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The problem I have is that Christianity believes atheism is worse than murder! And to me, call me crazy, that is unjust.
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Your View on Christian Morality
- Thread starter mulimulix
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The problem I have is that Christianity believes atheism is worse than murder! And to me, call me crazy, that is unjust.
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You are setting up a "straw God" based on ignorance and false assumptions. You continue to insist that the punishment of the unbeliever is eternal torment (which would be unjust as God says 'let the punishment fit the crime' i.e "eye for eye, tooth for tooth, LIFE FOR LIFE). Also, many very 'good' people will 'sleep' forever as they are not among the chosen. So eat, drink, and be merry. God has given you threescore and ten years to enjoy the earth and all it's pleasures.
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Atheism is no worse than murder. They are both sin. All sins will cause your soul to perish, unless you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and repent of your sins. Doing this will grant you eternal life.
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aiki
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I don't quite follow...As I've said - and as others have, too - God will forgive atheism and murder both. All that is required is genuine confession and repentance. So how do you arrive at the notion that Christians think atheism is worse than murder? God's view is that both are sin and thus both are deserving of hell - just like gosip, or arrogance, or gluttony. etc.
What I still find very peculiar is that you appeal to justice in your objection to what you believe Christians think about your atheism. As an atheist, from where do you derive your idea of justice? If God is not the source of it, all you are left with as the origin of justice are, in the end, impersonal, naturalistic mechanisms. But how do these random, impersonal processes produce something like justice? And how do you know that your sense of justice is correct, that it ought to be followed?
Selah.
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Harry3142
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Mulimulix-
A few years ago a man took a glass jug filled from an industrial chemical facility where he was working. He promptly poured the contents of this jug into a pond. This pond led to a stream, which led to a river, which led to one of the major rivers here in the USA.
Fortunately, word of what he had done spread immediately and the proper authorities were called in. They promptly called in heavy equipment operators, who used their equipment to totally dam up the water for miles around that pond. Because they reacted so quickly they succeeded in preventing the chemical from reaching the river.
And why did they react so quickly? It was due to the chemical's lethality. What the man had poured into the river was so toxic that 1 drop in 1 million gallons of water would render the water poisonous.
Our teaching is that God has the same attitude toward sin. He will not overlook any sin, and he considers it as poisoning everything else we might do. With him there is no such thing as 'good enough'. Either we are perfect or we are condemned, if our eternal life is to be dependent on our own works.
It doesn't matter what that sin is. I have heard, and read, that there are some sins which God is more tolerant of than he is of others. But this is not supported by Scripture. If we commit any sin, we have poisoned our souls as effectively as that chemical poisoned all the water it came in contact with.
But in our teaching God is not just the Author of Justice; if he were we would all be condemned. He is also the Epitome of Mercy. He knew that he was dealing with a bunch of 'screw-ups' who couldn't do anything right, especially when it came to measuring up to his standard of perfection. So, rather than just write us off and go on about his business, he laid out the plan for a rescue mission. This rescue mission had one purpose, which was to ensure our salvation by paying the penalty for our sins himself, and then freely offering the righteousness which he had earned for us to us. By laying out this plan and then carrying it out to a successful conclusion, God earned the righteousness for us that we could never earn if left to our own devices.
So what are we to do? We are to accept the righteousness which God offers to us, without trying to augment it or 'bury' it in a lot of legalistic claptrap. This is why we call it 'salvation by grace'. No one can earn it, and no one can augment it. We must accept it as a free gift earned on our behalf by God himself, and offered to anyone who chooses to accept it as a free gift:
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)
There is the sole foundation of Christianity. It is not Jesus + The Mosaic Law, Jesus + The Messianic Law, Jesus + ecclesiastical laws, or Jesus + accepting some personal agenda. God has 'boxed us in' too effectively for any of those options to be viable. Our foundation is Jesus Christ himself; he lived, he died, he lives again. And because he lives, we too shall live.
A few years ago a man took a glass jug filled from an industrial chemical facility where he was working. He promptly poured the contents of this jug into a pond. This pond led to a stream, which led to a river, which led to one of the major rivers here in the USA.
