Women Are Still the Most Discriminated Against

[Dorothea]

My question is to ask why is submission viewed as an evil
bad thing? That's OUR flaw as humans and wer'e prone to
rebellion. That's what we're seeing in this thread.

I believe it has to do with our pride. Pride comes before the fall as they say. This quote from a Greek Orthodox nun really is beautiful:

"Obedience is an expression of love and humility. It is an important weapon against egotism and selfishness which prevents one from loving God and our neighbor.”

 

[AngelusSax]

ask God that in Genesis 3 at the fall when He put it that way.
Let me quote it again:
16 To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”

A consequence of the Fall, showing how the relationship would be BROKEN. But Jesus came to forgive sins and repair relationships, both for intra-human and human-God. The least we can do is quit rejecting that and let it be done to us.

I believe it has to do with our pride. Pride comes before the fall as they say. This quote from a Greek Orthodox nun really is beautiful:

"Obedience is an expression of love and humility. It is an important weapon against egotism and selfishness which prevents one from loving God and our neighbor.”

So when husbands are exhoted to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, giving Himself up for her, so that the husband should be willing to lay down his very life, the woman is the one who must always submit?

Sorry, but any husband not willing to lay down his life daily, including in terms of having "authority" over someone, or in terms of who can and can't have a career, is not fit to lay down his life for his wife, and being not in obedience himself, then is not giving "an expression of love" which he is commanded to have.

 

[Everlasting33]

Having 2 heads of 1 leadership creates stalemates -
Even Christ is submissive to the Father who is "head".

I disagree that the man must make the final decision in every situation in marriage. There are many situations when the woman must make a decision and this should not be seen as "not submitting." If a woman desires to be a doctor and go through all the schooling, it should be her, not her husband, that makes this final decision.

Stalemates can be resolved by compromise and negotiating...high forms of communication.

My question is to ask why is submission viewed as an evil
bad thing? That's OUR flaw as humans and wer'e prone to
rebellion. That's what we're seeing in this thread.

As I become older, I have acknowledged the usefulness of submission not only in marriage but in all relationships. However, I find problem when it is suggested that only the woman submit.

 

[Nadiine]

I disagree that the man must make the final decision in every situation in marriage. There are many situations when the woman must make a decision and this should not be seen as "not submitting." If a woman desires to be a doctor and go through all the schooling, it should be her, not her husband, that makes this final decision.

Stalemates can be resolved by compromise and negotiating...high forms of communication.



As I become older, I have acknowledged the usefulness of submission not only in marriage but in all relationships. However, I find problem when it is suggested that only the woman submit.

That does not NEGATE what we know from the Bible in God's order
of authority.
God establishes order in all areas of life - even within the Godhead
that order exists.
So to somehow declare that ONLY THE HUMAN FEMALE has equal
authority is somehow laughable.

And not all stalemates get worked out by the way.

If you wanted to make your case, you'de have to admit that your
model is BETTER than God's own model of His own being.
If God has order of authority (even in a perfect unity of will), then
how do you justify claiming human beings have a BETTER system
of authority?
They don't usurp God's model - God doesn't even usurp His own model.
He abides by Headship as well.

Sorry but this is rebellion.

 

[Nadiine]

1 Corinthians 11:2-4

2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
3But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man,
and the man is the head of a woman,
and God is the head of Christ.

Are females above this model for authority?

The same Greek word for "head' is used in all 3:

ke-fa-la:
2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
c) of things: the corner stone

This is God's established order of responsibility and authority.
When it's carried out in proper love, it's pleasing to God.

Women's nature is to seize control of that authority -
and true to nature, that's what we have going on here
in these thread topics.

It's no great mystery why this is so hard fought by women.

 

[lux et lex]

That's right...father knows best.

