• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Zero Accountability

Yusuf Evans

Well-Known Member
Aug 17, 2005
10,057
611
Iraq
✟13,443.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Married
I have a question for everyone. Yesterday at our Royal Rangers Youth event, several of the commanders and myself were having a conversation on the school systems of today. Here in Hawaii, they have started what has become the zero accountability program in public schools. Basically, the kids are never set on a time frame to submit homework, and their test scores are never given a definite right or wrong answer. One of the commanders helped his student out with a homework assignment and they went and asked the teacher if it was the right or wrong answer. She said, maybe. Maybe what?

Is this the way the school system is in the mainland U.S. now? Where we worry more about hurting kids feelings than making them stronger academically and helping them establish a strong foothold in the world?. All comments are welcome, but please no flaming.
 

justanobserver

Still Wondering...
Oct 26, 2005
6,661
647
✟32,559.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
My boys live in a different part of the state from me and I am not always kept up to date with on their academic progressions (or lack thereof). So, the only way I find out sometimes how they are doing is I get a notice in the mail from the school telling me that one of my little darlins (both are teenage boys) aint doin too well and the usual reason is not turning in homework. So, I then call down, ask the ex wassup, she defers me to him/them and I get the best tap dance ever done - politicians can take a lesson!

Then comes my questions as to what, why, how, where, when, suggestions, ideas, tap dance classes to go professional later in life, encouragements, step up the plate, cowboy up, do whats right, be a good boy, let him know theres still some butt left to chew, etc. and then in return listen to the ideas given to write a best seller of exscuses for all occassions. Them boys sure are imaginative!

The last notice was just over a week ago and the 15 yr old did bring some classes up a grade.

Dont know if that answers your question but thats what is going on in a city in central coast county of CA - they expect homework by a schedule and notify the non custodial parent if it dont happen.
 
Upvote 0

loriersea

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,216
231
48
Detroit, MI
Visit site
✟26,071.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I have never heard of anything like that, and I have taken a number of ed classes and learned about a number of different progressive pedagogical and assessment methods. There is either more to this than we are hearing, or Hawaiian schools are run by people who don't know a thing about education.

As to not having a time frame for homework, that could or could not be a problem. Sometimes teachers don't check homework. In that case, the students who do it learn the material, and those who don't, don't. I have no problem with that, especially in the later grades. It helps students to take responsibility for their own learning. Nine times out of ten in college, homework is not checked. The accountability comes when you are tested on the material. If you did the homework all along, you are in good shape for the exam; if you didn't, you have to cram it all in at the end and won't do as well. There is accountability, it just comes at test time, rather than homework time, and I think that is a better system for older students. At work, your boss isn't going to check your work at every point, most of the time; they will simply want to see the end product. So, developing the motivation to complete a project without having a teacher holding your hand the entire time can be a good thing, as long as the teacher makes himself or herself available to any student needing help.

But, the idea of a teacher saying "Maybe" to whether or not an answer is right is insane. No good teacher would say that, unless they honestly weren't sure and were going to check and get back to the student. But, as a teacher, you can asks questions that have a right or wrong answer, and you can ask questions that don't. If you ask questions that have a right or wrong answer, then they are either right or wrong. If you ask questions that don't have a right or wrong answer, then they are neither right nor wrong. In no case would a competant teacher ask a question to which the answer of whether or not it was correct is "maybe." (Unless, of course, they honestly didn't know and had to check. Believe me, it is far less embarassing to tell a student "I don't know, but I'll find out and tell you next class" when they ask about something--like the kind of weird, intricate grammar questions my students sometime ask--than to make up an answer and have the student go and look it up and tell you you were wrong. After that, you have NO credibility to that student.)

I have never heard of any teacher doing that, nor have I ever seen that recommend as a pedagogical practice, in even the most radical of pedagogies. There are ways to tell a student they are wrong without making them feel bad. If you ask a student what the capital of Michigan is, and they say Detroit, you don't have to give them a curt "No" or a "Come on, you should know by now the capital is Lansing." You can say something like, "I can see why you might think that, since Detroit is the largest city in Michigan, but it isn't the capital. Can anyone help _______ with what the capital of Michigan is?" As a teacher, it can be really helpful to figure out not just if a student is right or wrong, but why they are wrong, when they are wrong. In this case, you can assume that the student thought that Detroit was the capital of Michigan because it is Michigan's largest city, and that does make sense, even if it is wrong. If you can try to get into your students' heads and figure out why they have the wrong answers they do (because wrong answers sometimes come out of nowhere, but not usually), then you can address and correct their wrong prior assumptions (such as "Detroit must be the capital of Michigan because it is the largest city there") which makes it more likely that they will retain the correct information. You don't cut down their self-esteem by making them feel like only an idiot would think Detroit is the capital of Michigan, but neither do you let them go on thinking that it is.