Fortunately, word of what he had done spread immediately and the proper authorities were called in. They promptly called in heavy equipment operators, who used their equipment to totally dam up the water for miles around that pond. Because they reacted so quickly they succeeded in preventing the chemical from reaching the river.
And why did they react so quickly? It was due to the chemical's lethality. What the man had poured into the river was so toxic that 1 drop in 1 million gallons of water would render the water poisonous.
Our teaching is that God has the same attitude toward sin. He will not overlook any sin, and he considers it as poisoning everything else we might do. With him there is no such thing as 'good enough'. Either we are perfect or we are condemned, if our eternal life is to be dependent on our own works.
It doesn't matter what that sin is. I have heard, and read, that there are some sins which God is more tolerant of than he is of others. But this is not supported by Scripture. If we commit any sin, we have poisoned our souls as effectively as that chemical poisoned all the water it came in contact with.
But in our teaching God is not just the Author of Justice; if he were we would all be condemned. He is also the Epitome of Mercy. He knew that he was dealing with a bunch of 'screw-ups' who couldn't do anything right, especially when it came to measuring up to his standard of perfection. So, rather than just write us off and go on about his business, he laid out the plan for a rescue mission. This rescue mission had one purpose, which was to ensure our salvation by paying the penalty for our sins himself, and then freely offering the righteousness which he had earned for us to us. By laying out this plan and then carrying it out to a successful conclusion, God earned the righteousness for us that we could never earn if left to our own devices.
So what are we to do? We are to accept the righteousness which God offers to us, without trying to augment it or 'bury' it in a lot of legalistic claptrap. This is why we call it 'salvation by grace'. No one can earn it, and no one can augment it. We must accept it as a free gift earned on our behalf by God himself, and offered to anyone who chooses to accept it as a free gift:
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)
There is the sole foundation of Christianity. It is not Jesus + The Mosaic Law, Jesus + The Messianic Law, Jesus + ecclesiastical laws, or Jesus + accepting some personal agenda. God has 'boxed us in' too effectively for any of those options to be viable. Our foundation is Jesus Christ himself; he lived, he died, he lives again. And because he lives, we too shall live.
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talitha
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Jesus said that eternal life is knowing God. So, it's not about what you know, nor even how "good" you are. It's about WHOM you know. You can think about Heaven as an eternal victory party, with tickets provided for everyone who personally knows the host. No one can pay enough money, build enough churches, help enough people, or avoid enough bad deeds to get in to the party. It's all inconsequential when it comes to getting in the door. Only one thing matters. Is your name on the guest list?
"If I committed murder, or even genocide for that matter, but sincerely and graciously asked for God's forgiveness, would I get it?" Sincerely asking for Gods forgiveness means that you believe there is a God, and that you believe that He rewards those who seek Him. That is the bottom line entry-level requirement to be in right standing with God. (Hebrews 11:6)
...I then pointed out that for the sole reason that I am an atheist, I cannot be forgiven. You say that as if being an atheist is your identity rather than your belief system. You can totally be forgiven if you stop being an atheist and believe in God. Unbelief is a sin, not a part of your identity.
According to this, Atheism is a worse crime than murder or even genocide. You are right! But even if a small part of you believes or wants to believe, you can pray the prayer of Mark 9:24 - "I do believe; help my unbelief!" I once thought I had lost my ability to believe, and I prayed that prayer. It was years later, but God brought me back to belief in answer to that prayer.
Well, first of all, do you agree/accept this claim that you can be forgiven for murder/genocide, and if not, then why not? Absolutely.
If you agree with the claim, do you believe this is fair? why/why not? I believe "fair" is a human, and therefore flawed, concept. It is a fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and by that I mean, it springs from the notion that humans decide on morality. That is not a Christian notion. Morality for the Christian (and the Jew, by the way) springs from the character of God. The godly counterpart to fairness is justice. According to justice, God determines what is moral and right and good, and I do believe that the belief requirement is just, because God requires it, and He is always right. God (and not some platonic ideal or human idea of fairness) is the north star of goodness.
From a neutral or Atheistic stand point, can you see why this could be very confronting? Yes, and it's supposed to be. "Just as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.'"
