Your thoughts please

[Secundulus]

This guy is claiming works here:


Sadly, we have people resorting to humanistic reasoning rather
than God's word to seek truth by.
Worse, they try to play down or attach lesser importance to God's word directly
as if it's a substandard method of seeking truth.

God's truth will never be found in secular humanism.

Well, you got me with that one.

I don't understand those guys' reasoning because if they were right then Christ was not only a liar but also died for no reason.

I guess you can invent anything when you believe that the Bible is just an interesting book written by a bunch of old dead guys.

I don't think they will ever be convinced of their wrongness until they start believing what the Bible says.

 

[Nadiine]

Well, you got me with that one.

I don't understand those guys' reasoning because if they were right then Christ was not only a liar but also died for no reason.

I guess you can invent anything when you believe that the Bible is just an interesting book written by a bunch of old dead guys.

I don't think they will ever be convinced of their wrongness until they start believing what the Bible says.

I notice that's the main factor to people here who preach other
gospels -
they reject the Bible as God's authoratative truth to man.

All you're left with are your own personal thoughts and feelings.
What they ignore is that it's their corrupted sin nature that is
misleading them in the first place - they seem to refuse they have
a corrupted nature & that it causes them to lack and ability to see the truth outside God removing their veil.

So..... self rules the day for them & they oppose His standards &
laws.

 

[Secundulus]

I notice that's the main factor to people here who preach other
gospels -
they reject the Bible as God's authoratative truth to man.

All you're left with are your own personal thoughts and feelings.
What they ignore is that it's their corrupted sin nature that is
misleading them in the first place - they seem to refuse they have
a corrupted nature & that it causes them to lack and ability to see the truth outside God removing their veil.

So..... self rules the day for them & they oppose His standards &
laws.

I think this whole idea can be traced back to 18th Century German theologians who came up with the idea that doctrine and dogma were irrelevant. God is only known through personal experience and the feeling that comes from that experience.

Unfortunately, their ideas have a widespread following today.

 

[Nadiine]

I think this whole idea can be traced back to 18th Century German theologians who came up with the idea that doctrine and dogma were irrelevant. God is only known through personal experience and the feeling that comes from that experience.

Unfortunately, their ideas have a widespread following today.

that's really interesting - it sounds like you're right becuz
I hear people basically saying that same thing.

experience is a big factor.
The problem I guess comes down to God's plan of using
Faith - faith is the unseen, so it goes against what's seen or
experienced directly.

hmmm.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Well, you got me with that one.

I don't understand those guys' reasoning because if they were right then Christ was not only a liar but also died for no reason.

I guess you can invent anything when you believe that the Bible is just an interesting book written by a bunch of old dead guys.

I don't think they will ever be convinced of their wrongness until they start believing what the Bible says.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

There may be lurkers that never post but take away some truth as to Gods plan of salvation from these threads. Thats my hope and the reason to continue to post against those who would blaspheme the Gospel.

Interesting...

I guess since I have the Catholic faith icon that means I'm one of those people who "blaspheme the Gospel" - since I don't believe in "faith alone", as you do.

Actually I'm very tired of debate too. I keep on going to GT and places and telling people over and over again that Catholics don't believe in salvation by works, but by grace alone. Just not faith alone. Those are not the same, in case you're wondering. We believe there are two types of works, works by the law, and works that come from grace. So we believe in salvation by grace alone, through a LIVING faith (faith+works, as it says in James!), and we cooperate with this grace through our free will.

If this makes no sense to you, or if you disagree, oki! But don't call us "blasphemers" and other names. Don't call us "non Christians". We don't do that to you. Don't say we're trying to earn our salvation after we keep on telling you we don't believe that! If you insist that "actually, you do" - you're trying to tell us what WE believe, do you know how arrogant that sounds? It also sounds arrogant to say things like "they just don't understand the gospel" etc - meaning YOUR own personal version of the Gospel. (which is, btw, different from how Christians have always believed for 1500 years. If you don't believe me, please research some Church history).

oki I'm done.. sorry this just really makes me upset. but God bless you. I hope we can all somehow find peace. I love you guys, though some things you say really get to me sometimes, LOL

 

[ReformedChapin]

Synergism..works based salvation if consistently applied.

