What is SOUND DOCTRINE?

Mathetes the kerux

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Thank You! For this explaination, but where is the Holy Spirit in all this? If we are all being lead by one Spirit, would we not all become one and in agreement to all true doctrine?

John 17:20-21 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me."

The world does not believe because of our divisions, and those divisions are manmade and not scriptural or spiritual.

Acts 5:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.

but where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Well, being Pentecostal and Reformed the Spirit takes a HUGE role for me. He should be key in the whole process. Problem is tho that the moves of the Spirit can be too subjective. I trust that the move of the Spirit will not contradict the objectivity of the Word of God . . . so if some "nudge" that I recieve in my own spirit does not line with what I know is sound doctrine (like something saying Jesus isnt really God at all) I kno it is not the Spirit at all.

If we are all being lead by one Spirit, would we not all become one and in agreement to all true doctrine?

You would think we would but the problem is two fold:

1. The move of the Spirit being experiential is HIGHLY subjective and subject and therefore retains a place of lower authority than the revealed word of God.

See here:

1 Cor 12:3
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
NASU

Someone had something that they thought was of the Spirit . . . but what was the test as to its legitimacy? Doctrine, orthodoxy concerning the person of Jesus. (there are other examples too)

So any impetus that we receive needs to be filtered first. This fact that people ignore, causes division and also causes difference of opinion as to interpretation as well.

2. The falleness of man makes flesh an active part of the whole process and where the flesh is discord abounds.

I dont think Jesus' prayer here is prophecy . . . I think it is an expression to the Father recorded for us to see what He wants . . . but what God desires does not always happen. His sovereign decreed will sure it will always come to pass . . . but desire is different than decree. I sin daily in ways that God does not want me to . . . and God states He wants all to be saved, but not all will.

Given these two factors, John 17 should be a reality in any given local church amongst leadership, but not necessarily the whole church worldwide.
 
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NatalieJan777

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Well, being Pentecostal and Reformed the Spirit takes a HUGE role for me. He should be key in the whole process. Problem is tho that the moves of the Spirit can be too subjective. I trust that the move of the Spirit will not contradict the objectivity of the Word of God . . . so if some "nudge" that I recieve in my own spirit does not line with what I know is sound doctrine (like something saying Jesus isnt really God at all) I kno it is not the Spirit at all.



You would think we would but the problem is two fold:

1. The move of the Spirit being experiential is HIGHLY subjective and subject and therefore retains a place of lower authority than the revealed word of God.

See here:

1 Cor 12:3
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
NASU

Someone had something that they thought was of the Spirit . . . but what was the test as to its legitimacy? Doctrine, orthodoxy concerning the person of Jesus. (there are other examples too)

So any impetus that we receive needs to be filtered first. This fact that people ignore, causes division and also causes difference of opinion as to interpretation as well.

2. The falleness of man makes flesh an active part of the whole process and where the flesh is discord abounds.

I dont think Jesus' prayer here is prophecy . . . I think it is an expression to the Father recorded for us to see what He wants . . . but what God desires does not always happen. His sovereign decreed will sure it will always come to pass . . . but desire is different than decree. I sin daily in ways that God does not want me to . . . and God states He wants all to be saved, but not all will.

Given these two factors, John 17 should be a reality in any given local church amongst leadership, but not necessarily the whole church worldwide.

Pardon my ignorance in comprehension and I thank you for bearing with me in explaination.

Most people, I am saying this because I believe I am not unlike most people, experience the Holy Spirit first before they are able to understand scripture. It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.

One can read Holy Scripture based on the knowledge of man, but without the Holy Spirit the knowledged gained is not from GOD but from man, and this knowledge is essentially spiritually inept.

So what you are saying is that this base spiritual/scriptural study via the Holy Spirit is for the leaders of the church alone and not necessary for all believers? Am I understanding what you are saying? Or perhaps I am still confused? Honestly I do think I am.

I understand fully that if one experiences something that is not doctrinal in my mind this should send out red flags and in my mind it does. I believe that GOD has reserved HIS WORD for all generations and specifically for this last (I say this because in the past not all believers where educated to read scripture, it was read to them).

However, you can go to any book store and pick up a bible that is so far from what the original scriptural text is saying. Man has changed it to a point that it says what man wants it to in many cases. However, I've found that even with the Holy Spirits guidance the spirit of those words will come out no matter how much man messes with the meaning of the text. And it is based on GOOD only, that which benifits the reader non spiritually is futile, the words must be read and digested spiritually in order to assertain GOD's meaning, and the Spirit is what will tell you that something is just not right. I believe this is why Paul says the following:

Galatians 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Relying on doctine alone for interpretation because our ways are not higher than HIS, I can see as a downfall for mankind. Relying on the Spirit, if one truly does this without relying on self knowledge, I believe the Holy Spirit is suffice in aiding in comprehending what is right and what is wrong, because I know from experience that HE does talk to us via this avenue.