What I mean by this is that for someone like me (an atheist) I see this kind of thing as terribly immoral and unjust. As soon as you stop seeing yourself as an arbiter of what is moral and just, and look to God, you will be free of the pride that barred Lucifer from Heaven.
blessings
tal
"If I committed murder, or even genocide for that matter, but sincerely and graciously asked for God's forgiveness, would I get it?" Sincerely asking for Gods forgiveness means that you believe there is a God, and that you believe that He rewards those who seek Him. That is the bottom line entry-level requirement to be in right standing with God. (Hebrews 11:6)
...I then pointed out that for the sole reason that I am an atheist, I cannot be forgiven. You say that as if being an atheist is your identity rather than your belief system. You can totally be forgiven if you stop being an atheist and believe in God. Unbelief is a sin, not a part of your identity.
According to this, Atheism is a worse crime than murder or even genocide. You are right! But even if a small part of you believes or wants to believe, you can pray the prayer of Mark 9:24 - "I do believe; help my unbelief!" I once thought I had lost my ability to believe, and I prayed that prayer. It was years later, but God brought me back to belief in answer to that prayer.
Well, first of all, do you agree/accept this claim that you can be forgiven for murder/genocide, and if not, then why not? Absolutely.
If you agree with the claim, do you believe this is fair? why/why not? I believe "fair" is a human, and therefore flawed, concept. It is a fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and by that I mean, it springs from the notion that humans decide on morality. That is not a Christian notion. Morality for the Christian (and the Jew, by the way) springs from the character of God. The godly counterpart to fairness is justice. According to justice, God determines what is moral and right and good, and I do believe that the belief requirement is just, because God requires it, and He is always right. God (and not some platonic ideal or human idea of fairness) is the north star of goodness.
From a neutral or Atheistic stand point, can you see why this could be very confronting? Yes, and it's supposed to be. "Just as it is written, 'Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.'"
What I mean by this is that for someone like me (an atheist) I see this kind of thing as terribly immoral and unjust. As soon as you stop seeing yourself as an arbiter of what is moral and just, and look to God, you will be free of the pride that barred Lucifer from Heaven.
blessings
tal
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LogainTheConquer
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I have a question. Well two actually. Hypothetically:
I've worked hard for years and raised a family. I now spend much of my time volunteering at a retirement home and with the community. I like to consider myself charitable. So, I think so far that I have lived a pretty good life. I'm also an Atheist and if my beliefs don't change before I die, do you in YOUR opinion think that I deserve to burn in hell for eternity. Why or Why Not.
If a man murders a child in cold blood during his life, is not regretful of his actions throughout his life then repents with complete sincerity on his deathbed. Do you think in YOUR opinion he deserves to go to heaven for eternity? Why or Why not.
I've worked hard for years and raised a family. I now spend much of my time volunteering at a retirement home and with the community. I like to consider myself charitable. So, I think so far that I have lived a pretty good life. I'm also an Atheist and if my beliefs don't change before I die, do you in YOUR opinion think that I deserve to burn in hell for eternity. Why or Why Not.
If a man murders a child in cold blood during his life, is not regretful of his actions throughout his life then repents with complete sincerity on his deathbed. Do you think in YOUR opinion he deserves to go to heaven for eternity? Why or Why not.
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- Jun 29, 2010
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Hello Mulimulix:
There has been some very nice replies to your question here (I especially like Raze's) but maybe you are asking something different? A murderer and other sinners we assume make a conscious choice and deliberately sin. While not believing feels like something you don't have control over. In other words even if you wanted to believe you just don't.
I felt like that for years as an atheist. I was willing to believe, I in fact wanted to believe, but I just didn't. I could have said I was and pretended and fooled people and fit in, but I thought it would never fool God and actually seemed more sinful to pretend than just be honest about it. This may be your point?
If so others will probably have much to say. I can tell you that for me personally it changed when I consciously asked God to show me he is real. I laid myself open and begged him to enter my life. It was a winding journey, but to make a long story short he did. Praise God. I hope this can happen for you too.
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talitha
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Yes. Because you are not perfect, and you have chosen not to accept the free gift of forgiveness for the wrongs that you have done.