Again, it is true that the Bible contrasts faith and works, but biblical faith is never seen as something we, in our unregenerate condition, had to autonomously (apart form the invincible power of the Holy Spirit) contribute. To the synergist, there are certain aspects of salvation that they are unable to thank God for. For example, can the synergist thank God for his faith? The only way for him to be consistent with his beliefs is to pry the following, "God I thank you for your salvation, except for my faith, the one thing I exercised on my own." Or consider another prayer, "Thank you Lord I am not like other men who do not have faith. While you extended prevenient grace to all men, some did not make use of it, BUT I DID." Such boasting, whether unconsciously or not is the result of believing that what makes you to differ from others is not God's grace but your faith. But the work of Christ redeems us unto faith, not on the condition of faith.

by J.W. Hendryx

 

[MoNiCa4316]

oki......

 

[Rhamiel]

Again, it is true that the Bible contrasts faith and works, but biblical faith is never seen as something we, in our unregenerate condition, had to autonomously (apart form the invincible power of the Holy Spirit) contribute. To the synergist, there are certain aspects of salvation that they are unable to thank God for. For example, can the synergist thank God for his faith? The only way for him to be consistent with his beliefs is to pry the following, "God I thank you for your salvation, except for my faith, the one thing I exercised on my own." Or consider another prayer, "Thank you Lord I am not like other men who do not have faith. While you extended prevenient grace to all men, some did not make use of it, BUT I DID." Such boasting, whether unconsciously or not is the result of believing that what makes you to differ from others is not God's grace but your faith. But the work of Christ redeems us unto faith, not on the condition of faith.

by J.W. Hendryx
​

so that would mean that the people who are damned are damned through no fault of there own

 

[MrJim]

so that would mean that the people who are damned are damned through no fault of there own

No, there damned because of their sin-it's just through the calvinism they have been passed over by the Holy Spirit because the blood of Christ isn't applied to them, only those that won the random Saved lottery ticket...just sayin'.

 

[Rhamiel]

can people who do not have the grace of God not sin?
it is like blaming people who are underwater for drowning
without the grace of God there can be no supernatural good act (repentance of sin ect.) so you can not really blame people for not repenting if God keeps his Grace from them, it would be like being taken to court and charged with the crime of "not flying like superman" there is nothing we can do on our own to be able to do that, so we can not really be guilty.

 

[MrJim]

can people who do not have the grace of God not sin?
it is like blaming people who are underwater for drowning
without the grace of God there can be no supernatural good act (repentance of sin ect.) so you can not really blame people for not repenting if God keeps his Grace from them, it would be like being taken to court and charged with the crime of "not flying like superman" there is nothing we can do on our own to be able to do that, so we can not really be guilty.

I've not considered that aspect...would seem to make the teaching even more heinous..

 

[MoNiCa4316]

it just makes no sense at all why God would choose some people to give grace to, and not give it to others at all. Not even give them a chance. THe Catholic Church teaches that some souls receive more graces than others: but at least everyone has the HOPE of salvation..it's offered to ALL. Even people who've never heard of Christ. If Calvinists believe in total depravity..it's like God choosing some people to be totally depraved and they don't even have the HOPE of being saved. Why would He create a person just to damn him to hell. That's not the God I know..

 

[MrJim]

There are passages in Scripture that taken at face value can support their teachings, there is more mystery to this predestination business that we can figure out so we can't just dismiss it as nonsense. It is part of a bigger whole that I don't believe we can fully understand at this point. Yet I do believe that God so loved the world, not God so loved the elect....

 

[MoNiCa4316]

some people say predestination just means that God is outside of time, and that there's a further mystery to this, that we can't understand the relation between God's sovereignty and free will...

I think that's a good explanation, I mean... it's oki not to know or understand everything... maybe the problem with Calvinism is that they try to explain too much...

I do believe that Christ died for all.
It says in the Bible, He does not desire that ANY should perish, but that all would come to repentance.

 

[MrJim]

some people say predestination just means that God is outside of time, and that there's a further mystery to this, that we can't understand the relation between God's sovereignty and free will...

I think that's a good explanation, I mean... it's oki not to know or understand everything... maybe the problem with Calvinism is that they try to explain too much...

I do believe that Christ died for all.
It says in the Bible, He does not desire that ANY should perish, but that all would come to repentance.

Amen~God doesn't always get what He desires though...I'm reminded:

Mt 23:37 –Mt 23:39 KJV
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

..and well, most of the Old Testament is filled with God's disappointments as His children fail..

 

[MoNiCa4316]

yea.. some people think that even sin glorifies God, but I don't think it does, it's completely against Him.

 

[Rhamiel]

yea.. some people think that even sin glorifies God, but I don't think it does, it's completely against Him.

are there people who say this?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

are there people who say this?

yea, I've heard it said..