Your WORKS won't do it.

[Kenny'sID]

I just gave you one.
Here is another:
Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

And that is proof we have no control over it?

Do you even recall what I asked proof of, because that has nothing to do with it.

 

[Ilikecats]

And that is proof we have no control over it?

Do you even recall what I asked proof of, because that has nothing to do with it.

You clearly don’t understand what I posted. Before you are saved you are of the world. Your sorrow or repentance cannot save you it brings death. The sorrow from God will save you and cause you to repent. Do you have control over sorrow? Of course not. It’s either sorrow from you (the world in your fallen state) or its from God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes, you're right..we are moved by His Spirit and making us good and to do good...
He's Not forcing Himself on us, but He made us accept Him by the Wisdom He also gave us....
Hopefully I don't misunderstand your position. ..

OK, looks like we agree. You kept coming back as if there was something in my posts you disagreed with but maybe that wasn't your point.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You clearly don’t understand what I posted. Before you are saved you are of the world. Your sorrow or repentance cannot save you it brings death. The sorrow from God will save you and cause you to repent. Do you have control over sorrow? Of course not. It’s either sorrow from you (the world in your fallen state) or its from God.

You posted this:

God causes you to repent it was never in your control.

As well as the following, and I have no idea where you got the following from in the bible. It sounds like someones point of view with no biblical backing. So since I've nailed down your basis for the "no control over it" comment, now tell me where you got the following from, where is the scripture to back it up:

The sorrow from God will save you and cause you to repent.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Completely wrong. Read Romans 3:

There is none righteous, no, not one.

There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight

Being justified freely by his grace

No, you, completely wrong.


Read the following and then answer this one question, Can we be righteous?

“Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” Matthew 13:43.

The mouth of the righteous is a well of life … But the righteous has an everlasting foundation.” Proverbs 10:6-7,11,25.

“Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” Matthew 13:43.

“And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46.

 

[Ilikecats]

You posted this:



As well as the following, and I have no idea where you got the following from in the bible. It sounds like someones point of view with no biblical backing. So since I've nailed down your basis for the "no control over it" comment, now tell me where you got the following from, where is the scripture to back it up:

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

Brings repentance that leads to salvation. Salvation=saved.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

Brings repentance that leads to salvation. Salvation=saved.

There is nothing there that says we have no control over it. I'm thinking that is just someones view of the scripture, at least until someone proves otherwise. Seems all you keep saying is, that's what those scriptures mean to you, but some of us see nothing of the sort. And that type of view of scripture is usually brought on by it being taught to us, not something that is directly from the bible.

We have full control over if we are saved or not, we either accept the deal God offers, and act right, or we choose to live it up now, and pay the price that Christ offered to pay for us if we simply accept him as savior and do as he asks of us, and carry a light yoke, but a yoke nonetheless.

This:

God causes you to repent it was never in your control.

Has yet to be proven correct. From what I gather in my trying to get biblical proof it's a fact, there is no proof, as no one will post it. I mean the scripture has to say it specifically, it can't be someones idea of what a scripture means, unless it's pretty obvious.

I'll look into it myself if someone will tell me where the "we have no control over it" comes from, who teaches that?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Addressing point 1-God gives born again believers a new heart that desires to do his will. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, not by the written code. Romans 2:29
Addressing point 2- I agree with that. People will be judged for what they do.

The Godly sorrow mentioned states that it will lead to salvation. When you are saved you are saved. The sorrow is not from the world but from God himself.

Why does a new heart desire to do God's will?

(I agree with the rest)

God CAUSES our heart to change...He works within us to make us become more like we were meant to be from the beginning before the fall.

Romans 12:1 pleads with us to present our bodies as a living sacrifice to God,,living and holy and acceptable which is our spiritual service.
Romans 12:2 exhorts us not to be conformed to this world, but to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.

The above shows that at salvation, we are helped by the Holy Spirit to change our attitude, to change our way of living, God does this through our own free will as Romans 12:1, 2 show.

These verses would not be necessary if God just gave us a new heart and did everything for us as some believe.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 2 Corinthians 7:10

Brings repentance that leads to salvation. Salvation=saved.

This is correct.
Sorrow is sadness that one has offended God (or others).
Regret is sadness because the outcome was not as wanted, or because there have been personal effects.