And, then there are questions that don't have right or wrong answers. When I teach college writing, it is very rare that I ask a question that has a right or wrong answer; usually, that only happens when I'm covering grammar, and that's generally a small part of the class. Most of the time, though, my students' essays are not "right" or "wrong" but "better" or "worse." If I ask them to write an essay explicating a poem, there are answers that might be wrong, but there are also many answers that can be right. The real question is whether they can support their interpretation with evidence, not whether they are "right" or "wrong." Same thing when they write about other things. In the last class I taught we did a unit on social issues, and their assignment was to write an essay in which they examined a contemporary social issue, explored several different arguments on either side of the issue, and then presented their own take on the issue. Several students wrote about gay marriage. A couple supported it, a few were unsure, and one was against it. Neither stance was "right" or "wrong"; it was all a matter of how well they supported their arguments. They all did a good job of it and I think I ended up giving all of them As or Bs. But, obviously, the answer to if they were right wasn't "maybe," it was "that's not a relevant question."

So, again, I have never heard of this, and I cannot imagine it is common practice in Hawaiian schools--and I KNOW it isn't common practice in mainland schools--to tell students "maybe" in regards to a right or wrong answer. And, unless the class is using a portfolio system where the work is graded at the end of the term, I can't imagine most teachers simply don't care when work is handed in. I have taught classes where I've allowed students to come up with their own plan of work (I tell them they need to produce 25-30 pages of writing by the end of the term, that half the pages must be handed in by midterm, and that they must write at least two papers and at least one paper over 7 pages, for example, and then they figure out how they want to negotiate that--they can write two 13-page papers, or four 7-page papers, or one 7-page paper and 6 3-page papers, or whatever combination they would like), but that is to make them more accountable for their own learning, not less. I don't do it all the time, though, because it is hard for me to be constantly grading papers, which is what usually happens. In an ideal world, though, I would probably always do that. But, again, it's different from having no due dates, and I cannot imagine a teacher having a class with no due dates.

So if the teacher is doing this, I'd look at either a new teacher or a new school, because there is just no way this is a common practice. As a teacher, it really bothers me to think that there are teachers out there telling students "maybe" regarding whether an answer is right or wrong, because that is never an appropriate answer.
 
Upvote 0

fillerbunny

Well-Known Member
Feb 16, 2006
742
120
43
Southern New England
✟31,521.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I think that, as a whole, our society has a very unhealthy obsession with grades and test scores. There is no need for the public schools to be such a high-stress environment, especially when it comes to younger children. Some districts are even removing recess in an effort to give kids more time in the classroom.. which, as far as I'm concerned, is utter insanity. Kids learn through play, too.. and, at an early age, that's perhaps more important than the indoctrination they're receiving behind the desk.

I have a lot of issues with the public school system. It may work for some, but it didn't work for me. If I have the resources available and my future children wish to homeschool, I would be willing to do it in a heartbeat.

That said, I don't think swinging towards the opposite extreme does children any favors, either.. whatever happened to moderation?
 
Upvote 0

loriersea

Well-Known Member
Oct 11, 2005
2,216
231
48
Detroit, MI
Visit site
✟26,071.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
fillerbunny said:
I have a lot of issues with the public school system. It may work for some, but it didn't work for me. If I have the resources available and my future children wish to homeschool, I would be willing to do it in a heartbeat.

I'm a huge supporter of public education, but my husband and I are seriously considering homeschooling our children or sending them to a progressive private school, for elementary school, depending on where we are living. If we end up in an area where the schools actually foster learning rather than test-taking, that will be great, but unfortunately those are getting harder and harder to find. If we are still in Detroit when my son is ready for school, we'll either send him to the Quaker school or homeschool him, because the schools here, as "failing" schools, are entirely dictated by standardized tests, and I cannot imagine a curriculum that could kill a child's natural desire to learn faster.

It's really sad how many people I know who feel the same way. I know a lot of people in education who are public school teachers or have been public school teachers and are now teacher educators, who won't send their kids to public schools. They love the idea of public education, but the methods in most public schools are so far from what we know actually engages children and sparks their desire to learn, and instead impose this "one size fits all, better pass that test" mindset, that it's hard to knowingly put your child into that situation.
 
Upvote 0

MoonlessNight

Fides et Ratio
Sep 16, 2003
10,217
3,523
✟63,049.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Is this the way the school system is in the mainland U.S. now? Where we worry more about hurting kids feelings than making them stronger academically and helping them establish a strong foothold in the world?

Here in the midwest we just give everyone A's.

What I mean is (from what I've observed) you will get told that you are wrong and that you need improvement, but your final grade will almost always end up being an A or A minus. If you really mess up a lot and don't know what is going on you might get a B, and if you put absolutely no effort into the subject you might (God forbid) get a C.

Grade inflation is getting kind of ridiculous. I'm currently completing my last year of undergraduate college, and you can even see it here, albeit to a much lesser degree (people feel entitled to getting an A even when their work is just over mediocre, but at least they know that if they don't learn anything and don't do any work they will fail).
 
Upvote 0

MoonlessNight

Fides et Ratio
Sep 16, 2003
10,217
3,523
✟63,049.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
I think in the end I would prefer a self-motivated no accountability program because it cuts out the busywork and bureaucratic nonsense and gets to the heart of actually learning the subject. But of course that's never going to work in an environment where education is forced.
 
Upvote 0