I believe that interpretation of the 'leaders' in the past (specifically Israel) was degraded due to their lack of spiritual guidance and I also believe that this spiitual guidance has always been available to all of GOD's creation. We see this in the forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc.... where Scripture was never available, yet they knew and followed GOD's commands.

I have to disagree, I believe that the Spirit is far more powerfull than any written word, because it speaks to the heart of the matter and not to the mind of the matter. As I also believe that without the guidance of the Holy Spirit scriptural interpretation is useless. There is no doubt in my mind that the differences in doctrine is from non unity in the Spirit.
 
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NatalieJan777

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Just reading the updates to this thread . very good conversation . very edifying

Thank you . :)

Perhaps if you were able to share with us how you've been edified, others might be edified as well from what you've gained? I don't want to put you on the spot, please do not feel compelled to respond without the Holy Spirit leading you. I just thought that perhaps you can help someone else in understanding.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Perhaps if you were able to share with us how you've been edified, others might be edified as well from what you've gained? I don't want to put you on the spot, please do not feel compelled to respond without the Holy Spirit leading you. I just thought that perhaps you can help someone else in understanding.

My theology is multiple strings of parallels . like bycycle spokes .

in seeing other points of view i can refine the wheel that my thinking is based on .
 
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NatalieJan777

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My theology is multiple strings of parallels . like bycycle spokes .

in seeing other points of view i can refine the wheel that my thinking is based on .

Perhaps there are others out there with your unique theology and their wheels need refinement as well? Just saying ...... It's all cool though, either way.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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Most people, I am saying this because I believe I am not unlike most people, experience the Holy Spirit first before they are able to understand scripture. It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.

One can read Holy Scripture based on the knowledge of man, but without the Holy Spirit the knowledged gained is not from GOD but from man, and this knowledge is essentially spiritually inept.

So what you are saying is that this base spiritual/scriptural study via the Holy Spirit is for the leaders of the church alone and not necessary for all believers? Am I understanding what you are saying? Or perhaps I am still confused? Honestly I do think I am.

I understand fully that if one experiences something that is not doctrinal in my mind this should send out red flags and in my mind it does. I believe that GOD has reserved HIS WORD for all generations and specifically for this last (I say this because in the past not all believers where educated to read scripture, it was read to them).

However, you can go to any book store and pick up a bible that is so far from what the original scriptural text is saying. Man has changed it to a point that it says what man wants it to in many cases. However, I've found that even with the Holy Spirits guidance the spirit of those words will come out no matter how much man messes with the meaning of the text. And it is based on GOOD only, that which benifits the reader non spiritually is futile, the words must be read and digested spiritually in order to assertain GOD's meaning, and the Spirit is what will tell you that something is just not right. I believe this is why Paul says the following:

Galatians 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Relying on doctine alone for interpretation because our ways are not higher than HIS, I can see as a downfall for mankind. Relying on the Spirit, if one truly does this without relying on self knowledge, I believe the Holy Spirit is suffice in aiding in comprehending what is right and what is wrong, because I know from experience that HE does talk to us via this avenue.

I believe that interpretation of the 'leaders' in the past (specifically Israel) was degraded due to their lack of spiritual guidance and I also believe that this spiitual guidance has always been available to all of GOD's creation. We see this in the forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob etc.... where Scripture was never available, yet they knew and followed GOD's commands.

I have to disagree, I believe that the Spirit is far more powerfull than any written word, because it speaks to the heart of the matter and not to the mind of the matter. As I also believe that without the guidance of the Holy Spirit scriptural interpretation is useless. There is no doubt in my mind that the differences in doctrine is from non unity in the Spirit.

Pardon my ignorance in comprehension and I thank you for bearing with me in explaination.

^_^

Group Hug!:groupray::hug:

No pardon needed!

experience the Holy Spirit first before they are able to understand scripture

Yes the spiritual comprehension that you refer to later. BUT, many comprehend the logic and arguements of the scripture and do not believe also. It is, as you say, the spiritual understanding that we want and that we are now speaking of. There is a difference between the understanding of an arguement (whether you agree with the premise or not) and their is the internalization of truth which brings change . . . we are indeed speaking of the latter.

It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.

Be careful, there are the sovereign moves of God where He does not require the submission of man in the revelation of understanding, Saul of Tarsus is one such example . . . so this is not the "only" way. It is ONE of the ways, and probably the most common.

One can read Holy Scripture based on the knowledge of man, but without the Holy Spirit the knowledged gained is not from GOD but from man, and this knowledge is essentially spiritually inept.

True. However this is not what I am referring to. I am referring to the normal mode of understanding of communication that God has already gifted men with.

As I type u understand that "T" makes a "tuh" sound . . . the Spirit coupled with the gift of intelligence that God has given man (above that of beasts) is a very viable mode of the Spirit's revelation as well. Dont get me wrong . . . I am all for the special modes of moving with the goosebumps and the whispers and the visions . . . I have had them myself. But there is also the mode of:

Isa 1:18
"Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the LORD,
NASU


Where the mode is not as "supernatural" ISH as some moves of the Spirit, but is still the Spirit none the less.

