Women Are Still the Most Discriminated Against

[LJSGM]

There is indeed only one God. There are three "hes" who are the one what.

there aren't three "me's" that make one what, unless you are refering to my body being one me, soul one me, and spirit one me that make one what.

We were made in the image of the incarnate Christ.

could you give the verse, maybe I missed it, but genesis does say that we were made in the image of God (who is three "persons"), not specifically and only "incarnate christ."

Remember we are dealing with an omniscient mind (or three omniscient minds) who can see the incarnate Christ (Matthew / Mark / Luke / John) from the beginning (Genesis).

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

The "three" did not "see" christ. Christ was God. Logos is God's "manifestation" (for lack of a better term). Christ is God

Colossians 2:9
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

Christ is fully God.

Colossians 1:13-18
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the {{visible / physical}} image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

He is the "manifestation" of God or Logos/word of God.

Genesis 1:26
26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

We obviously are not like him in his deity (Isaiah 43, 44, 45). But we are like him in his body... and not strictly / identically so because females are also created in the image of him...

No, not physcially, but like him in trinity.

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Um, actually, the body and the spirit are conflicting entities of the same person... we're all bipolar in that sense as our bodies war against the spirit etc...

Paul doesn't seem to think that we are "bipolar"

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.1 Thessalonians 5:23

LOL but the soul (if you'll do a word search and study the implcations in the Bible [for example the soul having traits / attributes of both body and spirit] is a buffer between the body and spirit which ceases to exist when the spirit leaves the body.

I admit that the soul and spirit are mysteries, but the soul does not cease to exist when it leaves the body, otherwise God wouldn't need to destroy it in hell.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

If I were to guess, I would say that the soul is the most important part of a man. Don't ask what I mean by "important" though.

And none of the persons of the Godhead ever ceases to exist.

and never had a beginning....

Don't discount the individuality of the three in the Godhead.

God does use the marriage of a man and woman as an example to us to give us greater understanding of christ and the church, but that is as far as it goes. They are not the same thing.

Jesus is Creator (John 1:1-3. Colossians 1:16-17, Isaiah 44:24).
The Holy Spirit is the author of the Bible (2 Peter 1:20-21, John 16:13).
The Father is the ultimate Authority and Creator of only the incarnate body of Jesus (John 14:28, Hebrew 10:5-7, John 1:14.

Each is unique and does unique things the other two aren't and do not do.

I would go as far as to say that they are different things entirely. It's like God is three dimensional or something.

Also the Son had a will that had to be submitted to the will of the Father.

Just as our bodies submit to the will of our soul/spirit.

But what does that have to do with the Man/woman relationship?

 

[LJSGM]

My point really being... Even though it says that we were made in God's image, obviously it does not mean in every way. especially when it comes to authority/supremacy.

In the same way, Christ and the church is not an example in everyway of that of the man/woman relationship (ie in an example of authority).

 

[Nadiine]

amazing.

I'll just quote scripture again

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ,
and the head of the woman is man,
and the head of Christ is God.

Please note again that "head" in Greek is the same all 3 times.

John 14:28
" You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you
' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father,
for the Father is greater than I.

Greater in this verse is speaking of positional order, not in essence
or nature of being. The same principle is carried in headship of
having an order of authority, not being better than.
Again it's about order.

If it's so horrible to have order, then Jesus should have felt
angry that He had to be submissive and the father was head.

This is also why Satan fell - he didn't want to be under God,
but equal (and over)....

 

[LJSGM]

This is also why Satan fell - he didn't want to be under God,
but equal (and over)....

My husband is not God.

 

[johnd]

He sure didn't rule over her before the fall. It was a curse, which is a "bad thing" that will happen. Not a command. It does not say "her desire will be to control him" It says her desire will be for her husband.

the word desire translates as such:
1) desire, longing, craving
a) of man for woman
b) of woman for man

Mostly likely means that he will rule over/control her, and she will let him.

It is a broken relationship.

Broken relationships are not the ideal somehow no matter which way you twist it.

Why is it a broken relationship for a man to rule over a woman, but ok for a woman to usurp the authority of a man? Is that not also in your view a broken relationship?

 

[Nadiine]

My husband is not God.

Ok, who said he was? The statement went to order of
authority - positional authority.

I'm saying the usurping of God's ordained order is wrong
to do and I used scripture to show the order.

Showing that Jesus is in a positional order in relation to
the Father should show us that being submissive to a
husband who is over us positionally isn't evil, negative,
sexist or bad.
To see it that way is our own flesh uprising as if it is.
Society brainwashes us that it is...

 

[LJSGM]

Why is it a broken relationship for a man to rule over a woman, but ok for a woman to usurp the authority of a man? Is that not also in your view a broken relationship?

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

In the context of a wife learning, she should not teach or "authenteō" the husband
Which means from the strong's:
1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

We know that Paul is speaking of the wife/husband because from another verse "she should ask her husband at home" indicates that it was the husband teaching the wife what she didn't know. It also commands her to be in "full submission" and she can not be that to any other man but her husband.

