Women Are Still the Most Discriminated Against

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Fade to Gray

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That is not an actual counterpoint, you know. It is a response declaring the ability to ignore the facts.
But you're assuming that you have a monopoly on "facts." For a discussion such as this to go anywhere, it is imperative that both sides examine evidence with an open mind, realizing that he or she may actually be mistaken in light of evidence.

You, Nadiine, and others have consistently used verses from scripture to back up your case--and this is fine. I'm not knocking you for that. However, you must also realize that there may be another interpretation to these verses, another understanding. You do not have to agree with that other interpretation, but you should at least acknowledge that it's there, that there may in fact be equally valid reasons for believing this second interpretation.

Also, I've noted several contradicting arguments when it comes to whether or not a woman is capable of leadership within the family or church. Using Nadiine as an example (I'm not trying to single you out--I just found your posts more readily), she has said:
While we are Equal AS HUMAN BEINGS, we are NOT equal
in our differences & capabilities.
And...
No wonder God set up men to rule. (in response to an argument stated by a female poster that Nadiine didn't agree with)
Also...

Becuz being in Christ doesn't mean that all Christians are equally gifted or called in service like the other is.
These very much imply (in my opinion) that women are not as capable as men, haven't been gifted with the same talents. Okay. Fine. I don't agree, but you're welcome to your opinion. However, in other posts you say:
It has nothing to do with not being "FIT". It has to do once again with order of authority.
And...
I don't care what people want to claim, the issue isn't about qualification, it's about what God ordains.
These both seem to imply to me that though you see women as fully capable of leadership, teaching, etc., those capabilities are overwritten by what you see as God's design.

I think both arguments are fundamentally flawed (and, of course, you're welcome to disagree with that), but they're made even weaker when used in tangent. You can't say that women and men are unequal in their gifts and capabilities then in turn say that your argument is not about whether or not a woman is capable.

Personally, I would agree with you if women were in fact fundamentally different from men (besides biologically). However, modern psychology seems to have disproven that, I think, so needless to say, I don't agree. BUT I am open to evidence proving differently, though, if you have any, as I believe that would be your strongest argument if it's true.

However, let me post a study that backs up how I feel about gender differences. It was done back in 2005, I believe.

The studies looked at cognitive abilities, such as the ability to do mathematics, verbal and nonverbal communication, aggression, leadership, self-esteem, moral reasoning and motor behaviour, such as throwing distance.
They ended up finding that while there are obviously some differences, for the most part "they were...so small as to be statistically irrelevant."


Also:
The American study found significant differences in only 22% of traits. These included sexual behaviour, where men were less willing to show commitment, and in aggression — men were more prone to anger. Men were also, the psychologists found, better at skills involving co-ordination such as throwing.

And:
Hyde analysed the studies by recalculating the data from them so they were comparable. In 30% of the traits analysed, she found almost no difference that was statistically significant between men and women, while there were only small differences in another 48%. “This means 78% of potential gender differences are small or close to zero,” she said.

And:
Hyde also found evidence that differences between men and women is linked to society's expectation of how they should behave.
For example, one study analysed the behaviour of men and women playing a video game, where dropping bombs was a measure of aggressive behaviour.

Half the players were identified, the other half were anonymous.

In the group that was identified, men dropped significantly more bombs than women, but this difference did not exist in the anonymous group.

"In short, the significant gender difference in aggression disappeared when gender norms were removed," says Hyde.

In another test, women smiled more than men when observed but this was not the case when they thought they were not being observed.

Hyde says these findings provide strong evidence against the idea that psychological differences between men and women are "large and stable".
 
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johnd

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Try to understand where I'm coming from. That very approach (that it's entirely clear what the text is saying), I know to be wrong in every single instance. I know, due to my education in philosophy and linguistics, that it is impossible to get behind words and reach their intended meaning with perfect certainty. And individual must always interpret; one always reads through the lens of their experience. While it is possible to grind this lens down quite thin, it is entirely impossible to remove it.

Now, you certainly don't think that this is true, but I know it to be true. This is where I'm coming from. That's why we disagree. You think the text is one way, and I think it is another, and it seems thoroughly unlikely that I will persuade you to believe my position, and it seems thoroughly unlikely that you will persuade me to believe your position. We are truly at an impasse.