So what you are saying is that this base spiritual/scriptural study via the Holy Spirit is for the leaders of the church alone and not necessary for all believers? Am I understanding what you are saying? Or perhaps I am still confused? Honestly I do think I am.

No not at all. My comments about leadership are concerning the unity of John 17. If I endeavor to plant a church, but my leadership under me is all over the map doctrinally, on prime, second and teriary matters then we will accomplish nothing. A cohesive doctrinal agreement must be settled upon for ministry together IN A CHURCH. Matters of primary importance one should not even consider another a brother or sister in Christ (like "christians" who say they dont believe Jesus is God, or that He never rose from the dead), but secondary and some tertiary issues there should be agreement within the leadership gathered around what most churches call a "doctrinal statement" . . . and anyone seeking membership should also be in full agreement with these distinctives . . . tho simple attendance to a service should not require this at all.

and the Spirit is what will tell you that something is just not right.

True, but this is only 1 part of the equation.

Biblically, there are three modes of discernment

1. Doctrine
2. Corporate discernment within the church (usually from seasoned saints)
3. The internal "nudges" of the Spirit

And I would put them in that order. The reason why, is because what most people deem the "Spirit" telling them something can EASILY be misconstrued with ones own internal voice, ones own fallen conscience and even Satan or a demon.

IE
I was at a theme park with a number of students on a church outing. One of them lost a handbook/planner that had all kinds of important info in it . . . Credit Cards, bank card, SS Card, etc.
We prayed, and the voice that I heard within, which I had heard time and time again and had actually been the Spirit of God, told me "it is over (such and such area)" . . . so we went, and guess what? It was NOT there. What is the lesson?
Sure we listen to the "voice" of the Spirit (internally, through others, other random means [had Him speak to me from TV shows before ^_^]) . . . but that voice must not carry the same weight as the doctrinal truths that we know from the Scripture. Reason? the filter of the voices that we hear inside and catch and discern with the heart ARE STILL FILTERED THROUGH US . . .

1 Cor 13:9
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
NASU


Interestingly, prophecy is done by the SPirit . . . yet Paul says it is IN PART . . . why? Because the fulness of ANY revelation will be eclipsed by the FULLEST revelation of the Person of Jesus . . . we have yet to see this so we remain "in part" and

1 Cor 13:12
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly
NASU

so we trust the doctrine more than the subjective "inklings" of the Spirit . . . though we dont discard them either (remember I am Pentecostal!).

I believe this is why Paul says the following:

Galatians 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

There is a hermeneutic in this verse tho that defines what Paul means by "walk by the Spirit"

Gal 5:16-17
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
NASU


Gal 5:24, 25
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
NASU

Where it refers not merely to the following of the leading of the Spirit, but PARTICULARLY to the crucifixon of the flesh and its desires. This verse does not have in view the everyday "leadings" of the Spirit in say, oh, "go down this street" or "dont watch that program" but rather is referring to the particular leading of the smiting of sin in the person. Hence the whole context of freedom verses law and the lists of fruit and sins just prior to v 24.

So here is a case in point! One may read this verse and say "oh this is referring to my obedience to mowing the lawn today! If I obey I am living by the Spirit!" . . . but that is a misapplication and understanding of the text. That is a subjective move upon the soul/spirit of the person that is investing an authoritative meaning to text. The text can be applied that way, but that is NOT what Paul is saying.

He is, per context, saying, under the greater context of the Galatian problem (seeking justification through works), that true freedom does not come from observing laws and rites, but through the crucifixion (putting to death) of the deeds of the flesh which results in the fruit of the Spirit against which there is NO law thus true freedom resides in the pathway to cultivating the fruit of the Spirit.

Now one can see the deeper meaning of the text . . . while "mowing the lawn" may be an application of the text . . . it is ONLY a valid application if the act of mowing the lawn involves the putting to death a desire or cry of sinfulness in the flesh (like say laziness) resulting in the fruit of righteousness (say the Spirit enable joy where bitterness and laziness would have remained EVEN IF THE ACT WAS STILL DONE). So the text, and sound doctrine, show us that mowing the lawn as an act of obedience in and of itself is not sufficient. There must also be the killing of some sinful desire and the birth of a fruit. Now the person who wants to mow the lawn, does not just mow the lawn and then say "hah! I have walked by the SPirit today!" . . . rather, they examine their heart "what sinful tendency do I have that, when mowing the lawn, I can pray and say 'My good and faithful God, put to rest in me ____' and then focus on what the Spirit instead births within?" and then they do so, and say, laziness, is the root that the Spirit then quickens (in line with the sound doctrinal exposition of the text) and patience is the virtue that the Spirit grows.

THAT would be a correct application of that text. I would even go further and link the whole thing explicitly to the cross and root it in the Gospel of the Cross so that one is COMPLETELY dependent upon Christ's work on Calvary and His AMAZING GRACE for the transformation.:thumbsup:

Relying on doctine alone for interpretation because our ways are not higher than HIS, I can see as a downfall for mankind.