I know I will never agree with this or to this. I think it's a denominational thing and a very small and insignificant part of Christianity. I feel like in this thread a very small sliver of the Bible is being used to make stay at home women feel better about themselves and put down women in the working world. And if it makes you feel better, wonderful, sad but wonderful. I will not let it have an effect on the way I feel about working women. Unless something truly outrageous comes about in this thread, I think I'll just lurk because I feel like a broken record right now. (and I feel like I'm listening to one too)

 

[Everlasting33]

That does not NEGATE what we know from the Bible in God's order
of authority.
God establishes order in all areas of life - even within the Godhead
that order exists.
So to somehow declare that ONLY THE HUMAN FEMALE has equal
authority is somehow laughable.

And not all stalemates get worked out by the way.

If you wanted to make your case, you'de have to admit that your
model is BETTER than God's own model of His own being.
If God has order of authority (even in a perfect unity of will), then
how do you justify claiming human beings have a BETTER system
of authority?
They don't usurp God's model - God doesn't even usurp His own model.
He abides by Headship as well.

Sorry but this is rebellion.

I believe that all stalemates can be worked out by the way I described. My fiancee and I had a stalemate in regards to apartment hunting. But, we wanted to make sure we both agreed on an apartment and it was not like he chose an apartment because he's the man. We both made the decision and I find it beneficial this way since I feel I have strengthened my own competency at decision making.

I do not see how I am rebelling. My fiancee submits to me and I submit to him. Some women may enjoy or prefer their husbands make all the decisions..this can potentially be harmful since it can implement dependency concerns.

So, in the example that I provided about the woman going back to school to be a doctor, do you believe the man still has the final decision?

 

[Archivist]

That does not NEGATE what we know from the Bible in God's order of authority. God establishes order in all areas of life - even within the Godhead that order exists. So to somehow declare that ONLY THE HUMAN FEMALE has equal authority is somehow laughable. And not all stalemates get worked out by the way. If you wanted to make your case, you'de have to admit that your model is BETTER than God's own model of His own being. If God has order of authority (even in a perfect unity of will), then how do you justify claiming human beings have a BETTER system
of authority? They don't usurp God's model - God doesn't even usurp His own model. He abides by Headship as well. Sorry but this is rebellion.

And as I have said to you numerous times, Nadine, you are, of course entitled to your INTERPRETATION of scripture. However, you continually speak of that INTERPRETATION as if it is the one and only possible INTERPRETATION.

My Bible includes the verses that you have continually quoted in this thread. HOWEVER, my Bible also tells me "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, MALE NOR FEMALE, FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS." [Galatians 3:28]

IF THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE IN CHRIST JESUS, THEN IN MY INTERPRETATION IT IS NOT REBELLION FOR A WOMAN TO CLAIM EQUALITY WITH A MAN. We know that Paul often wrote to address specific situations. My INTERPRETATION is that in light of Galayians 3:28, which clearly states that in Christ there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE, the verses you have continually quoted in this thread were written to address such a situation and not as a rule for all time.

That is my INTERPRETATION. Again, you are entitled to your INTERPRETATION. However, it is just that, YOUR INTERPRETATION, NOT THE ONE AND ONLY INTERPRETATION.

 

[ke1985]

^^ very good

 

[LJSGM]

In the 1950's, people were not more righteous then people are now.

That's like calling the pharisees more righteous then the sinners.

 

[LJSGM]

They don't usurp God's model - God doesn't even usurp His own model.
He abides by Headship as well.

How can God usurp himself if he is one God? I think your interpretation of kephale is way off.

 

[johnd]

How can God usurp himself if he is one God? I think your interpretation of kephale is way off.

Shall we delve into Trinitarian Theology?

 

[LJSGM]

Shall we delve into Trinitarian Theology?

Yah.... But the male/female marriage does not compare to a trinity anyways, so what's the point?

The closest thing to an example is Christ and the church.

 

[johnd]

God is not a person. God is a unity of three persons. To call God "God" is like saying to your parents or your siblings "Family." It applies to them of course, but it is not who and what they are as an individual. It is the unit / unity of the individuals.