Nevertheless, we can converse. If we see this less as a military exploit and more as a conversation, we might make progress. But it will take an open mind on both sides, and a proper understanding of the discussion.

Then how is it you have come to any conclusions?
 
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Tissue

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Then how is it you have come to any conclusions?

Because I come to conclusions based on interpretations. My stance does cause one to be humble about one's conclusions, but it doesn't keep them from knowledge, or any conclusions at all.
 
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Tissue

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I note you are Wesleyan... if words have no meaning, or do not convey ideals the way we believe them to... how can you be sure about Wesley?

Words do have meanings, and they do convey ideas. Words can be misread, however. Or they might not be written as accurately as the author may have intended. Or etc. etc. etc.
 
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Just like someone can interpret that Christ's death wasn't literal, or His ascention or first coming...

I never said that Christ's death wasn't literal, or His ascention or first coming. Scripture makes all that very clear.

Just pawning this off on "interpretation" only removes all foundation
for truth given in this religion by scripture.

In other words, your INTERPRETATION is the ONLY CORRECT INTERPRETATION.

"I interpret that I Universalism is true, therefore, I don't have to
repent & believe"... hey, we all interpret our own way.

I never said that Universalism is true, or that I don't have to repent & believe. However, the fact is that we all INTERPRET scripture. The difference between your position and my position is that you seem to think that your INTERPRETATION is the ONLY CORRECT INTERPRETATION.

"I interpret that I can fornicate since the NT term is loose, so
I'll shack up & sleep w/ whoever I want in God's name" hey, we all
interpret our own way.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I NEVER said any such thing.

If that's your take on scripture, then we have nothing to discuss
whatsoever AND you shouldn't bother witnessing Christ either
becuz "that's just your interpretation" of your religion.

Said like someone who thinks that her INTERPRETATION of Scripture is the ONLY CORRECT INTERPRETATION.

In my earlier post in this thread (#1168) I wrote the following:

And as I have said to you numerous times, Nadine, you are, of course entitled to your INTERPRETATION of scripture. However, you continually speak of that INTERPRETATION as if it is the one and only possible INTERPRETATION.

My Bible includes the verses that you have continually quoted in this thread. HOWEVER, my Bible also tells me "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, MALE NOR FEMALE, FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS." [Galatians 3:28]

IF THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE IN CHRIST JESUS, THEN IN MY INTERPRETATION IT IS NOT REBELLION FOR A WOMAN TO CLAIM EQUALITY WITH A MAN. We know that Paul often wrote to address specific situations. My INTERPRETATION is that in light of Galayians 3:28, which clearly states that in Christ there is NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE, the verses you have continually quoted in this thread were written to address such a situation and not as a rule for all time.

That is my INTERPRETATION. Again, you are entitled to your INTERPRETATION. However, it is just that, YOUR INTERPRETATION, NOT THE ONE AND ONLY INTERPRETATION

My INTERPRETATION of the role of women is based on Scripture. There is a verse that clearly supports my INTERPRETATION, unlike the examples that YOU gave (claiming that Christ's death or ressurection wasn't literal, etc.).
 
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A consequence of the Fall, showing how the relationship would be BROKEN. But Jesus came to forgive sins and repair relationships, both for intra-human and human-God. The least we can do is quit rejecting that and let it be done to us.


So when husbands are exhoted to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, giving Himself up for her, so that the husband should be willing to lay down his very life, the woman is the one who must always submit?

Sorry, but any husband not willing to lay down his life daily, including in terms of having "authority" over someone, or in terms of who can and can't have a career, is not fit to lay down his life for his wife, and being not in obedience himself, then is not giving "an expression of love" which he is commanded to have.
I personally think there is too much obsession over the word "submit." In a marriage, BOTH man and woman submit to each other. Woman and Man are equal in God's eyes. They are both human beings. But also, speaking of authority rolls, I believe that the man is the head of the household in which he is responsible for caring and being a good role model to his children, showing them how important the roll of father and husband as. As well, the wife and mother is to be a good role model for her children, showing how important a responsibility it is to be a mother and wife as well. And here's an interesting article on the roles of husband and wife:

God Blesses Through Obedience

Just as God's grace flowed to the Hebrew people through the hierarchy of the Old Testament Church's high priests, prophets, patriarchs, etc., in the same way this grace comes to us in the New Testament Church through bishops (who are the "fountain of the sacraments") and priests. And likened to them are husbands, as heads of their families. The husband who stands before God and intercedes for his wife and children, as the parish priest intercedes for his flock, truly receives God's blessing upon his family and all "the work of his hands."