Sure. But that is not what I am advocating.:) I agree that doctrine alone makes religion and religion kills by itself . . . piety without relationship makes a Pharisee.

Relying on the Spirit, if one truly does this without relying on self knowledge, I believe the Holy Spirit is suffice in aiding in comprehending what is right and what is wrong, because I know from experience that HE does talk to us via this avenue.

Sure, but that voice still must be tested. Prophecy is of the Spirit right? Indeed. Yet when one prophesies Paul says what?

1 Cor 14:29-33
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.

Judgement on what? The legitimacy of the prophecy . . . same root as "discern" . . . so even the special move of the Spirit needs to be tested . . . why? because our "feelings" and "perceptions" are notoriously untrust worthy . . . BUT THEY ARE STILL LEGITIMATE. If they were NOT legitimate then prophecy would be moot . . . but they are legit, but because they are also fallible (subject to error) they must also be tested. Hence John

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God
NASU

I have to disagree, I believe that the Spirit is far more powerfull than any written word, because it speaks to the heart of the matter and not to the mind of the matter.

Sure in Himself . . . but we are not speaking of the Spirit in a vacuum where it is He and He alone who does some miracle. We are speaking of YOUR perception of what you THINK AND FEEL the Spirit is saying or leading you in. The flaw is not in the Spirit, the flaw is in the person who perceives . . . and we are ALL fallible.

You see the Scripture (graphe) is given a HIGH place in the role of the believers relationship with God because IT, unlike ANY OTHER MOVE OF THE SPIRIT is called theopneustos, or, Godbreathed:

2 Tim 3:13-17
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God (theopneustos) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
NASU

Which Paul sees as the source of the authority for the young Timothy . . . no internal subjective move of the Spirit . . . Paul does not say "follow the leading of the Spirit" does he? no, not that Timothy should not, for Paul also says:

2 Tim 1:6
6 For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands.
NASU
2 Tim 1:14
14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.
NASU
1 Tim 1:18-19
18 This command I entrust to you, Timothy,my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
NASU

Where Paul encourages Tim to keep the subjective impartations of the Spirit ALSO.

It is BOTH AND. But the FIRST place of authority lies with the Scripture and the doctrine thereof.
 
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stelow

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Acts (8:26-40)
26 But an angel of the Lord spoke to Philip saying, “Arise and go south to the road that descends from Jerusalem to Gaza.” (This is a desert road.) 27 And he arose and went; and behold, there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure; and he had come to Jerusalem to worship.
28 And he was returning and sitting in his chariot, and was reading the prophet Isaiah.
29And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go up and join this chariot.”
30 And when Philip had run up, he heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: “HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.
33”IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO SHALL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH.”
34 And the eunuch answered Philip and said, “Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself, or of someone else?”
35 And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
36 And as they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”
37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away; and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip found himself at Azotus; and as he passed through he kept preaching the gospel to all the cities, until he came to Caesarea.
 
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NatalieJan777

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First I want to say thank you brother so much for your indepth and sincere illustrations and words. I didn't have much issue in partially comprehending all you said (ie your seed has been planted). But the following I have major missunderstanding of, and would ask that you expound on #1 why you urge me to be careful.

Be careful, there are the sovereign moves of God where He does not require the submission of man in the revelation of understanding, Saul of Tarsus is one such example . . . so this is not the "only" way. It is ONE of the ways, and probably the most common.

I had made the following statement:

'It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'

#2. I do not understand why your reference to Paul, can you also please explain this?

May GOD BLESS!
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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First I want to say thank you brother so much for your indepth and sincere illustrations and words. I didn't have much issue in partially comprehending all you said (ie your seed has been planted). But the following I have major missunderstanding of, and would ask that you expound on #1 why you urge me to be careful.



I had made the following statement:

'It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'

#2. I do not understand why your reference to Paul, can you also please explain this?

May GOD BLESS!

Sure. It is the "only by God . . . AND our submission . . ." as if the only time that we understand is when He moves on us AND we are in submission to Him at that point.

The story of Saul being converted on the way to kill and persecute the church is a case in point of God moving upon a man WITH NO REGARD TO THAT MANS SUBMISSION TO HIM . . . and in fact at that moment that man was in STIRCT rebellion.

Just becareful because often times the statements that we make God comes along and does contrary. Like with Paul. Paul was not seeking God, as in seeking Christ . . . Paul was running headlong into the arms of Satan by persecuting the church . . . then God comes along in sovereignty and has His way with Paul by making him blind and speaking with him from heaven. Paul understood because God FORCED understanding.

Making more sense now?