One leads to God, as you've stated.
One leads to just feeling sorry for oneself.

I like how the difference is explained here:

Recognizing Godly Sorrow vs Worldly Sorrow — Pure Life Ministries

 

[timothyu]

The church should be saving souls and not partnering with the world (as I believe is happening today as never before).

Exactly. How can they save us from ourselves by being that which we need saving from?

Actually I think it may have started sooner. The Latin church lost the civil war and it took them years, maybe centuries, to regain power. The power struggle was on on before Constantine. That proves they were on the wrong track before that as the clash was between man and not Kingdom vs world of man.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Exactly. How can they save us from ourselves by being that which we need saving from?

Actually I think it may have started sooner. The Latin church lost the civil war and it took them years, maybe centuries, to regain power. The power struggle was on on before Constantine. That proves they were on the wrong track before that as the clash was between man and not Kingdom vs world of man.

I agree with you and the first paragraph made me smile in agreement.

But you say that the troubles began before Constantine.
I can say that there were many in the early church that tried to create heretical doctrine...such as Arias or the Manachaens or the gnostics....but we do have to admit that the church was victorious in disallowing these heretical beliefs from entering the church. I believe the problems really started with Augustine,,,who was a brain, but for whom I have little respect. I think the early church (the 400's) accepted him because he was so good at fighting heretics. I think he was also misunderstood by the reformed church of the 1600's and of today because they only took from his doctrine what they liked and ignored the rest. (predestination).

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are NO verses in the Bible, both Testaments included... that say Jesus, once in you, will leave you if you are a bad Christian, etc.
He is sealed in there, along with the Holy Spirit, unless the bible is lying.

Jesus does promise you Eternal Life, and this promise has NO CONDITIONS, once you are born again, unless Jesus is lying. (Now, heretics/ legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

There are NO verses in the Bible, both testaments included, that say you can fall out of Christ, or become disconnected from Christ. (now heretics /Legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

And there is a reason for that...

You can't.

=====================================================

People who are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in Christ...who talk about "holding unto your faith, is how you keep yourself saved", have not understood that God does not save you by your faith. What He does is accept your faith, to then SAVE YOU BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS. "faith is counted as righteousness", but...faith is not the Blood of Jesus..>Its just the means that God accepts to give you that Blood Atonement and the Righteousness of Christ....as "the GIFT of Righteousness". = BORN AGAIN.

Think of this. Think of all the things that a heretic- religious person believes that they have to do, so that God will take them and keep them... Now do all those things...., keep the Torah, keep the commandments, keep the law, love God and your neighbor as yourself, be water baptized........but do this also.........Take Jesus off the Cross. Put Him back into heaven. No cross, No blood, no death, no sacrifice.

Now, keep doing all that stuff. Keep those commandments. Live that holy life.. Take those sacraments. Join that "one true church"... Keep that golden rule. Get water baptized a few times " for the remission of your sin". Love your neighbor as yourself. Keep the law. Die a Martyr..... Do all that for 1000 yrs.

Are you saved by any or all of it?

I'll ask you again, are you saved by any or all of it? Are your sins forgiven by all that? Are you Born Again by that 1000 yrs of WORKS?

You're not?

And why is that?

If you can answer that correctly, in your own heart, then you are describing the Gospel of the GRACE OF GOD, in Truth.
For some of you, that'll be the first time you ever realized it.

What is your interpretation of John 15:1-10?

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are NO verses in the Bible, both Testaments included... that say Jesus, once in you, will leave you if you are a bad Christian, etc.
He is sealed in there, along with the Holy Spirit, unless the bible is lying.

Jesus does promise you Eternal Life, and this promise has NO CONDITIONS, once you are born again, unless Jesus is lying. (Now, heretics/ legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

There are NO verses in the Bible, both testaments included, that say you can fall out of Christ, or become disconnected from Christ. (now heretics /Legalist will lie about this, but Jesus didn't.)

And there is a reason for that...

You can't.