Furthermore, we can say that the husband who functions as the Orthodox spiritual leader in his family, praying for and instructing his wife and children, as well as showing them (by his example) the way--such a man is already satisfying his wife's deepest needs. Such a man is easily and willingly obeyed by his wife, just as Eve would have obeyed Adam had he acted as her loving head and leader, instead of her follower into sin.

Thus, the good order of the Church becomes also the good order of the family. And just as the monastery is a microcosm of the Church, so too is that family where God is rightly worshipped, and where His "chain of command" is upheld and respected.

Inferiority and Inequality

Does this mean that husbands are "superior" to their wives? Our society would see it as such, for the world today promotes the idea of two heads in a family, both the husband and the wife (in spite of the fact that from a worldly standpoint no organization or institution can withstand two chiefs at the same time!). No, there is but one head, again following the divine pattern given by Christ to the Church, where we find but one ruling bishop in a diocese and one rector in each parish. And just as bishops and priests must obey the Lord, wives must obey their husbands:
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church. (Eph. 5:22-23)

We know that in Christ "there is neither male nor female." Obviously, then, the husband is not superior to his wife. But just as the President of the United States has no innate worthiness not equally shared with all citizens, but is respected and obeyed only because of his office and calling so too a husband and wife are completely equal one to another in God' s eyes (for which reason St. Paul even commands: "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ"), but a husband is obeyed and respected because of his office ane calling, which were bestowed upon him mystically in the Sacrament of Marriage.

If, then, they are both equal in God's eyes, why did God choose the man to be head of the wife, instead of the other way round? Because it was Eve that initiated the first sin. Thus, all her descendants must be in obedience to their husbands, giving them the initiative in all things; similarly all the sons of Adam are required to assume their original place as leaders in the marriage relationship, the place which Adam only too willingly abrogated to Eve, thus joining in her sin.

In St, Paul's instructions to husbands and wives there is a great mystery, and a seeming contradiction. A husband is appointed head of his wife, but he is also to be her servant. How can this be? "Husbands," says the Apostle, "love your wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify her..." In other words, a husband's authority is commensurate with his willingness to empty himself like a sacrificial lamb, in this way actually "sanctifying" his wife. It is a wonderful and worthy calling for a man, but one which too few husbands actually strive to attain.

The Wife's Role

What happens if a husband doesn't take his responsibilities seriously, or makes mistakes as head of the wife? Must he still be obeyed? Yes, in all things not sinful, he must be obeyed. Of course, a wife's first obedience is always to God, but in all other things she must submit, just as the Church constantly--although sometimes with groaning--submits to the will of Christ. It is not easy, but if wives trust that God will not allow their husbands to mislead or mistreat them, or in any way endanger their salvation, there is already a firm spiritual foundation to the relationship. (Similarly we read of instances where a monk saved his soul by being in obedience to a bad, incompetent, or foolish abbot, so long as he sincerely obeyed him in all things not sinful.) If a wife is suffering because of her husband's unworthy leadership, and she accepts this as a cross sent by a loving God, then she begins to walk the soul-saving path of martyrdom , as Scripture says: "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first."
To be second in a marriage (in other words, to be the wife) is a positive good, not an evil, for God does not hold the wife is free of the burden of responsibility-and it is a terrible burden—in a way that her husband can never be. Fr. Konstantine compared this to the parish priest, who carried the heavy burden of his spiritual children on his shoulders all through his life, never escaping it for one moment, and being accountable for the entire burden, whereas his deacon, or his reader, is relatively free of these responsibilities and therefore in a more enviable position. Wives, he said, often make the mistake--especially in today's society-of taking that responsibility away from their husbands (as Eve tried to do with to Adam), and this is what creates the famous "power struggle" that is so unedifying and unsatisfying in conternporary marriages.