:hug:
 
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NatalieJan777

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This is why I stated God's own leading as having to come first. And personally, I believe that too happened in the case of Paul and after it brought Paul submitting to and doing GOD's WILL. Apart from HIS WILL nothing can be accomplished. If we do not acknowledge HIM, HIS hands are literally tied because HE cannot/willnot force us to do anything other than face the truth in the end if we do not face it now.
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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This is why I stated God's own leading as having to come first. And personally, I believe that too happened in the case of Paul and after it brought Paul submitting to and doing GOD's WILL. Apart from HIS WILL nothing can be accomplished. If we do not acknowledge HIM, HIS hands are literally tied because HE cannot/willnot force us to do anything other than face the truth in the end if we do not face it now.

Hold on . . . here is the doctrinal issue . . .

I believe that too happened in the case of Paul and after it brought Paul submitting to and doing GOD's WILL.

That is not in the text, nor is it Paul's own statement:

Acts 9:1-5
Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2 and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
NASU

Gal 1:13, 14
13 For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; 14 and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
NASU

Paul was in DIRECT rebellion to the Lord. There was no "tying" of God's hands . . . Here we have the case of God acting unilaterally, with full sovereignty, to CHANGE the direction and the condition of Paul's heart WITH NO CONCERN FOR PAUL'S WILL. Paul's actions or desires were NOT anywhere in view here . . . God's hands were not "tied" by Paul's lack of obedience or acknowledgement of Christ.

If we do not acknowledge HIM, HIS hands are literally tied because HE cannot/willnot force us to do anything

Paul did not acknowledge ANYTHING . . . he was persecuting the church.

God FORCED the revelation of Himself UPON PAUL . . . Paul was foolish and THEN he submitted and obeyed . . . but make no mistake sister, God smacked Paul in his spiritual face, and there was NO requirement of Paul's obedience nor willingness. Paul's will was to persecute the church, God's will was to use Paul to reach the Gentiles . . . two separate issues, and it is GOD who BENDS Paul to accomplish His will.

As well, philosophically, God forces EVERYONE . . . you either choose Christ or you choose death . . .

other than face the truth in the end if we do not face it now

Well, that is forcing . . . and it is more than mere facing the facts . . . He forces people to choose, He does not give options. Freedom of will is a myth sister . . . freedom of choice is true. We are all playing by God's rules, we do not make and cannot change the rules . . . which we could if we had freedom of will. The ONLY being in existence who has true and complete freedom of will is God alone.

If your conditions that "God moves and our will must be submitted and then we understand, but both of these are required to understand" are true . . . then Paul must be submitted to "get" the smack in the face to understand that what he was doing is wrong. The text shows that not only was Paul NOT submitted, he was COMPLETELY CONTRARY to what God wanted! God wanted Paul to BUILD the church in reaching the Gentiles, Paul wanted to excel in Judaism and DESTROY the church because of his perception of the church's threat to Judaism. Paul was running the opposite way. God stepped in with NO regard to Paul's will and CHANGED IT.

If your posit is true, God cannot do this because He requires Paul's obedience and acknowledgement BEFORE Paul can understand what God is revealing (namely His will).

NOW after this, God does use mans will in conjunction with His own . . . but God's hands are NEVER tied . . .

:)
 
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NatalieJan777

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He is not going to force the sinner not to sin. Love will never force anything.

Acts 26:14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

Matthew Henry's Commentary

26:12-23 Paul was made a Christian by Divine power; by a revelation of Christ both to him and in him; when in the full career of his sin. He was made a minister by Divine authority: the same Jesus who appeared to him in that glorious light, ordered him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. A world that sits in darkness must be enlightened; those must be brought to know the things that belong to their everlasting peace, who are yet ignorant of them. A world that lies in wickedness must be sanctified and reformed; it is not enough for them to have their eyes opened, they must have their hearts renewed; not enough to be turned from darkness to light, but they must be turned from the power of Satan unto God. All who are turned from sin to God, are not only pardoned, but have a grant of a rich inheritance. The forgiveness of sins makes way for this. None can be happy who are not holy; and to be saints in heaven we must be first saints on earth. We are made holy, and saved by faith in Christ; by which we rely upon Christ as the Lord our Righteousness, and give up ourselves to him as the Lord our Ruler; by this we receive the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and eternal life. The cross of Christ was a stumbling-block to the Jews, and they were in a rage at Paul's preaching the fulfilling of the Old Testament predictions. Christ should be the first that should rise from the dead; the Head or principal One. Also, it was foretold by the prophets, that the Gentiles should be brought to the knowledge of God by the Messiah; and what in this could the Jews justly be displeased at? Thus the true convert can give a reason of his hope, and a good account of the change manifest in him. Yet for going about and calling on men thus to repent and to be converted, vast numbers have been blamed and persecuted.

His kicking against the goads was a kicking against GOD, this rebellion you speak of. It took GOD to come to him to show him that, and to turn him to do GOD's WILL.

I am not talking about what Paul did before GOD's coming to him, because we all do the same or similair to the same before HE comes to us. And it takes GOD's coming to us and renewing our hearts for us to turn. Unless GOD comes to us and we willingly turn from our evil, HE can do nothing for us, because it takes our humbleness and repentance to turn to HIM.