=====================================================

People who are trusting in Faith, instead of trusting in Christ...who talk about "holding unto your faith, is how you keep yourself saved", have not understood that God does not save you by your faith. What He does is accept your faith, to then SAVE YOU BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS. "faith is counted as righteousness", but...faith is not the Blood of Jesus..>Its just the means that God accepts to give you that Blood Atonement and the Righteousness of Christ....as "the GIFT of Righteousness". = BORN AGAIN.

Think of this. Think of all the things that a heretic- religious person believes that they have to do, so that God will take them and keep them... Now do all those things...., keep the Torah, keep the commandments, keep the law, love God and your neighbor as yourself, be water baptized........but do this also.........Take Jesus off the Cross. Put Him back into heaven. No cross, No blood, no death, no sacrifice.

Now, keep doing all that stuff. Keep those commandments. Live that holy life.. Take those sacraments. Join that "one true church"... Keep that golden rule. Get water baptized a few times " for the remission of your sin". Love your neighbor as yourself. Keep the law. Die a Martyr..... Do all that for 1000 yrs.

Are you saved by any or all of it?

I'll ask you again, are you saved by any or all of it? Are your sins forgiven by all that? Are you Born Again by that 1000 yrs of WORKS?

You're not?

And why is that?

If you can answer that correctly, in your own heart, then you are describing the Gospel of the GRACE OF GOD, in Truth.
For some of you, that'll be the first time you ever realized it.

Apostasy is loaded throughout the scriptures.

“"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:9-13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY. BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:35-39‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you. You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭1:13-15‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:66‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:18-20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:17-18‬ ‭NASB‬‬

These are just a few of the many verses warning about apostasy. There are still many more I could provide.

 

[timothyu]

But you say that the troubles began before Constantine.

Yes I maintain that. Certainly heretics were weeded out and an unofficial but similar canon created, yes. But the church was meant to be truth from God, not man. The church we had by then was human. The problem came due to a gentile tradition of systematic division where the followers no longer lived a way of life as promoted by Jesus but under an institutional system, a government modelled not on the governance of God, but previous governments of man. This set the path for an easy assimilation with Rome at a later date because the two were on the same wavelength instead of opposite and separate as intended.

Not saying this was not part of God's plan. He knew the nature of man and especially the gentiles so He simply used them for His purpose (time of the Gentiles). It's not about us as so many assume, but about the Kingdom. How much do we know of the early Jewish church through the first two hundred years? Very little as they were destined to be absorbed and the Jewish nation scattered. So it was imperative that non epistle scripture, rather than becoming obscure or lost, made it's way through history. Not as a foundation for a way of life as intended (except for those who figure that out) but within a human government called Gentile Christianity... a religion. It survived within the enemy.

The later problems you spoke of were IMO due to a government of man, not the governance of the Kingdom.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes I maintain that. Certainly heretics were weeded out and an unofficial but similar canon created, yes. But the church was meant to be truth from God, not man. The church we had by then was human. The problem came due to a gentile tradition of systematic division where the followers no longer lived a way of life as promoted by Jesus but under an institutional system, a government modelled not on the governance of God, but previous governments of man. This set the path for an easy assimilation with Rome at a later date because the two were on the same wavelength instead of opposite and separate as intended.

Not saying this was not part of God's plan. He knew the nature of man and especially the gentiles so He simply used them for His purpose (time of the Gentiles). It's not about us as so many assume, but about the Kingdom. How much do we know of the early Jewish church through the first two hundred years? Very little as they were destined to be absorbed and the Jewish nation scattered. So it was imperative that non epistle scripture, rather than becoming obscure or lost, made it's way through history. Not as a foundation for a way of life as intended (except for those who figure that out) but within a human government called Gentile Christianity... a religion. It survived within the enemy.

The later problems you spoke of were IMO due to a government of man, not the governance of the Kingdom.

Yes. What I was talking about is the problems the church created for itself here in Europe in the early days by becoming a part of the govt. Bishops here actually ruled cities and regions and the spirituality was drained out of the church.

Just thinking about forgiveness of sins having to be paid for by some corrupt persons in the church and the selling of indulgences which brought about the reformation would be enough...but it goes way beyond that...I think of the inquisition --- unbelievable stuff coming from "Christians".

I don't know about the Jewish church in the first two hundred years,,,but we do know a lot about the Early Church Fathers in that time period. Although most Christians are not too interested in them..