All this, of course, makes sense only if both husband and wife are looking seriously at the purpose of life and marriage. If we understand that our first love must be not our spouse, but God and His Church, then everything falls into its proper place, all is in good order, and life is fruitful and meaningful. In such a context no wife will be afraid of being in obedience to her husband, just as the Church is in perfect obedience to Christ. To live under obedience is a safeguard against temptation and therefore a truly blessed role.

People in the world, filled with pride, seek authority and position; they seek to rule over others, believing that this brings happiness. But Christ has taught us that happiness comes only through self-sacrifice (the husband) and obedience (the wife). Obedience cannot be forced; it must come from the heart, voluntarily--this is true love. We are only pilgrims, preparing for the next world; therefore, how can we fail to rule wisely, lovingly, and givingly, if we are husbands; And, if we are wives, how can we fail to be meek and humbly obedient supports to our husbands? In both of these consists true happiness, for in both is to be found the essence of man and woman, the undoing of the sin of Adam and Eve, and the path--through this world--to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Fr. Alexey Young

Authority and Obedience in Marriage
 
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akeng

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The thing that people seem to sweep under the rug is when either spouse is doing things to compromise the salvation of the other the relationship should end. God comes before your spouse, if your spouse is assiting in your stumbling towards sin then its time to divorce. In the aspect of marriage neither partner is lesser than the other.

In professions such as the military there are certian rolls that ought not be filled by females such as direct combat postions, any position where your finger is on a trigger or you are in a position to be shot at. I also think there are positions in buisness where a womans emotions can be her detriment, in buisness people dont nessicarily care about your feelings, there are alot of dynamics in buisness and most of them can not be viewed through an emotional lense.

I personally think there is too much obsession over the word "submit." In a marriage, BOTH man and woman submit to each other. Woman and Man are equal in God's eyes. They are both human beings. But also, speaking of authority rolls, I believe that the man is the head of the household in which he is responsible for caring and being a good role model to his children, showing them how important the roll of father and husband as. As well, the wife and mother is to be a good role model for her children, showing how important a responsibility it is to be a mother and wife as well. And here's an interesting article on the roles of husband and wife:

God Blesses Through Obedience

Just as God's grace flowed to the Hebrew people through the hierarchy of the Old Testament Church's high priests, prophets, patriarchs, etc., in the same way this grace comes to us in the New Testament Church through bishops (who are the "fountain of the sacraments") and priests. And likened to them are husbands, as heads of their families. The husband who stands before God and intercedes for his wife and children, as the parish priest intercedes for his flock, truly receives God's blessing upon his family and all "the work of his hands."

Furthermore, we can say that the husband who functions as the Orthodox spiritual leader in his family, praying for and instructing his wife and children, as well as showing them (by his example) the way--such a man is already satisfying his wife's deepest needs. Such a man is easily and willingly obeyed by his wife, just as Eve would have obeyed Adam had he acted as her loving head and leader, instead of her follower into sin.

Thus, the good order of the Church becomes also the good order of the family. And just as the monastery is a microcosm of the Church, so too is that family where God is rightly worshipped, and where His "chain of command" is upheld and respected.

Inferiority and Inequality

Does this mean that husbands are "superior" to their wives? Our society would see it as such, for the world today promotes the idea of two heads in a family, both the husband and the wife (in spite of the fact that from a worldly standpoint no organization or institution can withstand two chiefs at the same time!). No, there is but one head, again following the divine pattern given by Christ to the Church, where we find but one ruling bishop in a diocese and one rector in each parish. And just as bishops and priests must obey the Lord, wives must obey their husbands:
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church. (Eph. 5:22-23)

We know that in Christ "there is neither male nor female." Obviously, then, the husband is not superior to his wife. But just as the President of the United States has no innate worthiness not equally shared with all citizens, but is respected and obeyed only because of his office and calling so too a husband and wife are completely equal one to another in God' s eyes (for which reason St. Paul even commands: "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ"), but a husband is obeyed and respected because of his office ane calling, which were bestowed upon him mystically in the Sacrament of Marriage.

If, then, they are both equal in God's eyes, why did God choose the man to be head of the wife, instead of the other way round? Because it was Eve that initiated the first sin. Thus, all her descendants must be in obedience to their husbands, giving them the initiative in all things; similarly all the sons of Adam are required to assume their original place as leaders in the marriage relationship, the place which Adam only too willingly abrogated to Eve, thus joining in her sin.