It does address the nature of the unity. But personifying the unity itself "God" is where most who get tripped up by the triune nature of God stumbles.

 

[johnd]

Yah.... But the male/female marriage does not compare to a trinity anyways, so what's the point?

The closest thing to an example is Christ and the church.

Ok.

So does the Church (the Bride of Christ) overrule him / usurp his authority?

 

[LJSGM]

God is not a person. God is a unity of three persons. To call God "God" is like saying to your parents or your siblings "Family." It applies to them of course, but it is not who and what they are as an individual. It is the unit / unity of the individuals.

It does address the nature of the unity. But personifying the unity itself "God" is where most who get tripped up by the triune nature of God stumbles.

Sorry, but there is only one God.

He can not usurp himself.

We were made in his image, that of a trinity. A body, soul and spirit. Each one, in it's own way has a "mind of it's own," But the body is not the source, it is the soul/spirit.

A marriage however is two seperate people uniting as one, whereas God always has been one from the beginning.

 

[LJSGM]

Ok.

So does the Church (the Bride of Christ) overrule him / usurp his authority?

We have been given authority and he is the source of our spiritual life.

Which one was he speaking of when he says kephale for he could have said arche to make sure he meant authority?

But instead Pauls says:

1 Corinthians 11:12
For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

 

[johnd]

Sorry, but there is only one God.

He can not usurp himself.

There is indeed only one God. There are three "hes" who are the one what.

We were made in his image, that of a trinity.

We were made in the image of the incarnate Christ. Remember we are dealing with an omniscient mind (or three omniscient minds) who can see the incarnate Christ (Matthew / Mark / Luke / John) from the beginning (Genesis).

Colossians 2:9
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

Colossians 1:13-18
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the {{visible / physical}} image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

We obviously are not like him in his deity (Isaiah 43, 44, 45). But we are like him in his body... and not strictly / identically so because females are also created in the image of him...

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

A body, soul and spirit. Each one, in it's own way has a "mind of it's own," But the body is not the source, it is the soul/spirit.

Um, actually, the body and the spirit are conflicting entities of the same person... we're all bipolar in that sense as our bodies war against the spirit etc... LOL but the soul (if you'll do a word search and study the implcations in the Bible [for example the soul having traits / attributes of both body and spirit] is a buffer between the body and spirit which ceases to exist when the spirit leaves the body.

And none of the persons of the Godhead ever ceases to exist.
​

[/quote]A marriage however is two seperate people uniting as one, whereas God always has been one from the beginning.[/quote]

Don't discount the individuality of the three in the Godhead.

Jesus is Creator (John 1:1-3. Colossians 1:16-17, Isaiah 44:24).
The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible (2 Peter 1:20-21, John 16:13).
The Father is the ultimate Authority and Creator of only the incarnate body of Jesus (John 14:28, Hebrew 10:5-7, John 1:14.

Each is unique and does unique things the other two aren't and do not do.

Also the Son had a will that had to be submitted to the will of the Father.

Not MY will but THY will be done... (Matthew 26:39) which is what I gather Nadiine was driving at.

 

[johnd]

We have been given authority and he is the source of our spiritual life.

Which one was he speaking of when he says kephale for he could have said arche to make sure he meant authority?

But instead Pauls says:

1 Corinthians 11:12
For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God.

Genesis 3:15-16
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Are you saying this was just for Adam?

 

[LJSGM]

Genesis 3:15-16
15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.”
16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

Are you saying this was just for Adam?

He sure didn't rule over her before the fall. It was a curse, which is a "bad thing" that will happen. Not a command. It does not say "her desire will be to control him" It says her desire will be for her husband.

the word desire translates as such:
1) desire, longing, craving
a) of man for woman
b) of woman for man

Mostly likely means that he will rule over/control her, and she will let him.

It is a broken relationship.

Broken relationships are not the ideal somehow no matter which way you twist it.