Your thoughts please

[JustAsIam77]

I've almost given up posting in some areas of CF regarding grace & faith vs works based salvation.

If a brother or sister in Christ doesn't "get it", at some point one must stop trying. So I ask those of you in this forum, at what point does one back away from further debate?

Romans is so often used for this works/law vs faith debate, however, I would like to address some other scripture that pertains to this. (Reading before going to sleep the last couple nights).

Timothy 1:8-14
8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law[a] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

The Lord's Grace to Paul

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 9:8-15
8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ

11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

It seems to me to be the mistake of works/law based believers whom believe those who cling to salvation by faith alone don't feel they must keep any law.

What they can't seem to understand is we are set free from the law and therefore so grateful and eager to lead a Godly life because the bondage and chains of the old covenant are gone for us.

Opinions appreciated.

 

[ReformedChapin]

I've almost given up posting in some areas of CF regarding grace & faith vs works based salvation.

If a brother or sister in Christ doesn't "get it", at some point one must stop trying. So I ask those of you in this forum, at what point does one back away from further debate?

Romans is so often used for this works/law vs faith debate, however, I would like to address some other scripture that pertains to this. (Reading before going to sleep the last couple nights).

Timothy 1:8-14
8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that law[a] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

The Lord's Grace to Paul

12I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

14The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

Hebrews 9:8-15
8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ

11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

It seems to me to be the mistake of works/law based believers whom believe those who cling to salvation by faith alone don't feel they must keep any law.

What they can't seem to understand is we are set free from the law and therefore so grateful and eager to lead a Godly life because the bondage and chains of the old covenant are gone for us.

Opinions appreciated.

Simple...because they don't understand the Gospel. God died for them and swore to keep us in him and no one would take us away from him. Like the Jews many modern Jews still think that it's up to them to be saved while God promised he would do it all along.

 

[Jim47]

I gave up debating with people a few years ago. If someone wants help I'm all too happy to help them, but the debaters have only one purpose and that is too frustrate you.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Simple...because they don't understand the Gospel. God died for them and swore to keep us in him and no one would take us away from him. Like the Jews many modern Jews still think that it's up to them to be saved while God promised he would do it all along.

It is simple. They truly don't understand. What the Gospel says is as plain as the nose on our face.

I'll not try again to persuade heretics after several attempts showing clear Gospel truth.

 

[CruciFixed]

Hey I hope I don't sound stupid but this topic reminded me of my husband's question.

Unfortunately neither of us knew the answer.

If you are truly saved and you mess up like humans do. Lets say you curse someone out and then in the heat of it all have a heart attack and die but you were saved long before you died......
Do you still die and have eternal punishment (however and whenever that happens)
Or do you still get to have eternal life?

I am sorry for my ignorance in advanced but your good works vs faith based salvation topic brought this question to the table....

We both thought of that question because my husband and I read a news article where a guy died of a heart attack or something while having an all niter with two females while over dosing on viagra. MY husband automatically assumed eternal damnation while I said "We don't even know if he was saved before and all people are sinners and all people make mistakes so how do we know if he was saved and won't go to hell? We can't be the judge of what happens next. We can speculate but not be sure." But my husband said "I don't think that's how it works."

So we both came up with a list of scenarios of "What if xyz before you die and you were saved..."

So do you have an opinion on any of that?
I feel like a little kid playing the "What-if" game

If I should start a new topic instead of asking here let me know. Again sorry in advanced for my ignorance.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Hey I hope I don't sound stupid but this topic reminded me of my husband's question.

Unfortunately neither of us knew the answer.

If you are truly saved and you mess up like humans do. Lets say you curse someone out and then in the heat of it all have a heart attack and die but you were saved long before you died......
Do you still die and have eternal punishment (however and whenever that happens)
Or do you still get to have eternal life?

I am sorry for my ignorance in advanced but your good works vs faith based salvation topic brought this question to the table....

We both thought of that question because my husband and I read a news article where a guy died of a heart attack or something while having an all niter with two females while over dosing on viagra. MY husband automatically assumed eternal damnation while I said "We don't even know if he was saved before and all people are sinners and all people make mistakes so how do we know if he was saved and won't go to hell? We can't be the judge of what happens next. We can speculate but not be sure." But my husband said "I don't think that's how it works."

So we both came up with a list of scenarios of "What if xyz before you die and you were saved..."

So do you have an opinion on any of that?
I feel like a little kid playing the "What-if" game

If I should start a new topic instead of asking here let me know. Again sorry in advanced for my ignorance.

No new topic needed. No problem.

When we have "faith" and faith alone that Christ died in our place to make us perfect before God after this life when judgement comes, we are saved unto forever into His kingdom.

All nighter with two females & viagra or not.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Hey I hope I don't sound stupid but this topic reminded me of my husband's question.

Unfortunately neither of us knew the answer.

If you are truly saved and you mess up like humans do. Lets say you curse someone out and then in the heat of it all have a heart attack and die but you were saved long before you died......
Do you still die and have eternal punishment (however and whenever that happens)
Or do you still get to have eternal life?