Yes. Because Jesus paid the price for his sins, and he accepted that free gift.
Holiness is not a relative thing, and it is not something which comes in degrees. It is an absolute. Just as one person cannot be more unique than another, one person cannot be holier than another. Holiness is what is required to enter God's presence for eternity. There is only one way to obtain that quality as a human being, and it is by accepting the blood of Jesus as remission for your sins.
blessings
tal
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To begin with all deserve death. No one deserves to go to Heaven as all have sinned. However, those who have asked Jesus to be their Lord and Savior and repented of all sins are granted salvation.
In regards to an atheist living a good life, that is by man's standards and not God's. No one, atheist, theist, or anyone else, can meet God's standards. To meet God's standards one would have to live a perfect life, which no one has except Jesus. A perfect life would be one in which no sin is commited, that includes lying, stealing, murder, rape, lust, pre-marital sex, divorce, cheating, and more. No one can meet this standard. That is why Jesus came down and died for our sins. He is the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus lived a sinless life and was crucified so that all have a chance to enter into the gates of Heaven. The choice is yours whether you accept this gift or not.
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Key
The Opener of Locks
To start with, "Deserve" is not the correct word in this case, as none of us Deserves Heaven.
I never liked this misconception that continually gets tossed out by people all the time using the word "Deserved".
Short of living an entirely sinless life, from birth to death, you won't ever deserve Heaven, and then, even if you DO live an entirely sinless live you will only be allowed in.
So, removing your little stint about "deserved"
Lets ask your question again:
If you lived a decent life by today's morals would you be good enough of your own accord to enter Heaven?
No. God has made this very clear that Sin will not enter heaven and a "Decent moral life by today's standards" is no where near sinless.
If someone else lives a life of sin and debauchery thought their youthful time but when they feel the fear of death they pray to God and ask forgiveness, will they be allowed to enter Heaven?
That is between them an Jesus, not my place to say.
Does that answer your questions?
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Sarcalogos Deus
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I was chatting with a (my only) Christian friend the other day about various things to do with Christianity and I asked thing in particular like "If I committed murder, or even genocide for that matter, but sincerely and graciously asked for God's forgiveness, would I get it?" And her answer was yes under the condition that you truly meant it. I then pointed out that for the sole reason that I am an atheist, I cannot be forgiven. According to this, Atheism is a worse crime than murder or even genocide.
A few questions arise from this which I want to ask you, the Christian community:
- Well, first of all, do you agree/accept this claim that you can be forgiven for murder/genocide, and if not, then why not?
- If you agree with the claim, do you believe this is fair? why/why not?
- From a neutral or Atheistic stand point, can you see why this could be very confronting? What I mean by this is that for someone like me (an atheist) I see this kind of thing as terribly immoral and unjust. It is one (of many) reasons I do not believe in Christianity
I look forward to hearing your answers
This a very simplistic explanation, but here it goes. Purgatory, that's what it's for.
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razeontherock
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Hopefully with your other answers you already get the idea that MY opinion is worthless, since I don't have the power to grant you Eternal Life. You need to get your answers from HIM.
George Carlin had some good ones for you.
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LogainTheConquer
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Originally Posted by LogainTheConquer
Originally Posted by LogainTheConquer
I have a question. Well two actually. Hypothetically:
I've worked hard for years and raised a family. I now spend much of my time volunteering at a retirement home and with the community. I like to consider myself charitable. So, I think so far that I have lived a pretty good life. I'm also an Atheist and if my beliefs don't change before I die, do you in YOUR opinion think that I deserve to burn in hell for eternity. Why or Why Not.
Hopefully with your other answers you already get the idea that MY opinion is worthless, since I don't have the power to grant you Eternal Life. You need to get your answers from HIM. Your opinion is not worthless to me, thats why I asked for your opinion.I've worked hard for years and raised a family. I now spend much of my time volunteering at a retirement home and with the community. I like to consider myself charitable. So, I think so far that I have lived a pretty good life. I'm also an Atheist and if my beliefs don't change before I die, do you in YOUR opinion think that I deserve to burn in hell for eternity. Why or Why Not.