In St, Paul's instructions to husbands and wives there is a great mystery, and a seeming contradiction. A husband is appointed head of his wife, but he is also to be her servant. How can this be? "Husbands," says the Apostle, "love your wives as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify her..." In other words, a husband's authority is commensurate with his willingness to empty himself like a sacrificial lamb, in this way actually "sanctifying" his wife. It is a wonderful and worthy calling for a man, but one which too few husbands actually strive to attain.

The Wife's Role

What happens if a husband doesn't take his responsibilities seriously, or makes mistakes as head of the wife? Must he still be obeyed? Yes, in all things not sinful, he must be obeyed. Of course, a wife's first obedience is always to God, but in all other things she must submit, just as the Church constantly--although sometimes with groaning--submits to the will of Christ. It is not easy, but if wives trust that God will not allow their husbands to mislead or mistreat them, or in any way endanger their salvation, there is already a firm spiritual foundation to the relationship. (Similarly we read of instances where a monk saved his soul by being in obedience to a bad, incompetent, or foolish abbot, so long as he sincerely obeyed him in all things not sinful.) If a wife is suffering because of her husband's unworthy leadership, and she accepts this as a cross sent by a loving God, then she begins to walk the soul-saving path of martyrdom , as Scripture says: "The first shall be last, and the last shall be first."
To be second in a marriage (in other words, to be the wife) is a positive good, not an evil, for God does not hold the wife is free of the burden of responsibility-and it is a terrible burden—in a way that her husband can never be. Fr. Konstantine compared this to the parish priest, who carried the heavy burden of his spiritual children on his shoulders all through his life, never escaping it for one moment, and being accountable for the entire burden, whereas his deacon, or his reader, is relatively free of these responsibilities and therefore in a more enviable position. Wives, he said, often make the mistake--especially in today's society-of taking that responsibility away from their husbands (as Eve tried to do with to Adam), and this is what creates the famous "power struggle" that is so unedifying and unsatisfying in conternporary marriages.

All this, of course, makes sense only if both husband and wife are looking seriously at the purpose of life and marriage. If we understand that our first love must be not our spouse, but God and His Church, then everything falls into its proper place, all is in good order, and life is fruitful and meaningful. In such a context no wife will be afraid of being in obedience to her husband, just as the Church is in perfect obedience to Christ. To live under obedience is a safeguard against temptation and therefore a truly blessed role.

People in the world, filled with pride, seek authority and position; they seek to rule over others, believing that this brings happiness. But Christ has taught us that happiness comes only through self-sacrifice (the husband) and obedience (the wife). Obedience cannot be forced; it must come from the heart, voluntarily--this is true love. We are only pilgrims, preparing for the next world; therefore, how can we fail to rule wisely, lovingly, and givingly, if we are husbands; And, if we are wives, how can we fail to be meek and humbly obedient supports to our husbands? In both of these consists true happiness, for in both is to be found the essence of man and woman, the undoing of the sin of Adam and Eve, and the path--through this world--to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Fr. Alexey Young

Authority and Obedience in Marriage
 
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Everlasting33

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God Blesses Through Obedience
Just as God's grace flowed to the Hebrew people through the hierarchy of the Old Testament Church's high priests, prophets, patriarchs, etc., in the same way this grace comes to us in the New Testament Church through bishops (who are the "fountain of the sacraments") and priests. And likened to them are husbands, as heads of their families. The husband who stands before God and intercedes for his wife and children, as the parish priest intercedes for his flock, truly receives God's blessing upon his family and all "the work of his hands."
Does the husband make every decision in a Christian marriage? In another post, I asked (which was not answered) that if a woman wants to go to schooling as a doctor, does the wife or the husband decide this?
 
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akeng

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The husband should support her decision to be a doctor so long as it does not place a significant burden on the family, there should be no kids in the relationship becasue she will not be able to work or take care of the kids while going to school full time (unless there is some kind of special arrangement where parents can watch the kids during the day and for a period of time afterwards to give the busy couple an hour of alone time), I went to school as an engineer and a job or a kid would have been a burden significant enough to potentially cause me to not be able to finish.

It also depends on the individual, if they are super smart they may be able to juggle things but I would be really careful with that because becomming a doctor is a 8-10 year proposition so you have to be able to comfortably live with whatever arrangements you set up in the beginning.

