Your thoughts on the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17

[Aldebaran]

Jerusalem is the fig tree. As Jesus and the disciples were entering the city that week he would be rejected and crucified, Jesus cursed a fig tree beside the road because it had no figs, it was not the season. It was symbolic that Jesus knew Jerusalem would reject him as their king, and that generation would produce no fruit.

1967 Jerusalem became in the hands of the Jews again. Given that a generation is 70 years from Psalms 90, 2037 is the way the math works out at the latest. Although there is one caveat that Psalms 90 also says a generation can be 80 years, if by strength.

Ok, the fig tree is Jerusalem.
But back to the Olive, which is Israel. Could the rebirth of Israel (1948) be the time to start the 70 or 80 year generation timer, which would bring us to between 2018 and 2028?

 

[Douggg]

Ok, the fig tree is Jerusalem.
But back to the Olive, which is Israel. Could the rebirth of Israel (1948) be the time to start the 70 or 80 year generation timer, which would bring us to between 2018 and 2028?

Back before 2011, I was thinking that Israel was the fig tree, and 70 years for a generation. But when 2011 came and went with no beginning of the 7 years - I abandoned that position. (I am presuming you know what I mean by the 7 years.)

I think the point you are making is if 1948 plus the 80 years is correct, then the 7 years will have to start before the end of 2021.
It might work out that way.

There's another big factor to consider. One of the things I have since noted in recent years is the Ezekiel 39 "infallible timeline framework" for the 7 years.

What makes it infallible is that it is Jesus himself speaking in v21-29. So the 7 years follow Gog's army destruction, and Armageddon is in v.17-20.

Gog/Magog..... then the 7 years.... then Armageddon.

So before the 7 years begin, Gog/Magog has to take place.

 

[AlasBabylon]

Ok, the fig tree is Jerusalem.
But back to the Olive, which is Israel. Could the rebirth of Israel (1948) be the time to start the 70 or 80 year generation timer, which would bring us to between 2018 and 2028?

That is a FAKE "Israel" founded by antichrist Edomite revolutionaries from Russia's old Pale of Settlement area, first legally recognized by Stalin and first armed by Communist nations!

.

 

[Aldebaran]

That is a FAKE "Israel" founded by antichrist Edomite revolutionaries from Russia's old Pale of Settlement area, first legally recognized by Stalin and first armed by Communist nations!

.

Then what is the "real" Israel?

Also, is the commonly recognized Jerusalem the real one? It's located in what you say is fake Israel, and is now recognized by the USA as her capital.

 

[Douggg]

That is a FAKE "Israel" founded by antichrist Edomite revolutionaries from Russia's old Pale of Settlement area, first legally recognized by Stalin and first armed by Communist nations!

.

Israel over there right now is the real Israel.

1. the nation would be born in a single day - Isaiah 66:7-8. May 14, 1948.

2. the nation would be in disbelief in Jesus as the Lord their God, until within the final 7 years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 39:21-29

3. the nation would be in the latter days, latter years, its people coming out of the nations - when Gog/Magog takes place. Ezekiel 38:8 Ezekiel 38:16

4. the nation would be in a geographic location south of Gog, Ezekiel 39:1-2

5. Jerusalem will be in the hands of the Jews when Jesus returns, Matthew 23:37-39

 

[AlasBabylon]

Israel over there right now is the real Israel.

1. the nation would be born in a single day - Isaiah 66:7-8. May 14, 1948.

2. the nation would be in disbelief in Jesus as the Lord their God, until within the final 7 years before Jesus Returns. Ezekiel 39:21-29

3. the nation would be in the latter days, latter years, its people coming out of the nations - when Gog/Magog takes place. Ezekiel 38:8 Ezekiel 38:16

4. the nation would be in a geographic location south of Gog, Ezekiel 39:1-2

5. Jerusalem will be in the hands of the Jews when Jesus returns, Matthew 23:37-39

As in the time of Christ, antichrist Edomites [NOT Israelites] now maliciously rule and pervert Jerusalem.

That the descendants of the evil antichrist Edomites have returned to the scene of their crime is also prophecy = Luke 19:27.

Jesus said He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel [Matthew 15:24.] Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him [John 10:27-28]. But to the unbelieving antichrist Edomites, Jesus said you are NOT My sheep [NOT Israelites] [John 10:24-26.]

Unless one understands the Biblical and historic dynamics between the Israelites and Edomites that began in the OT, was a major factor in the NT and continues today, one will not understand the Bible or Bible prophecy.

.

 

[food4thought]

MYSTERY BABYLON = JERUSALEM

Let's let scripture interpret scripture:

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.


MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]

MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt taketwo onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Rev 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Pet 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Rev 17:16; Lk.21:20).

Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

That is an impressive group of references in support of your view, parousia70! I wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten this thread or my promise to give a thorough response to your view... Before I go any further, though, I want to ask an important question: Would you agree that any eschatological view must account for all the passages that speak on the end times? This question is of particular importance when dealing both with the identity of Revelation's "Babylon the Great" and also with the role that Jerusalem will play during this time period. Thanks in advance for your reply!

 

[Ligurian]

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

Mat.23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and [some] of them ye shall kill and crucify; and [some] of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias...

Rev. 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified...

Rev.18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, the fig tree is Jerusalem.
But back to the Olive, which is Israel. Could the rebirth of Israel (1948) be the time to start the 70 or 80 year generation timer, which would bring us to between 2018 and 2028?

