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Your Interpretation of Scripture is NOT The Inerrant Word of God

Eeplord

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Sounds good --- you and trt seem to be two of the friendlier atheists here. :)

I'm not really an atheist, I'm more of an agnostic. I was raised Catholic, but went to a really hardcore politically correct school where basically mentioning the word religion got you in trouble. *Exaggeration* I've gone on a couple of religious retreats, so I'm not closed-minded about this. The only thing I will probably never change my mind about is that macro-evolution exists, though I am holding onto the belief that a higher power created it and controls it.
 
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Hespera

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The Bible is inerrant --- our interpretations are errant --- and it's our fault if we err.

Ignorance of the Law is no excuse --- as they say.

One of the biggest ways to err --- if not the biggest way --- is to interpret It the way you guys say It should be interpreted --- allegorically.

If we interpreted the Law like you guys say we should interpret the Bible, we would be getting tickets right and left --- and it would be our fault.

.

Well only if "inerrant" means the same as "inaccurate"

I'd say one of if not the biggest mistakes would be to attempt to interpret it literally. you end up with hills clapping their hands, and strings that are 30.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 etc.
cubits long. Patent absurdities and then you have to rationalize and it just gets worse.

If you interpreted stop signs literally, you'd have to stop and just stay there.

There has to be room for common sense.
 
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Cabal

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One of the biggest ways to err --- if not the biggest way --- is to interpret It the way you guys say It should be interpreted --- allegorically.

Whereas "literally" just gives sterling results, like "very good" = "perfect" and incest being perfectly fine because God hadn't legislated against it yet, despite murder being punishable with no such proscription made.

If we interpreted the Law like you guys say we should interpret the Bible, we would be getting tickets right and left --- and it would be our fault.

So all those Mosaic laws issuing corporal, capital and financial punishments are just filler then?
 
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Cabal

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I don't understand your question.

It's not a matter of 'interpretation' --- Jesus clearly said Jerusalem will be occupied.

No, he said it would be "trodden down." To expound on that necessitates interpretation.

The Crusaders said, "We will liberate Jerusalem."

God won.

So you have God saying one thing, some people thinking He meant something else, and those people losing.

And anyone trying to march on Jerusalem today to liberate it will get a lesson in history as well.

Liberating Jerusalem from the Gentiles is a right that Jesus, Himself holds.

I just think it's funny that the "proper" interpretation arises here, now - when you're in the thick of one of your revisionist moments.

As I said, hindsight is always 20/20.
 
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Eeplord

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Now that I think about, the law in America is usually interpreted allegorically, which would be the primary reason for the courts: to decide if it was interpreted in keeping with the Constitution or not. In the case of the Bible, I guess the Church would act as the courts and God would be the Constitution. In this way the Church would decide how to interpret the Bible so that the interpretation is as close to what God intended.
 
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BananaSlug

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No, I expect not. No more than right here, or in the thread that deals in the same state issue. You have a place to show your stuff. Why be afraid if you have something? I think it is clear you don't. Why put on?

I have shown it before. The fact you decided to ignore it doesn't mean I did not show it.


There is no evidence for a same state future, or far past. None. No need to question it. The stuff you likely mean is assumption based, and can't stand on it's own in any way.

Then have a little formal debate with me. It's not hard. All you do is have to provide evidence for your position. That's all.

If you could show you had more than false bravado, and bluster, we could raise the ante. You were called on to get over to the thread that deals with your question, and show you are worthy of further debate.

If someone propositioned me to a formal debate I would jump to the occasion. The offer still stands. I've posted a lot of information on these forums about your "same state" nonsense. Let's remove the training wheels and go formal. You'll have plenty of chances to critique my evidence with your own. Your refusal to take the offer only shows me you have squat other than "you don't know, you don't know".
I'll be waiting for whenever you grow the huevos.
 
