit, would we not all become one and in agreement to all true doctrine?
John 17:20-21 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."
The world does not believe because of our divisions, and those divisions are manmade and not scriptural or spiritual.
Acts 5:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
but where is the Holy Spirit in all this?
If we are all being lead by one Spirit, would we not all become one and in agreement to all true doctrine?
Well, being Pentecostal and Reformed the Spirit takes a HUGE role for me. He should be key in the whole process. Problem is tho that the moves of the Spirit can be too subjective. I trust that the move of the Spirit will not contradict the objectivity of the Word of God . . . so if some "nudge" that I recieve in my own spirit does not line with what I know is sound doctrine (like something saying Jesus isnt really God at all) I kno it is not the Spirit at all.
You would think we would but the problem is two fold:
1. The move of the Spirit being experiential is HIGHLY subjective and subject and therefore retains a place of lower authority than the revealed word of God.
See here:
1 Cor 12:3
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
NASU
Someone had something that they thought was of the Spirit . . . but what was the test as to its legitimacy? Doctrine, orthodoxy concerning the person of Jesus. (there are other examples too)
So any impetus that we receive needs to be filtered first. This fact that people ignore, causes division and also causes difference of opinion as to interpretation as well.
2. The falleness of man makes flesh an active part of the whole process and where the flesh is discord abounds.
I dont think Jesus' prayer here is prophecy . . . I think it is an expression to the Father recorded for us to see what He wants . . . but what God desires does not always happen. His sovereign decreed will sure it will always come to pass . . . but desire is different than decree. I sin daily in ways that God does not want me to . . . and God states He wants all to be saved, but not all will.
Given these two factors, John 17 should be a reality in any given local church amongst leadership, but not necessarily the whole church worldwide.
Just reading the updates to this thread . very good conversation . very edifying
Thank you .
Perhaps if you were able to share with us how you've been edified, others might be edified as well from what you've gained? I don't want to put you on the spot, please do not feel compelled to respond without the Holy Spirit leading you. I just thought that perhaps you can help someone else in understanding.
My theology is multiple strings of parallels . like bycycle spokes .
in seeing other points of view i can refine the wheel that my thinking is based on .
Most people, I am saying this because I believe I am not unlike most people, experience the Holy Spirit first before they are able to understand scripture. It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.
One can read Holy Scripture based on the knowledge of man, but without the Holy Spirit the knowledged gained is not from GOD but from man, and this knowledge is essentially spiritually inept.
So what you are saying is that this base spiritual/scriptural study via the Holy Spirit is for the leaders of the church alone and not necessary for all believers? Am I understanding what you are saying? Or perhaps I am still confused? Honestly I do think I am.
I understand fully that if one experiences something that is not doctrinal in my mind this should send out red flags and in my mind it does. I believe that GOD has reserved HIS WORD for all generations and specifically for this last (I say this because in the past not all believers where educated to read scripture, it was read to them).
However, you can go to any book store and pick up a bible that is so far from what the original scriptural text is saying. Man has changed it to a point that it says what man wants it to in many cases. However, I've found that even with the Holy Spirits guidance the spirit of those words will come out no matter how much man messes with the meaning of the text. And it is based on GOOD only, that which benifits the reader non spiritually is futile, the words must be read and digested spiritually in order to assertain GOD's meaning, and the Spirit is what will tell you that something is just not right. I believe this is why Paul says the following:
Galatians 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Relying on doctine alone for interpretation because our ways are not higher than HIS, I can see as a downfall for mankind. Relying on the Spirit, if one truly does this without relying on self knowledge, I believe the Holy Spirit is suffice in aiding in comprehending what is right and what is wrong, because I know from experience that HE does talk to us via this avenue.
I believe that interpretation of the 'leaders' in the past (specifically Israel) was degraded due to their lack of spiritual guidance and I also believe that this spiitual guidance has always been available to all of GOD's creation. We see this in the forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc.... where Scripture was never available, yet they knew and followed GOD's commands.
I have to disagree, I believe that the Spirit is far more powerfull than any written word, because it speaks to the heart of the matter and not to the mind of the matter. As I also believe that without the guidance of the Holy Spirit scriptural interpretation is useless. There is no doubt in my mind that the differences in doctrine is from non unity in the Spirit.
Pardon my ignorance in comprehension and I thank you for bearing with me in explaination.
experience the Holy Spirit first before they are able to understand scripture
It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.
One can read Holy Scripture based on the knowledge of man, but without the Holy Spirit the knowledged gained is not from GOD but from man, and this knowledge is essentially spiritually inept.
So what you are saying is that this base spiritual/scriptural study via the Holy Spirit is for the leaders of the church alone and not necessary for all believers? Am I understanding what you are saying? Or perhaps I am still confused? Honestly I do think I am.
and the Spirit is what will tell you that something is just not right.
I believe this is why Paul says the following:
Galatians 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Relying on doctine alone for interpretation because our ways are not higher than HIS, I can see as a downfall for mankind.
Relying on the Spirit, if one truly does this without relying on self knowledge, I believe the Holy Spirit is suffice in aiding in comprehending what is right and what is wrong, because I know from experience that HE does talk to us via this avenue.
I have to disagree, I believe that the Spirit is far more powerfull than any written word, because it speaks to the heart of the matter and not to the mind of the matter.
Be careful, there are the sovereign moves of God where He does not require the submission of man in the revelation of understanding, Saul of Tarsus is one such example . . . so this is not the "only" way. It is ONE of the ways, and probably the most common.
First I want to say thank you brother so much for your indepth and sincere illustrations and words. I didn't have much issue in partially comprehending all you said (ie your seed has been planted). But the following I have major missunderstanding of, and would ask that you expound on #1 why you urge me to be careful.