We also know that Paul believed that one is decieved through a lack of knowledge and that is why he is having those women that need to learn to be updated through their husbands so that they "be not decieved" like Eve, "for Adam was formed first" indicating that Eve was created after the command to not eat was given, and her little addition to the command shows that she lacked proper knowledge of the truth.

"and she will be redeemed/restored through the childbirth/childbearing" indicates to me that Paul is trying to do that very thing by teaching women once again where before they were prohibited.

 

[LJSGM]

Ok, who said he was? The statement went to order of
authority - positional authority.

I'm saying the usurping of God's ordained order is wrong
to do and I used scripture to show the order.

Showing that Jesus is in a positional order in relation to
the Father should show us that being submissive to a
husband who is over us positionally isn't evil, negative,
sexist or bad.
To see it that way is our own flesh uprising as if it is.
Society brainwashes us that it is...

Paul was not speaking of rulership/control or authority when speaking of kephale.

It's interesting that you bring up "brainwashing" cause I was thinking the same thing of what the church does to many.

 

[johnd]

there aren't three "me's" that make one what, unless you are refering to my body being one me, soul one me, and spirit one me that make one what.

You proceed from the false assumption that being made in God's image is a human trinity. I do not.

The Bible often shows the plurality of persons within the Godhead using over 2700 times in the Old Testament the plural "elohiym" to refer to God. One elohiym (Deuteronomy 6:4) means one unity of plurality.

John 4:24
24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

Colossians 1:15 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Colossians 2:9
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

If you'll check, most of us have a body.

We are indeed spirit beings in part. But as far as imagery goes... invisible not so imagey...

So, we are made in the image of Christ who is God incarnate, or put simply made in the image of God.

John 1

The Word Became Flesh

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

The "three" did not "see" christ. Christ was God. Logos is God's "manifestation" (for lack of a better term). Christ is God



Christ is fully God.



He is the "manifestation" of God or Logos/word of God.



No, not physcially, but like him in trinity.

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

This is too piece meal for me to make heads or tails of it.

Allow me to point out what John 1 actually says.

God the Word (calls the Word God) says the Word was God... this God (the Word) was WITH God...

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:2
2 He (not IT) was with God in the beginning.

John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

King James and ASV etc say the only begotten of the Father (referring to the incarnation)... that means no one else was from the Father (begotten or created). The Father did not create. He made the body of the incarnation for the preexisting Word (which John 1:1 clearly states is God).

Observe this conversation between God the Word and God the Father:

Hebrews 10:5-7
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure:
7 Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God. <--- not to worry about the Son calling the Father his God here and in John 20:17... the Father calls the Son God in Hebrews 1:8)

God is not a monolith where a piece of the one person broke off into the incarnation... note the distinction of persons "I, You, US" in verses like the one we discussed previously:

Genesis 1:26
26 And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Father makes the incarnate body (the image of the invisible God) the Word makes man in the image of that image he will incarnate to pay for the sins of man.... let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness.

Paul doesn't seem to think that we are "bipolar"

Sure he does. Read Romans chapter 7... wretched man that I am, who will rescue ME from this BODY of death? And it is no longer I who sins but sin living in me (my body).

Bi-puh-olar...!

[quoteMay your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.1 Thessalonians 5:23[/quote]

I never said there wasn't a state when we are all three. The graphic I showed even demonstrated that it is a fact, when in life we have all three... but the soul is a buffer an intermix (which is why attributes of both body and spirit are found in it's mention throughout scripture).

There are only two natures. Spiritual and physical. There is not a third soul nature. If so, please show me that it is other than physical or spirit.

I admit that the soul and spirit are mysteries, but the soul does not cease to exist when it leaves the body, otherwise God wouldn't need to destroy it in hell.

Ever wonder how death could be described three ways?

The disintegration of the body (from dust ye came to dust ye shall return) and it is what is called sleep as the body ceases to function in death. (1 Corinthians 15:51)

There is a part of us that ceases to exist in death. The dead know nothing. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Where the flower fades the grass is no more (Isaiah 40:6-8)

Psalm 103:15-16
15 As for man, his days are as grass; As a flower of the field, so he flourisheth.
16 For the wind passeth over it, and it is gone; And the place thereof shall know it no more.

And there is a part of us that is aware either in the grave (sheol Luke 16:19-31, or hell as you call it... not the lake of fire which comes after the second resurrection and judgment) or immediately present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8).

The spirit is what leaves the body. The body shuts down and disintegraes. The soul vanishes ceases to exist.

Matthew 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

You made my case that the soul can be destroyed. The spirit cannot be.

Mark 9:44-48
44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot cause thee to stumble, cut it off: it is good for thee to enter into life halt, rather than having thy two feet to be cast into hell.
46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye cause thee to stumble, cast it out: it is good for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell;
48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Perfect. You made my case. Thank you.