God Blesses Through Obedience
Just as God's grace flowed to the Hebrew people through the hierarchy of the Old Testament Church's high priests, prophets, patriarchs, etc., in the same way this grace comes to us in the New Testament Church through bishops (who are the "fountain of the sacraments") and priests. And likened to them are husbands, as heads of their families. The husband who stands before God and intercedes for his wife and children, as the parish priest intercedes for his flock, truly receives God's blessing upon his family and all "the work of his hands."
Does the husband make every decision in a Christian marriage? In another post, I asked (which was not answered) that if a woman wants to go to schooling as a doctor, does the wife or the husband decide this?
 
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Does this mean that husbands are "superior" to their wives? Our society would see it as such, for the world today promotes the idea of two heads in a family, both the husband and the wife (in spite of the fact that from a worldly standpoint no organization or institution can withstand two chiefs at the same time!). No, there is but one head, again following the divine pattern given by Christ to the Church, where we find but one ruling bishop in a diocese and one rector in each parish. And just as bishops and priests must obey the Lord, wives must obey their husbands:
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the Church. (Eph. 5:22-23)
Since there are happy marriages where there's no single leader but both people share all responsibility and make decisions together, it shows that this argument isn't true. There's no reason why the wives must obey their husbands instead of both people in marriage treating each other equally.


But just as the President of the United States has no innate worthiness not equally shared with all citizens, but is respected and obeyed only because of his office and calling so too a husband and wife are completely equal one to another in God' s eyes (for which reason St. Paul even commands: "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ"), but a husband is obeyed and respected because of his office ane calling, which were bestowed upon him mystically in the Sacrament of Marriage.
The difference is that the President made the decision to participate in elections, and was chosen by the people as someone who would represent them. But a person doesn't choose their gender, so this analogy isn't applicable here. It makes no sense to assign roles to someone just because of what they happen to have between their legs.
If, then, they are both equal in God's eyes, why did God choose the man to be head of the wife, instead of the other way round? Because it was Eve that initiated the first sin. Thus, all her descendants must be in obedience to their husbands, giving them the initiative in all things; similarly all the sons of Adam are required to assume their original place as leaders in the marriage relationship, the place which Adam only too willingly abrogated to Eve, thus joining in her sin.
If that was true, then all men would have natural leadership abilities, and all women would naturally lack them. However, since leadership abilities don't depend on someone's gender, it means that God created some men to be leaders, and some women to be leaders.


In professions such as the military there are certian rolls that ought not be filled by females such as direct combat postions, any position where your finger is on a trigger or you are in a position to be shot at.
What happens to a person when he/she is shot doesn't depend on their gender. So it makes no sense to make gender-based restrictions here.
I also think there are positions in buisness where a womans emotions can be her detriment, in buisness people dont nessicarily care about your feelings, there are alot of dynamics in buisness and most of them can not be viewed through an emotional lense.
Everyone has emotions, and the way someone experiences and is affected by them is an individual trait that isn't defined by someone's gender.
 
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akeng

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Yea thats true (refering to stuff I posted). I dont think women are really discriminated against other than maybe in some very narrow fields of work (certian units in the military, crab fishing, etc), other than thoes few niche areas I think women are pretty much equal, I am an engineer and work in a office area and have never seen any discrimination. Of course you have to be qualified but if you are your good to go.

Since there are happy marriages where there's no single leader but both people share all responsibility and make decisions together, it shows that this argument isn't true. There's no reason why the wives must obey their husbands instead of both people in marriage treating each other equally.



The difference is that the President made the decision to participate in elections, and was chosen by the people as someone who would represent them. But a person doesn't choose their gender, so this analogy isn't applicable here. It makes no sense to assign roles to someone just because of what they happen to have between their legs.

If that was true, then all men would have natural leadership abilities, and all women would naturally lack them. However, since leadership abilities don't depend on someone's gender, it means that God created some men to be leaders, and some women to be leaders.



What happens to a person when he/she is shot doesn't depend on their gender. So it makes no sense to make gender-based restrictions here.

Everyone has emotions, and the way someone experiences and is affected by them is an individual trait that isn't defined by someone's gender.
 