I am sorry for my ignorance in advanced but your good works vs faith based salvation topic brought this question to the table....

We both thought of that question because my husband and I read a news article where a guy died of a heart attack or something while having an all niter with two females while over dosing on viagra. MY husband automatically assumed eternal damnation while I said "We don't even know if he was saved before and all people are sinners and all people make mistakes so how do we know if he was saved and won't go to hell? We can't be the judge of what happens next. We can speculate but not be sure." But my husband said "I don't think that's how it works."

So we both came up with a list of scenarios of "What if xyz before you die and you were saved..."

So do you have an opinion on any of that?
I feel like a little kid playing the "What-if" game

If I should start a new topic instead of asking here let me know. Again sorry in advanced for my ignorance.

The answer is that we don't know. God's election is what saves us. That guy if he was a genuine believer and was "backsliding" is saved. But he could have nothing at all, just another unregenerate person on his way to damnation.

 

[JustAsIam77]

The answer is that we don't know. God's election is what saves us. That guy if he was a genuine believer and was "backsliding" is saved. But he could have nothing at all, just another unregenerate person on his way to damnation.

Of course. If he was of the elect, he would have saving faith in Christ.

Compliments of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Auntie]

I gave up debating with people a few years ago. If someone wants help I'm all too happy to help them, but the debaters have only one purpose and that is too frustrate you.

Me too, I avoid debate like the plague.
Everyone has their own opinion, everyone clings to their own opinion,
and everything else is just a waste of brain cells trying to get the other guy
to come around to your opinion.

Life's too short, too much to do.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Me too, I avoid debate like the plague.
Everyone has their own opinion, everyone clings to their own opinion,
and everything else is just a waste of brain cells trying to get the other guy
to come around to your opinion.

Life's too short, too much to do.

Auntie,

I hear you. I started this thread out of frustration in another area of CF.

My safe havens are diminishing. I am tired of works/law vs faith alone debates. But if we don't stand for what the Gospel teaches us, it's a sad day.

There may be lurkers that never post but take away some truth as to Gods plan of salvation from these threads. Thats my hope and the reason to continue to post against those who would blaspheme the Gospel.

 

[Auntie]

Auntie,

I hear you. I started this thread out of frustration in another area of CF.

My safe havens are diminishing. I am tired of works/law vs faith alone debates. But if we don't stand for what the Gospel teaches us, it's a sad day.

There may be lurkers that never post but take away some truth as to Gods plan of salvation from these threads. Thats my hope and the reason to continue to post against those who would blaspheme the Gospel.

Your heart is in the right place, that's the main thing.
And I understand what you are saying.
I guess I got "debate burn-out", just can't do it anymore.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Your heart is in the right place, that's the main thing.
And I understand what you are saying.
I guess I got "debate burn-out", just can't do it anymore.

We all get the "debate burn out" syndrome.

 

[MrJim]

My thoughts ?

I'm not a calvinist anymore so automatically I'm in the other camp. See, there is one true church, and if you're not calvinist/reformed in some manner you ain't in it, cause you're believing works save you. That's how you people come across. And that's fine; it seems everybody is someone's heretic Both sides splashing scipture all over the internet defending their positions just ain't accomplishing much, so we can either sit in our camps "defending truth" or actually just do something.

So it just may be the burn-out or frustration you are feeling is the emptyness that this activity incurs. Try this..

2Th 3:13 –2Th 3:15 NKJV
But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good.
And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother..

 

[ladyt28]

JustAsIam77, I say share your beliefs, back them up to the extent that you are satisfied with and then let it go. You may not be the single source of influence that God wants in those peoples lives. Isn't there verse about planting a seed and God being the one who helps to nurture it? We all have different roles at different times to help our fellow man. You may share your beliefs with these people now and they reject it. Aometime later they hear the same thing from someone else - they may reject it again but maybe not as quickly. Then they hear it again and again (as the truth stays consistant). At some point it may actually "sink in" but it isn't going to happen until they are ready to accept it.

Sometimes the same people repeating things simply turns into an argument which only causes someone to burrow deeper into false belief. We don't always get to see the fruit of our efforts but take peace in knowing that you may very well have had more success than you've been able to see. You are part of God's vast network of believers - rejoice in every little bit He wants you to do!

 

[Secundulus]

If, as Calvin says, we are predestined to Salvation or Damnation, then wouldn't all debate be an exercise in futility by definition?

 

[CruciFixed]

My thoughts ?

I'm not a calvinist anymore so automatically I'm in the other camp. See, there is one true church, and if you're not calvinist/reformed in some manner you ain't in it, cause you're believing works save you. That's how you people come across. And that's fine; it seems everybody is someone's heretic Both sides splashing scipture all over the internet defending their positions just ain't accomplishing much, so we can either sit in our camps "defending truth" or actually just do something.

So it just may be the burn-out or frustration you are feeling is the emptyness that this activity incurs. Try this..

