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As you probably know, much of the heat on communion between Lutherans and Reformed comes from Calvin's insistence that Christ's body can only be present in one place at a time. This isn't something I commonly hear in the PCUSA.
I am reminded of Father Girzone's excellent fictional account of ecumenism with one bishop leading each area's Catholic, Lutheran, Orthodox and Methodist churches.
We will be on that day. That's what Christ was praying for. So in faith you are right. We will be one in him so we are one in him in faith. But as it is, even born again believers have their disagreements. Just look at Paul and Barnabas. There disagreement was so sharp that they had to split ways.
You may be right. Especially if they are looking to reunite without any doctrinal agreement but just forced...united pastoralship or something; and uniting all the wrong things too.Ecumenism agenda within the 21st century constructs, will bring in the Abomination of Desolation and to remove the Daily Sacrifice.
It is the last hour!
You may be right. Especially if they are looking to reunite without any doctrinal agreement but just forced...united pastoralship or something; and uniting all the wrong things too.
If I read you right I have to say I agree to all that. Except for the part "within the church establishment itself" Whatever "church" the antichrist is a part of will have nothing to do with the church of God. Pretty much as Catholicism is being totally absorbed into mankind and is losing any visible features of godliness so also will this syndicate be. That's why I'd call it a syndicate than a church.When the Abomination that makes desolate within the constructs of God's spiritual Temple is introduced, the Daily Sacrifice must be replaced with it, within the Church Establishment itself. Jesus is removed from his proper throne of authority and man is placed at the forefront, in conforming with the trending ways of the world.
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. (Romans 12:1-2)
If I read you right I have to say I agree to all that. Except for the part "within the church establishment itself" Whatever "church" the antichrist is a part of will have nothing to do with the church of God. Pretty much as Catholicism is being totally absorbed into mankind and is losing any visible features of godliness so also will this syndicate be. That's why I'd call it a syndicate than a church.
Hedrick, I think sometimes ecumenically oriented statements can simply be sources of confusion. For instance, our joint document with the Reformed churches called Marburg Revisited (I'm not sure if it can be considered status confessionis exactly, but it's been referenced enough), where we suppossedly agree that our different views of the Eucharist are merely acceptable diversity. And what are the fruits of it? Our kids are continuing to be catechized the same way they always have . So what was really done with Marburg Revisited? It's mostly two things 1) a gesture of goodwill towards fellow Christians with whom we share a great deal of theological common ground 2) a potentially confusing message and witness to the outside world about what our churches really believe, teach, and confess.
Lets put it this way. In our congregation some people bow at the Words of Institution or the elevation of the bread because we really believe Christ is present there. Some Presbyterians, no doubt, consider that highly problematic, flirting with idolatry. And yet Marburg Revisited can give the false impression these differences are mere trivialities and obscure differences that still exist within our respective traditions.
A Reformed Christian might say, so what? After all, typically Reformed concede less in ecumenical dialogues like this. But from the Lutheran perspective this goes closer to the heart of a sacramental worldview that pervades our theology, hymns and our liturgy.
My desire is That Everyone who believes The Nicene Creed / Apostles’ Creed be that We Are All One Church.
That We Are One as Jesus and The Father Are One.
yesWas that "The Shepherd" ?
I've read a few of Joseph Girzone's books ...
What are your personal beliefs on ecumenism, even in Christian churches?
Maybe God is bringing about what I said. I read up on that movement and so far, there doesn't seem to be a focus on ecumenism with this movement. When apostleship is the very thing needed to do unite the churches you would think this would be their focus but rather they are focused on this:
So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. ~1 Corinthians 14:12
There is a clear emphasis on manifestations of the spirit and this has nothing to do with the authority of apostleship but rather the working of a prophet. So in my judgment they are prophets, not apostles.
The NAR is totally involved in ecumenicalism, maybe you are not paying close attention.
I have a much different attitude toward the various joint statements. I believe that they bear witness to the world that our differences are so much less important than our common faith. I'll give three examples. There are many more, for example the joint statements by Anglicans and Orthodox.
LUTHERANS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS
For almost 5 centuries, Lutherans and Catholics refused to accept each other as being Christian. After Vatican II, there were many discussions culminating with the Joint Statement on Justification in 1986. While many of the elders and congregants disagreed, this witnessed to the world that we are of one faith.
ORTHODOX AND ROMAN CATHOLIC
The joint statements at Rivenna (and later) witnessed to the world that we are of one faith, and carefully discussed differences including JOINTLY accepting the Bishop of Rome as the primus, the first among patriarchs (Moscow wasn't there).
EVANGELICALS AND CATHOLICS
Both realized the paradox and the open question. Was the Holy Spirit speaking to and guiding both faith communities. Or was one being lead the Evil One. They used the Apostle's Creed, and prayed and discussed together for months. The joint statement (actually a book) witnessed to the world that we are of one faith.
BOTTOM LINE
We MUST understand that our mission to the world is harmed greatly by giving the impressions to unbelievers that we are not of one faith. Open bickering is simply not acceptable.
I understand why this happens. I find it particularly harmful to split up faith communities because of different understanding of the definitions and requirements of the sacraments of marriage and holy orders. We share one faith and one Creed.
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