 

[johnd]

And then post this?

11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

In the context of a wife learning, she should not teach or "authente&#333;" the husband
Which means from the strong's:
1) one who with his own hands kills another or himself
2) one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3) an absolute master
4) to govern, exercise dominion over one

We know that Paul is speaking of the wife/husband because from another verse "she should ask her husband at home" indicates that it was the husband teaching the wife what she didn't know. It also commands her to be in "full submission" and she can not be that to any other man but her husband.

We also know that Paul believed that one is decieved through a lack of knowledge and that is why he is having those women that need to learn to be updated through their husbands so that they "be not decieved" like Eve, "for Adam was formed first" indicating that Eve was created after the command to not eat was given, and her little addition to the command shows that she lacked proper knowledge of the truth.

"and she will be redeemed/restored through the childbirth/childbearing" indicates to me that Paul is trying to do that very thing by teaching women once again where before they were prohibited.

 

[johnd]

Paul also alluded to the progenitors of the human race to universalize the points he was making.

 

[Nadiine]

Paul was not speaking of rulership/control or authority when speaking of kephale.

It's interesting that you bring up "brainwashing" cause I was thinking the same thing of what the church does to many.

GENESIS 3 SPEAKS DIRECTLY OF RULERSHIP - and that curse and God's
divine order put in place continue thru time.

Just like women's pain in childbirth has continued, and thistles/
weeds growing & toiling for food & income. The ground was cursed
and last I checked, snakes slither around on their bellies in the dust.

Seedtime and harvest continue, reaping and sowing continue as
principles, male and female marital covenant continue since
Genesis 1.
OT principles carry thru as principles thru the NT, till Jesus
reestablishes His reign.

Rulership and headship continue on. Just as it continues on in
God Himself.

We can't just erase Genesis 3 to suit our preferences, maybe you
think we can, but I sure won't.

 

[Tissue]

GENESIS 3 SPEAKS DIRECTLY OF RULERSHIP - and that curse and God's
divine order put in place continue thru time.

Just like women's pain in childbirth has continued, and thistles/
weeds growing & toiling for food & income. The ground was cursed
and last I checked, snakes slither around on their bellies in the dust.

We've been through this Nadiine, and you've never sufficiently answered it (though I have no doubt that you think you have).

We have developed anesthetics for pain in childbirth. Why is it so hard to believe that we have also developed, as a society, to the point where solely male rulership is no longer necessary?

 

[johnd]

Uh, hello? Is this thing on?

Testing 1,2,3,4...

Check check....

I Timothy 2:9-15 is UNIVERSALLY applied because it refers to the progenitors of the human race the same way Jesus did in Matthew 19 about the UNIVERSALITY of marriage.

So, Tissue, are you going to state that you believe marriage is therefore also subject to culture, medical advance, improved hygiene, whatnot?

 

[johnd]

I gay marriage now ok?

 

[Tissue]

So, Tissue, are you going to state that you believe marriage is therefore also subject to culture, medical advance, improved hygiene, whatnot?

Absolutely. Marriage is entirely tied to culture. A very simple venture into the history of marriage (that is, one that does not rely solely upon the Bible and its marital images, but actually indulges in historical fact) makes this quite clear.

 

[Nadiine]

We've been through this Nadiine, and you've never sufficiently answered it (though I have no doubt that you think you have).

We have developed anesthetics for pain in childbirth. Why is it so hard to believe that we have also developed, as a society, to the point where solely male rulership is no longer necessary?

Yes, we went thru it before and I proved your error.
(is it selective forgetfullness?)

WHY DO YOU NEED PAIN MEDS for childbirth at all?
BECUZ THE PAIN IS THERE as a curse by God.
What happens to mom if she refuses to take pain meds?

The fact that you need weed killer and to continually pick weeds
you never planted, prove the curse of thorns & thistles exists in
the first place.
How do you even rationalize your argument?

If you claimed to me that you never needed pain meds at
childbirth, or weed killer or weed picking, then you'de have
a solid argument; all you do is say "we invented things to
make it less of a pain or struggle".

IT'S STILL PAIN AND TOIL -
*tapping john's microphone*

 

[LJSGM]

And then post this?

Submit does not mean "to obey"

 

[Tissue]

Yes, we went thru it before and I proved your error.
(is it selective forgetfullness?)

Saw this coming.

WHY DO YOU NEED PAIN MEDS for childbirth at all?
BECUZ THE PAIN IS THERE as a curse by God.
What happens to mom if she refuses to take pain meds?

Pain meds provide an alleviation to the curse of childbirth pain, and if they are applied, then the curse is ineffectual.

Society provides an alleviation to the curse of male rulership, and if it is applied, then the curse is ineffectual.

If mum decides not to use pain meds, then she is subject to the curse.

If women decide not to partake of society's advance, then they are subject to the curse.

 

[LJSGM]

You made my case that the soul can be destroyed. The spirit cannot be.

Could you describe for me what the spirit is? What it does and where it goes?