John 6:44-45 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."
 
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Mathetes the kerux

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He is not going to force the sinner not to sin. Love will never force anything.

Acts 26:14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, 'Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'

Matthew Henry's Commentary

26:12-23 Paul was made a Christian by Divine power; by a revelation of Christ both to him and in him; when in the full career of his sin. He was made a minister by Divine authority: the same Jesus who appeared to him in that glorious light, ordered him to preach the gospel to the Gentiles. A world that sits in darkness must be enlightened; those must be brought to know the things that belong to their everlasting peace, who are yet ignorant of them. A world that lies in wickedness must be sanctified and reformed; it is not enough for them to have their eyes opened, they must have their hearts renewed; not enough to be turned from darkness to light, but they must be turned from the power of Satan unto God. All who are turned from sin to God, are not only pardoned, but have a grant of a rich inheritance. The forgiveness of sins makes way for this. None can be happy who are not holy; and to be saints in heaven we must be first saints on earth. We are made holy, and saved by faith in Christ; by which we rely upon Christ as the Lord our Righteousness, and give up ourselves to him as the Lord our Ruler; by this we receive the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and eternal life. The cross of Christ was a stumbling-block to the Jews, and they were in a rage at Paul's preaching the fulfilling of the Old Testament predictions. Christ should be the first that should rise from the dead; the Head or principal One. Also, it was foretold by the prophets, that the Gentiles should be brought to the knowledge of God by the Messiah; and what in this could the Jews justly be displeased at? Thus the true convert can give a reason of his hope, and a good account of the change manifest in him. Yet for going about and calling on men thus to repent and to be converted, vast numbers have been blamed and persecuted.

His kicking against the goads was a kicking against GOD, this rebellion you speak of. It took GOD to come to him to show him that, and to turn him to do GOD's WILL.

I am not talking about what Paul did before GOD's coming to him, because we all do the same or similair to the same before HE comes to us. And it takes GOD's coming to us and renewing our hearts for us to turn. Unless GOD comes to us and we willingly turn from our evil, HE can do nothing for us, because it takes our humbleness and repentance to turn to HIM.

John 6:44-45 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me."


He is not going to force the sinner not to sin.

Agreed.

Love will never force anything.

Hmm . . . but u see the verse above? John 6:44-45? See the "draws?" If you do a word study and a usage history, it means to forcibly bring. The picture is of God arresting our hearts when our hearts dont even want Him. That is what happened to Paul. Paul was not looking for God, yet God forced the revelation upon him . . . yet Paul is thankful. As am I . . . I cannot phathom where I would be if God had not STOPPED my rebellion and awakened my heart to Him . . . cause I surely didnt want Him. Thank God He wanted me!

His kicking against the goads was a kicking against GOD, this rebellion you speak of. It took GOD to come to him to show him that, and to turn him to do GOD's WILL.

EXACTLY! Which is why the statement that "to understand, God must move and we must be submitted and if we are not, Gods hands are tied" is not true . . . and why you must be careful.

There are times when God chooses to allow our obedience and such to be part and parcel of His will and its execution . . . but NEVER make such a blanket statement, esp about Gods hands being tied, because IF God should so choose to act unilaterally in sovereign power, our submission and willingness really mean NOTHING. He can do WHATEVER HE PLEASES . . . INCLUDING taking a person who is NOT submitted to Him and turning his world inside out TO MAKE PAUL SUBMITTED.

Remember that

Phil 2:10-11
10 so that at the name of JesusEVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
NASU

some of these will be believers, and the vast majority will not. SO the confession is not a confession of willing submission, but of forced submission. Jesus returns as a lion, a conqueroring King, and the conquerored, tho they bow, ONLY DO SO BECAUSE THE SWORD IS BROUGHT TO THEM.

Our ooey gooey concepts of what we think "love" is do not compute with the Bible . . .


I am not talking about what Paul did before GOD's coming to him

Ah Ha! YES . . . this is what I was searching for. This is a qualifying statement . . . and this is what was needed to the original concept of "God and us submitting being needed to understand spiritual truth, and w/out our submission Gods hands are tied." As it stood, prior to your qualification, it was a blanket statement as a universal principle. It is not.

because we all do the same or similair to the same before HE comes to us.

Indeed, thank God for grace!:amen:

And it takes GOD's coming to us and renewing our hearts for us to turn

Amen.

Unless GOD comes to us and we willingly turn from our evil, HE can do nothing for us, because it takes our humbleness and repentance to turn to HIM.

True, yet this is predicated upon HIS FIRST ACTING UPON US, which DOES NOT REQUIRE OUR PARTICIPATION. And that is my point . . . He does not choose FOR us, He enables us to choose and He only regenerates those who will choose.