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Split Rock

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The Bible is inerrant --- our interpretations are errant --- and it's our fault if we err.
You make the claim it is inerrant, but I see nothing to back that up but your desire or opinion on the matter. It seems that the Bible is just too hard if it is not inerrant... correct?

Ignorance of the Law is no excuse --- as they say.
True, but punishment should be tempered by mitigating factors.

One of the biggest ways to err --- if not the biggest way --- is to interpret It the way you guys say It should be interpreted --- allegorically.
Wrong.

If we interpreted the Law like you guys say we should interpret the Bible, we would be getting tickets right and left --- and it would be our fault.
The law was written or re-written over the years for modern Americans. Genesis was written for Bronze-Age goat-herders to understand. That is why it has so much allegory and symbolism. People communicated important ideas via stories. It is all about context. Parts of Genesis were passed down as unwritten stories for many generations before it was written down. Thus details were not important, only the story was important, and that could change in small ways over time. According to you, every single word should be analyzed and be historically accurate. If one of the writers were here I bet he would say your interpretatiion was ridiculous.

The former --- the Creation Story.

And, by implication, the whole Bible.
The 'whole" Bible was written by different authors at different times. Again what you keep ignoring is context.

There are two major ways to interpret the Bible (four actually, but the other two are minor):

  1. allegorically
  2. literally
Some parts were allegorical and others were literal.

It was meant to be interpreted literally.
Not the allegorical parts, especially the oldest that were remembered as stories before they were even written down.

Interpreting the Bible allegorically makes the reader the sole authority for what It says, whereas interpreting It literally makes even those hostile to the Bible admit that It says what It says.
So its all about what is easiest for you, then. So much for your assertion that you are a scholar of The Bible.

The Bible contains allegory --- but this does not mean the Bible is allegory.
I don't see how that helps your case.
 
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Split Rock

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Now that I think about, the law in America is usually interpreted allegorically, which would be the primary reason for the courts: to decide if it was interpreted in keeping with the Constitution or not. In the case of the Bible, I guess the Church would act as the courts and God would be the Constitution. In this way the Church would decide how to interpret the Bible so that the interpretation is as close to what God intended.

No, the law is not allegorical, and it is certainly not treated that way by the courts. In fact, judges interpret the law in a very literal and analytical manner. If a law is not specific enough, in fact, the courts can reject it for that very reason. You are correct about the church, however. The Christian church saw itself as the one true interpretor of The Bible.
 
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Norbert L

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No where in the OP did I claim to have an inspired interpretation of scripture. In fact, I did not mention any interpetation of mine at all. I made two points. First, that not even the Bible claims that the Bible is inerrant. Second, Nobody's interpretation of scripture is inerrant (mine included). Do you agree or disagree with these two points?

First textual critism does point out at worst to some tampering, what it likes to call spurious. It also points to some 'lost in translation' and spelling blunders. It cannot point out the absense of inerrancy by an inspired revelation coming from God. Putting two and two together so to speak, like what happenned to Peter. "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven" (Mt 16:17)


Basically any errors do not make the scriptures null and void as being something that has not come from God as His revealed word. That despite certain obvious blunders made in translation and spelling plus spurioucity, the inerrancy happens not with what is written, but with what is being heard -> Interpretation.

Secondly... I'll get around to it. :)


I do agree the questions you asked are at the crux of the issue but it tends to lump all creationists in one lump sum. I too would ask such things as, 'show me in the Bible where it says the earth is 6,000 years old?' But it's the conclusion your statement reaches and wishes to convince people as being "the truth" too, which is where the :doh: came from.

In the end, creationists have no true divine legitimacy for their claims, even if one assumes that The Bible was divinely inspired.

And that is why creationism is not based on The Inerrant Word of God

Where do ideas of this or that which reach conclusions come from? It could be asked what inspires a person to write their post? People should ask, why should they believe you or me for that matter? How does a person know if someone is speaking the universal truth or just something out of their own bias or limited observation?