2Th 3:13 –2Th 3:15 NKJV
But as for you, brethren, do not grow weary in doing good.
And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and do not keep company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother..

Do you have any opinion on my question? I guess if I got the "calvinist point of view" and there are two sides to this debate. I was wondering what the other side says about my question.

If you led a Christian life and you were saved and all that stuff and then one day you slip like into temptation and then die of a heart attack before you can essentially "repent". Hell bound or heaven?

 

[CruciFixed]

The answer is that we don't know. God's election is what saves us. That guy if he was a genuine believer and was "backsliding" is saved. But he could have nothing at all, just another unregenerate person on his way to damnation.

I just wanted to make it clear I don't actually know the guy in person and certainly don't know if he was actually saved. I just made that point to my husband.

Because you can be a Christian, lead a Christian life and then have an argument that turns ugly and heated and then have a heart attack and die. Essentially there's probably no time to think of repentance...I think... I don't know.

I think almost anyone could sin right as death is coming for you. There's so many scenarios I could play out that could happen to even born again Christians.

 

[JustAsIam77]

I gave up debating with people a few years ago. If someone wants help I'm all too happy to help them, but the debaters have only one purpose and that is too frustrate you.

Words of wisdom. I'm fast approaching your POV.

 

[Jim47]

Do you have any opinion on my question? I guess if I got the "calvinist point of view" and there are two sides to this debate. I was wondering what the other side says about my question.

If you led a Christian life and you were saved and all that stuff and then one day you slip like into temptation and then die of a heart attack before you can essentially "repent". Hell bound or heaven?

What does scripture say?

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Our salvaion does not depend upon our keeping the law


Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


No One Is Righteous
Ro 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
Ro 3:10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
Ro 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
Ro 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
Ro 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
Ro 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
Ro 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Ro 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
Ro 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."
Ro 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.


Righteousness Through Faith, not through works or observing the law

Ro 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ro 3:24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Ro 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Ro 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Ro 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Ro 3:29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Ro 3:30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
Ro 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

So then we are not saved by our keeping of the law, for as scripture says, all have broken the law and are worthy of death and eternal punishment, but God paid for our sins by His offering of His Son to redeem us, not because we had done anything to deserve it, but because of His grace.

We all sin many times in a single day, and most of the time we aren't even aware of our sins. There are sins of commition, such as murder, hating someone, adultry or greed, and there are sins of neglect or ommision such as neglecting to help someone in need, forgetting to offer prayers for others, forgetting to thank God for the thousands of blessings He bestows upon un everyday, and on and on, plus there are sins of eveil thoughts which many doen't even consider, what was it that Jesus said:

Mt 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
Mt 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Mt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’
Mt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So are evil thoughts are grevious sins as well. In conclusion we are all doomed, but those who are in Jesus and trust in His salvation have a clean slate, because they trust in their Savior's forgiveness even when they haven't had time to say I'm sorry or ask for forgiveness before passing on as you said.

Again, our salvation does not depend upon our keeping the law as St Paul said in Romans above, it depends on faith in Jesus and that He paid for all sins, past, present and future

 

[JustAsIam77]

What does scripture say?

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Jn 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Our salvaion does not depend upon our keeping the law


Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


No One Is Righteous
Ro 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
Ro 3:10 As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
Ro 3:11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
Ro 3:12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
Ro 3:13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
Ro 3:14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
Ro 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Ro 3:16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
Ro 3:17 and the way of peace they do not know."
Ro 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Ro 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.


Righteousness Through Faith, not through works or observing the law

Ro 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Ro 3:24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Ro 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—
Ro 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Ro 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Ro 3:29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
Ro 3:30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
Ro 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

So then we are not saved by our keeping of the law, for as scripture says, all have broken the law and are worthy of death and eternal punishment, but God paid for our sins by His offering of His Son to redeem us, not because we had done anything to deserve it, but because of His grace.

We all sin many times in a single day, and most of the time we aren't even aware of our sins. There are sins of commition, such as murder, hating someone, adultry or greed, and there are sins of neglect or ommision such as neglecting to help someone in need, forgetting to offer prayers for others, forgetting to thank God for the thousands of blessings He bestows upon un everyday, and on and on, plus there are sins of eveil thoughts which many doen't even consider, what was it that Jesus said:

Mt 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
Mt 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Mt 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’
Mt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So are evil thoughts are grevious sins as well. In conclusion we are all doomed, but those who are in Jesus and trust in His salvation have a clean slate, because they trust in their Savior's forgiveness even when they haven't had time to say I'm sorry or ask for forgiveness before passing on as you said.

Again, our salvation does not depend upon our keeping the law as St Paul said in Romans above, it depends on faith in Jesus and that He paid for all sins, past, present and future

Well said!!! This is my understanding of the Gospel as well!

I'm so grateful Christ gave His life for us. Otherwise, we would be judged by our works and keeping old covenant law perfectly. How would that work out for us?

Answer... not good.