People are still living from the previous generation. The oldest person just recently died at 116 (at least in the US). There still may be a few at 110+ alive. The verse was not to give a definite time table. It just says some of them will still be alive. 1910 is still 38 years before 1948. Almost 2 generations still around prior to the 1948 generation. Depending on one's age you go by? Just born? 10 years old? 20 years old? There are new generations every 18 years and even sooner with rampant sin still happening. The 40 years even in Moses' day, killed off 2 generations. Those who were over 40 and over 60. Many over 20 died as well.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, the fig tree is Jerusalem.
But back to the Olive, which is Israel. Could the rebirth of Israel (1948) be the time to start the 70 or 80 year generation timer, which would bring us to between 2018 and 2028?

No.
First it was 1948 and a 40 year generation, then people kept proposing longer and longer generations when the time elapsed. Eventually people switched to 1967. While becoming a nation again was a big deal, it was not part of a prophecy. Israel isn't even singled out in the prophecy:

Luk 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Luk 21:30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

Jesus wasn't talking about only the fig tree but all trees. This isn't about Israel nor 1948. He just listed a bunch of things that will happen and they are signs of his return. The trees sprouting are a sign of summer, so the events he listed are signs of his return. We haven't seen those signs yet so we are not near summer ie: his return.

Besides, when one sees the fig tree sprouting (and all the trees), then it meant Christ was returning soon but nothing happened near 1948...it's been over 70 years since and not even the great tribulation has started let alone being close to the second coming. The parable of the trees "shooting forth" being a sign of summer had nothing to do with 1948 and not even 1967 and therefore nothing to do with the country of Israel.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That is a FAKE "Israel" founded by antichrist Edomite revolutionaries from Russia's old Pale of Settlement area, first legally recognized by Stalin and first armed by Communist nations!

.

There's this.

New genetic study: More evidence for modern Ashkenazi Jews' ancient Hebrew patrimony - Scope (stanford.edu)

 

[Belteshazzar(Daniel)]

I have a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I recognize the value of understanding other views, particularly on eschatological doctrine. So I am keeping this thread open to all views allowed by the forum.

In this thread, I am asking for you to explain, in as much detail as you wish, why you believe what you believe about the identity of Babylon in Revelation 17. Please include what eschatological view you hold in your answer.

A brief synopsis of my view:

I am a futurist, and Pre-Millennial... I have begun to re-examine the question of Babylon because I am holding a Bible study on the book of Isaiah, and we are entering chapter 13. Even though I see good points to be made in favor of the other views I am familiar with, I find myself being fairly confident that the Babylon of Revelation will indeed be a city that is located in very close proximity, at the very least, to the historical city of Babylon in modern day Iraq. I believe this primarily because there are so many OT prophecies about ancient Babylon that have yet to be fully fulfilled, and also due in large part to Zechariah's vision of the woman in the basket in Zechariah 5:5-11... the fact that this woman called wickedness is being taken to the land of Shinar (ancient Iraq), where she will have a "house" (or temple) built for her there after the fall of Babylon to the Medo-Persian empire had already occurred, and it's proximity to the prophecy of the chariots in Zechariah 6:1-8 (which I strongly believe also gives us great insight as to how to interpret the four horsemen on Revelation 6), indicates to me (along with the many other prophecies of Babylon that are yet to be fulfilled) that the story of literal Babylon in the land of Shinar is yet to be completed. There is also a compelling symmetry to this view: immediately following the judgment of the flood, organized false religion, united with governmental authority and power, originated in Babylon (Genesis 10:8-10; 11:1-9), and it will end in Babylon immediately preceding the judgment of Christ's return.

Please remember we are Christians in all of our interactions here, but I am interested to hear both your own view and thoughtful Biblical critique of my view. May God bless every single one of you as you seek His face;
Michael

I have studied this topic for some time. If one looks back in scripture Psalm 137:8 and others you will find ancient Babylon referred to as daughter of Babylon. When one looks into the book of Revelation she is called the mother Rev.17:5.
The spirit of Babylon was taken in Zech 5
Then the angel that talked with me went forth, and said unto me, Lift up now thine eyes, and see what is this that goeth forth.

6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.

7 And, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead: and this is a woman that sitteth in the midst of the ephah.

8 And he said, This is wickedness. And he cast it into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.

9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came out two women, and the wind was in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork: and they lifted up the ephah between the earth and the heaven.

10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?

11 And he said unto me, To build it an house in the land of Shinar: and it shall be established, and set there upon her own base.
6 And I said, What is it? And he said, This is an ephah that goeth forth. He said moreover, This is their resemblance through all the earth.
So the daughter was destroyed but the mother was placed into the ephah to be sent to a place to build her own base.
From that base she would put forth the resemblance of herself and daughter throughout, not just Iraq, but the whole world.
The Mother has influence upon many nations and has gotten them to drink from her cup.
So to me the land of Shinar would seem to be wherever this ephah full of the spirit of Babylon was placed. Since, God had it moved it really doesn't reason out that they would have boxed it up and set it right back where it was.
My conclusions point me to the United States. We have worldly influence. We have the ideals that we can do all things without God as a nation. We sacrifice babies in the mothers' womb for the sake of selfishness. We have no problems with gay marriages and even in school teach the children it is ok to be transgender or whatever you think you want to be.
There is no other nation that buys as much as we do the reason for the merchant sailors crying about the loss of Babylon.
We are told that the destruction would be so great that man would not be able to walk where she once stood. I am pretty sure Iraq is part of the Greek Empire that will be restored briefly before Christ return.
In conclusion I believe America fits the description and has the ideals of the Mother. Freedom without God, a masonic foundation, where Washington himself, preformed the same ritual as was done at the laying of the cornerstone at the Tower of Babel for the U.S. Capital. Freemasonry believes Lucifer was the light bearer. Just look at all the monuments in our country almost all are of pagan origins.
The Mother lives upon her own base the daughter was in Iraq.