Originally Posted by LogainTheConquer
If a man murders a child in cold blood during his life, is not regretful of his actions throughout his life then repents with complete sincerity on his deathbed. Do you think in YOUR opinion he deserves to go to heaven for eternity? Why or Why not.
George Carlin had some good ones for you. I would like your opinion.
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LogainTheConquer
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To start with, "Deserve" is not the correct word in this case, as none of us Deserves
Heaven.
I never liked this misconception that continually gets tossed out by people all the time using the word "Deserved".
Short of living an entirely sinless life, from birth to death, you won't ever deserve Heaven, and then, even if you DO live an entirely sinless live you will only be allowed
in.
So, removing your little stint about "deserved"
Um, ok.......I don't think that is [FONT="]relevant. They are my questions for my benefit, i don't think you have to reword them.
[/FONT]If you lived a decent life by today's morals would you be good enough of your own accord to enter Heaven?
No. God has made this very clear that Sin will not enter heaven and a "Decent moral life by today's standards" is no where near sinless.
If someone else lives a life of sin and debauchery thought their youthful time but when they feel the fear of death they pray to God and ask forgiveness, will they be allowed to enter Heaven?
That is between them an Jesus, not my place to say. I would like your opinion on the matter.
Heaven.
I never liked this misconception that continually gets tossed out by people all the time using the word "Deserved".
Short of living an entirely sinless life, from birth to death, you won't ever deserve Heaven, and then, even if you DO live an entirely sinless live you will only be allowed
in.
So, removing your little stint about "deserved"
Um, ok.......I don't think that is [FONT="]relevant. They are my questions for my benefit, i don't think you have to reword them.
[/FONT]If you lived a decent life by today's morals would you be good enough of your own accord to enter Heaven?
No. God has made this very clear that Sin will not enter heaven and a "Decent moral life by today's standards" is no where near sinless.
If someone else lives a life of sin and debauchery thought their youthful time but when they feel the fear of death they pray to God and ask forgiveness, will they be allowed to enter Heaven?
That is between them an Jesus, not my place to say. I would like your opinion on the matter.
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LogainTheConquer
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To begin with all deserve death. No one deserves to go to Heaven as all have sinned. However, those who have asked Jesus to be their Lord and Savior and repented of all sins are granted salvation.
In regards to an atheist living a good life, that is by man's standards and not God's. No one, atheist, theist, or anyone else, can meet God's standards. To meet God's standards one would have to live a perfect life, which no one has except Jesus. A perfect life would be one in which no sin is commited, that includes lying, stealing, murder, rape, lust, pre-marital sex, divorce, cheating, and more. No one can meet this standard. That is why Jesus came down and died for our sins. He is the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus lived a sinless life and was crucified so that all have a chance to enter into the gates of Heaven. The choice is yours whether you accept this gift or not.
I don't understand why people think belief is simply a choice.
So basically that would be a Yes for the first question and I think a Yes for the second question. Please correct me if i'm wrong on that assessment.
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LogainTheConquer
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Two person are commanded by God to do something for him. Both know that the act commanded by God would result in the harm of innocent individual.The first one does as God commands and the other, who does not want to cause harm to that individual, does not. As morals are absolute, who is morally just and who is not? Why or why not.
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aiki
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This is just a convoluted version of the Euthyphro Dilemma. Here's an excellent Q&A about this matter from a Christian perspective.
Reasonable Faith: Question 44 - Euthyphro Dilemma
and also here:
Reasonable Faith: Question 46 - The Euthyphro Dilemma Once More
Enjoy!
Selah.
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LogainTheConquer
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This is just a convoluted version of the Euthyphro Dilemma. Here's an excellent Q&A about this matter from a Christian perspective.
Reasonable Faith: Question 44 - Euthyphro Dilemma
and also here:
Reasonable Faith: Question 46 - The Euthyphro Dilemma Once More
Enjoy!
Selah.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm asking for people's personal opinions. If you would like to share, please do.
Reasonable Faith: Question 44 - Euthyphro Dilemma
and also here:
Reasonable Faith: Question 46 - The Euthyphro Dilemma Once More
Enjoy!
Selah.
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm asking for people's personal opinions. If you would like to share, please do.
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