My point is that the principle of grasping spiritual truth, IN THIS FIRST PHASE, IS NOT DEPENDANT UPON US . . . our "hands" have nothing to do with it, Gods sovereign move here does not require ANYTHING from us, yet it is the awakening of the ability to discern spiritual truth (which was the original topic that led us down this rabbit trail ^_^). In this place, it does not take God AND us, because it IS ONLY GOD. Tho if what you mean is that it takes God THEN US (verses "and" where both actions are requsite), I would say yes, if God awakens us, and we do not choose, then it is for naught . . .

It is surely semantics, but in formulating doctrine semantics is HIGHLY important.
 
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NatalieJan777

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I will openly admit that I am no where near as brilliant as you are.

I do now understand why I must be carefull about the statement that God's hands are tied. Because I do know that all will be forced in the end to bow before and be judged by the WORD of GOD.

My original Statement:

'It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'

As per you must now be changed to say:

'It is only by GOD's own leading, than by us choosing to submit to that leading, only then can HE make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'

Is this about right? All of this back and forth over a word?

In my mind, by my stating 'and our submission to that leading' should imply that HE must first lead.

Okay now, hopefully we are back on topic?

What is sound doctrin?

Biblically, there are three modes of discernment

1. Doctrine
2. Corporate discernment within the church (usually from seasoned saints)
3. The internal "nudges" of the Spirit

This all started because we disagree as to what comes first:

I still say:

1. Spirit (Heavenly Father).
2. Doctrine (Our Heavenly Fathers WORD, whom is Christ Jesus in the flesh)
3. Unity in truth.

I am sorry that I still see it this way, but I do.

No one comes to the Word of GOD accept by the Spiritual leading from Our Heavenly Father.

I do appreciate your time here in explaination, even though (because you have been more blessed than I in the word knowledge department) it takes me a bit of re-reading to even comprehend where exactly you are coming from. I feel like a hillbilly, which compared to you I probably am lol.

May GOD bless you Brother!

Nat
 
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I will openly admit that I am no where near as brilliant as you are.

I do now understand why I must be carefull about the statement that God's hands are tied. Because I do know that all will be forced in the end to bow before and be judged by the WORD of GOD.

My original Statement:

'It is only by GOD's own leading and our submission to that leading that HE can make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'

As per you must now be changed to say:

'It is only by GOD's own leading, than by us choosing to submit to that leading, only then can HE make known to us what it is HE wishes for us to understand.'

Is this about right? All of this back and forth over a word?

In my mind, by my stating 'and our submission to that leading' should imply that HE must first lead.

Okay now, hopefully we are back on topic?

What is sound doctrin?

Biblically, there are three modes of discernment

1. Doctrine
2. Corporate discernment within the church (usually from seasoned saints)
3. The internal "nudges" of the Spirit

This all started because we disagree as to what comes first:

I still say:

1. Spirit (Heavenly Father).
2. Doctrine (Our Heavenly Fathers WORD, whom is Christ Jesus in the flesh)
3. Unity in truth.

I am sorry that I still see it this way, but I do.

No one comes to the Word of GOD accept by the Spiritual leading from Our Heavenly Father.

I do appreciate your time here in explaination, even though (because you have been more blessed than I in the word knowledge department) it takes me a bit of re-reading to even comprehend where exactly you are coming from. I feel like a hillbilly, which compared to you I probably am lol.

May GOD bless you Brother!

Nat

Well thank you for the compliments:hug:.

I am only what I am by the grace of God. I am just glad that what God has gifted me with is something that can bless others.

still say:

1. Spirit (Heavenly Father).
2. Doctrine (Our Heavenly Fathers WORD, whom is Christ Jesus in the flesh)
3. Unity in truth.

I am sorry that I still see it this way, but I do.

No reason to apologize. It is cool. I suppose because of where God has taken me He has been faithful to show me not to trust my perception on an issue over what He has stated clearly in the Scriptures. Coming from a Pentecostal background I have heard over and again "the SPirit says . . ." or " the Spirit told me . . ." or "God has lead me to . . ." (even one man said God led him to leave his wife because he couldnt have joy in his current marriage, so he needed to leave to have joy to glorify God!) when in reality, with the given doctrines in Scripture, God would never have led the person in such a way or told a person such a thing.

In Corinth you had people who believed that they were being spoken to and through by the Holy Spirit that Jesus was accursed (1 Cor 12:1-3)! So in an instance like that, if we were to make the first line of authority the inner leading of what some person thought was the Spirit of God, then we would have to accept what the person said as true and found new doctrine. But being that the FIRST place of discernment was the teaching of the Scriptures (sound doctrine), they could discern, that even tho this person was so sure it was God that they stood to prophesy such a thing to the whole congregation . . . the person was DEAD WRONG. The "spirit" was really not God at all (perhaps exhuberant flesh, or even demonic), and should the "leading of the Spirit" been given a prime place OVER the doctrine, then the flesh or the enemy gets the glory that should only be God's.

Now concerning areas where doctrine does not touch . . . like kinds of music . . . or when to start and altar call . . . or the specific story to share with someone when witnessing for Christ . . . HERE is where the move of the Spirit has FULL reign . . . because there is nothing that is more sure here.