I had made the following statement:
'It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'
#2. I do not understand why your reference to Paul, can you also please explain this?
May GOD BLESS!
This is why I stated God's own leading as having to come first. And personally, I believe that too happened in the case of Paul and after it brought Paul submitting to and doing GOD's WILL. Apart from HIS WILL nothing can be accomplished. If we do not acknowledge HIM, HIS hands are literally tied because HE cannot/willnot force us to do anything other than face the truth in the end if we do not face it now.
I believe that too happened in the case of Paul and after it brought Paul submitting to and doing GOD's WILL.
If we do not acknowledge HIM, HIS hands are literally tied because HE cannot/willnot force us to do anything
other than face the truth in the end if we do not face it now
He is not going to force the sinner not to sin. Love will never force anything.
Acts 26:14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Matthew Henry's Commentary
26:12-23 Paul was made a Christian by Divine power; by a revelation of Christ both to him and in him; when in the full career of his sin. He was made a minister by Divine authority: the same Jesus who appeared to him in that glorious light, ordered him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. A world that sits in darkness must be enlightened; those must be brought to know the things that belong to their everlasting peace, who are yet ignorant of them. A world that lies in wickedness must be sanctified and reformed; it is not enough for them to have their eyes opened, they must have their hearts renewed; not enough to be turned from darkness to light, but they must be turned from the power of Satan unto God. All who are turned from sin to God, are not only pardoned, but have a grant of a rich inheritance. The forgiveness of sins makes way for this. None can be happy who are not holy; and to be saints in heaven we must be first saints on earth. We are made holy, and saved by faith in Christ; by which we rely upon Christ as the Lord our Righteousness, and give up ourselves to him as the Lord our Ruler; by this we receive the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and eternal life. The cross of Christ was a stumbling-block to the Jews, and they were in a rage at Paul's preaching the fulfilling of the Old Testament predictions. Christ should be the first that should rise from the dead; the Head or principal One. Also, it was foretold by the prophets, that the Gentiles should be brought to the knowledge of God by the Messiah; and what in this could the Jews justly be displeased at? Thus the true convert can give a reason of his hope, and a good account of the change manifest in him. Yet for going about and calling on men thus to repent and to be converted, vast numbers have been blamed and persecuted.
His kicking against the goads was a kicking against GOD, this rebellion you speak of. It took GOD to come to him to show him that, and to turn him to do GOD's WILL.
I am not talking about what Paul did before GOD's coming to him, because we all do the same or similair to the same before HE comes to us. And it takes GOD's coming to us and renewing our hearts for us to turn. Unless GOD comes to us and we willingly turn from our evil, HE can do nothing for us, because it takes our humbleness and repentance to turn to HIM.
John 6:44-45 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."
He is not going to force the sinner not to sin.
Love will never force anything.
His kicking against the goads was a kicking against GOD, this rebellion you speak of. It took GOD to come to him to show him that, and to turn him to do GOD's WILL.
I am not talking about what Paul did before GOD's coming to him
because we all do the same or similair to the same before HE comes to us.
And it takes GOD's coming to us and renewing our hearts for us to turn
Unless GOD comes to us and we willingly turn from our evil, HE can do nothing for us, because it takes our humbleness and repentance to turn to HIM.
I will openly admit that I am no where near as brilliant as you are.
I do now understand why I must be carefull about the statement that God's hands are tied. Because I do know that all will be forced in the end to bow before and be judged by the WORD of GOD.
My original Statement:
'It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'
As per you must now be changed to say:
'It is only by GOD's own leading, than by us choosing to submit to that leading, only then can HE make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'
Is this about right? All of this back and forth over a word?
In my mind, by my stating 'and our submission to that leading' should imply that HE must first lead.
Okay now, hopefully we are back on topic?
What is sound doctrin?
Biblically, there are three modes of discernment
1. Doctrine
2. Corporate discernment within the church (usually from seasoned saints)
3. The internal "nudges" of the Spirit
This all started because we disagree as to what comes first:
I still say:
1. Spirit (Heavenly Father).
2. Doctrine (Our Heavenly Fathers WORD, whom is Christ Jesus in the flesh)
3. Unity in truth.
I am sorry that I still see it this way, but I do.
No one comes to the Word of GOD accept by the Spiritual leading from Our Heavenly Father.
I do appreciate your time here in explaination, even though (because you have been more blessed than I in the word knowledge department) it takes me a bit of re-reading to even comprehend where exactly you are coming from. I feel like a hillbilly, which compared to you I probably am lol.
May GOD bless you Brother!
Nat
still say:
1. Spirit (Heavenly Father).
2. Doctrine (Our Heavenly Fathers WORD, whom is Christ Jesus in the flesh)
3. Unity in truth.
I am sorry that I still see it this way, but I do.
I do understand where you are coming from, and it is why I said if someone truly walks in the Spirit, and therein is the key. It is my belief that we are drawn to the word (The Spirit makes us yearn to know HIM better), therefore until we are drawn to the Word by the Spirit, revelations cannot be made known to us no matter how much others share the word with us.
I personally have a relative who says that God wants him to be happy, so he left his wife. It is wrong what he has done, but no amount of me preaching what the word says will change his actions. The Spirit must first lead him personally to honor the Word of GOD. I do not participate nor condone anything that comes from the mindset of 'If it feels good do it!", especially not when it goes against HIS word. But having been there and done that, unknowingly in many cases, because I had yet not been drawn to the Word, I can't judge anyone based on it, I can only share. And I do believe that sins commited in ignorance are covered by the blood of Christ.
May GOD continue to bless you as you continue to seek HIM.
Nat
It is wrong what he has done, but no amount of me preaching what the word says will change his actions. The Spirit must first lead him personally to honor the Word of GOD.