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Dorothea

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Since there are happy marriages where there's no single leader but both people share all responsibility and make decisions together, it shows that this argument isn't true. There's no reason why the wives must obey their husbands instead of both people in marriage treating each other equally.
Well, I think there's a bit too much nitpicking and technicality in all of this. The male is the head in a sense (spiritually and such) for the family, but the wife is also equal to him. There's no dominance over me in my marriage. Just to use an example. Our relationship is as equals, but the children know that Dad is the head because he is the breadwinner and supporter of us. They know traditional roles. they also know women work outside the home. I like the quote from the mother in my Big, Fat Greek Wedding (I'm half Greek), where she says, "The man is the head, but the woman is the neck." :D In other words, I don't think our roles are so submissive that we're sitting around letting our husbands controls us or be overbearing, but rather we respect their headship, and they respect our valuable and important role in the relationship. JMPO. Again, IOW, nobody lives the literal sense of "obeying" your husbands. At least not anybody I know. Mutual respect is involved.




If that was true, then all men would have natural leadership abilities, and all women would naturally lack them. However, since leadership abilities don't depend on someone's gender, it means that God created some men to be leaders, and some women to be leaders.
There is some natural makeup of men and women that are their strengths and weaknesses and also just what's embedded in them. Women are naturally the nurturers and in most cases the caregiving types. Men are the ones that are embedded with hunting, gathering, and protecting. I appreciate both of these. These differences compliment each other when they are together. Now, it does sound primitive, but those types of traits are built into the male and female, generally speaking. And yes, there can be women leaders. There were plenty of Empresses way back in the day. :)
 
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Nadiine

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yes =)
That's all we've been saying and proposing, it's that simple;
you made the important point that it isn't anything more
than that basic 'structure' in headship - but it doesn't change
anything as if we become barefoot maids to serve the 'king
on his throne'.

I also agree that this is 'hardwired' into the male as well.

Great post.

It's as if it's being turned into something it's not. I just heard
yet another Pastor of a Christian radio ministry talk about headship
in the home (family structure) - he said that EVERY element in
humanity has a headship order to it.
Where you work, your government, your home, your church,
etc. Everywhere we are, God has designated a chain of authority
for structure and accountability.
And each head/leader is then accountable to God for what they
did, didn't do, where they led, etc.

Each authoratative position is more responsible to God for us.
Look at what James told us about a teacher's position:
James 3

1 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers,

knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

A Shepherd is accountable to God for their sheep they led - and
the husband is no different.
 
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Tissue

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yes =)
That's all we've been saying and proposing, it's that simple;
you made the important point that it isn't anything more
than that basic 'structure' in headship - but it doesn't change
anything as if we become barefoot maids to serve the 'king
on his throne'.

I also agree that this is 'hardwired' into the male as well.

Let's not forget, though, that not all men are good at leadership, and women can be leaders as well. It's certainly imaginable that a happy marriage can exist in which the woman is 'the head' (though, again, I see no reason why both cannot be 'the head').

It's as if it's being turned into something it's not. I just heard
yet another Pastor of a Christian radio ministry talk about headship
in the home (family structure) - he said that EVERY element in
humanity has a headship order to it.
Where you work, your government, your home, your church,
etc. Everywhere we are, God has designated a chain of authority
for structure and accountability.

Some churches, such as many Mennonite churches, have no established, singular 'head'.

I think this idea of 'headship', in which one person assumes executive powers (with varying degrees of responsibility and accountability toward others) is just something we're used to, and something that is easy to set-up. But we should not think that a large organization, such as a church or a government, is a reasonable model for a close-knit, societal unit.

A Shepherd is accountable to God for their sheep they led - and
the husband is no different.

Your language here marks exactly what many of us are wary about. The husband need not be the leader of the household. There are happy marriages in which the husband and wife submit equally to one another, and hold power equally.
 
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yes =)
That's all we've been saying and proposing, it's that simple;
you made the important point that it isn't anything more
than that basic 'structure' in headship - but it doesn't change
anything as if we become barefoot maids to serve the 'king
on his throne'.

I also agree that this is 'hardwired' into the male as well.

And, once again, you are entitled to your INTERPRETATION. Please don't assume that your INTERPRETATION is any more or less valid than any other INTERPRETATION.

BTW, I am still awaiting a response to my post #1230.
 
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