But because our PERCEPTION can be flawed of what WE THINK is the SPirit of God, concerning sound doctrine, the Bible and what is infallible in its revelation is the first line.

Again tho, I suppose it is because of my experience that this truth rings so clear to me . . .

:):thumbsup:
 
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NatalieJan777

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I do understand where you are coming from, and it is why I said if someone truly walks in the Spirit, and therein is the key. It is my belief that we are drawn to the word (The Spirit makes us yearn to know HIM better), therefore until we are drawn to the Word by the Spirit, revelations cannot be made known to us no matter how much others share the word with us.

I personally have a relative who says that God wants him to be happy, so he left his wife. It is wrong what he has done, but no amount of me preaching what the word says will change his actions. The Spirit must first lead him personally to honor the Word of GOD. I do not participate nor condone anything that comes from the mindset of 'If it feels good do it!", especially not when it goes against HIS word. But having been there and done that, unknowingly in many cases, because I had yet not been drawn to the Word, I can't judge anyone based on it, I can only share. And I do believe that sins commited in ignorance are covered by the blood of Christ.

May GOD continue to bless you as you continue to seek HIM.

Nat
 
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NatalieJan777

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This is why Jesus (Word of God) says:

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The Word of God (Jesus) cannot acknowledge (know) an individual who does not yearn to know HIM better. If you do not know HIM (Word of GOD), you stand the chance to be rejected in the end.

If HE has given us the ability to read/listen to HIM, I do not think HE will hold blameless those who by choice do not seek to know HIM better. If HE has not blessed us with the knowledge to read/listen, HIS commands are still on our hearts should we choose to follow them, so I also believe that if an individual is illiterate/deaf, yet seeks to follow and have Faith in the Spirit as Abraham did, in these certain cases the Spirit is suffice. The Word only stands to reaffirm what the Spirit has already put into us by writing HIS Laws on our Hearts.
 
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Fireinfolding

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The apostles say let him that names the name of the Lord "depart from iniquity" (in sync with that picture) concerning "the Lord KNOWETH them that are HIS" whereas there he says, "I never KNEW you" what makes us one of His is if the Spirit of Christ dwelleth in us (otherwise we are "none of His"

Psalms 101:4 A froward heart shall depart from me: I will not know a wicked person.

Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In works (not in "words")

1Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2Titus 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Verse after Mat 7:23 (above) in accord with the foundation of "hearing and doing" His words

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock

Not hearing and doing them is concidered "deceiving ourselves"
 
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I do understand where you are coming from, and it is why I said if someone truly walks in the Spirit, and therein is the key. It is my belief that we are drawn to the word (The Spirit makes us yearn to know HIM better), therefore until we are drawn to the Word by the Spirit, revelations cannot be made known to us no matter how much others share the word with us.

I personally have a relative who says that God wants him to be happy, so he left his wife. It is wrong what he has done, but no amount of me preaching what the word says will change his actions. The Spirit must first lead him personally to honor the Word of GOD. I do not participate nor condone anything that comes from the mindset of 'If it feels good do it!", especially not when it goes against HIS word. But having been there and done that, unknowingly in many cases, because I had yet not been drawn to the Word, I can't judge anyone based on it, I can only share. And I do believe that sins commited in ignorance are covered by the blood of Christ.

May GOD continue to bless you as you continue to seek HIM.

Nat

It is wrong what he has done, but no amount of me preaching what the word says will change his actions. The Spirit must first lead him personally to honor the Word of GOD.

Ah yes. I do believe this with all my heart . . . it is only God who can impart revelation. But I think this is different than what I am referring to. I think that the one who is seeking to formulate sound doctrine is already being led in this way by the sheer fact that he/she is seeking to formulate sound doctrine. So this sovereign drawing of the SPirit I whole heartedly agree with, we cannot "gut" out revelation that sticks and changes our souls on our own.

What I am referring to tho is different than the steady universal drawing of the Spirit that He has upon all who are His (I lead My sheep out and they know My voice john 10). I am referring to the special little "inklings" that we think we discern. Goosebumps, voices in our spirit, unique and special little moments, that really may be the Spirit . . . but because of the nature of our propensity to error . . . are too subjective to just be given untested authority . . .

So perhaps I took the leading of the SPirit (as you are referring to) as a given, and I see two leadings.

1. Is the universal draw of the Spirit upon all Christians into deeper and deeper truth and revelation of the cross in the person and work of Jesus Christ
2. Is the special and unique leading of the Spirit in certain moments that is DIFFERENT from above in that it is more manifest and not nearly as undetectable.

It is number 2 that I am concerned about. Does this make better sense?

So perhaps I could say, in formulating sound doctrine:

1. The draw of the SPirit upon all Christians into Christlikeness
2. Sound Doctrine/Scripture
3. Discernment of the church
4. Special leadings of the Spirit (manifestations of gifts [tongues, prophecy, visions etc], voices to the soul, goosebumps, etc)

How does this work?

:thumbsup:^_^:hug:
 
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