However if one where to assume that the Bible was divinely inspired, what does the word explain?

"Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts? For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little." For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, To whom He said, "This is the rest with which You may cause the weary to rest," And, "This is the refreshing"; Yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught."

It does claim that right and wrong ideas are being made about it contents, would explaining creation be somehow immune to the above process? Certainly not. Surprisingly the above also suggests the right ideas are being spoken but not being heard, somehow the wrong ones are being claimed. Indeed where does the Bible claim the earth is 6,000 years old?

So when one assumes the Bible is divinely inspired for today's population, where one of its internally inspired writers wrote, "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you..." (2 Pe 2:1) Are people to assume that only false teachers are left presently to interpret the scriptures and creationism for them? Or have those that have been given the inspiration, the revelation of its truth, are they around to interpret it today?

"Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." (Re 14:12)

That is of course if one were to assume that the inspired word of God is the truth and its inerrancy is still available to be communicated. Yes there are people communicating and interpreting the inspired word in truth. Problem is with soooooo many different claims, who can a person believe?
 
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AV1611VET

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I think I understand. Saying "the Bible is allegory" is like comparing to Aesop's Fables, and saying "the Bible contains allegory" would be comparing stories in the Bible, such as Jesus' parables, to Aesop's Fables. Little confused on the second part.

I am just wondering, do you believe that the creation happened in a literal 7 days, or that a few of those days could by many years long?
7 literal days --- (6 actually).
 
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AV1611VET

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...and incest being perfectly fine ...
Um --- incest is not "perfectly fine" --- in any dispensation.

Incest didn't exist until close-relation marriages were forbidden.

Incest is the crime of marrying a close relative.

No law = no crime --- no crime = no incest.
... because God hadn't legislated against it yet...
God didn't legislate against incest --- He legislated against marriages no longer being legal.

Just like weight occurs when gravity is resisted --- incest occurs when the law is resisted.

Should God legislate against incest, that means He would allow it.

Thus Cain didn't commit incest if he married his sister, but years later, his offspring, if they married their sisters, certainly did.
 
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AV1611VET

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hmm If a tree falls in the forest before the word fall is invented did it really fall?
We had a period in our past known as "Prohibition".

Prior to it, it was legal to drink --- after it was instituted --- it was illegal to drink.
 
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Soul Searcher

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We had a period in our past known as "Prohibition".

Prior to it, it was legal to drink --- after it was instituted --- it was illegal to drink.

Yet when someone did drink be it before, during or after were they not drinking in all of those cases?

Incest is a word which means to have sexual relations with a close family member. It does not matter what word is used the act is the same and if it is morally wrong and God is the source of morals and these morals are absolute then it can not be logically argued that it was ever ok without also admitting that God changed his mind on the matter. Are morals subject to Gods whim on any given day changeable at any time or are they really absolute?

Sounds more like it comes from the mind of man rather than an all knowing God. Just like your example is a law of man.
 
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Split Rock

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First textual critism does point out at worst to some tampering, what it likes to call spurious. It also points to some 'lost in translation' and spelling blunders. It cannot point out the absense of inerrancy by an inspired revelation coming from God. Putting two and two together so to speak, like what happenned to Peter. "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven" (Mt 16:17)

Basically any errors do not make the scriptures null and void as being something that has not come from God as His revealed word. That despite certain obvious blunders made in translation and spelling plus spurioucity, the inerrancy happens not with what is written, but with what is being heard -> Interpretation.
I am not suggesting that scripture is null and void... rather that it is (at best) an imperfect reflection of God's Word. I do not agree with the last sentence, however... interpretation by fallible people is never inerrant.


I do agree the questions you asked are at the crux of the issue but it tends to lump all creationists in one lump sum. I too would ask such things as, 'show me in the Bible where it says the earth is 6,000 years old?' But it's the conclusion your statement reaches and wishes to convince people as being "the truth" too, which is where the :doh: came from.
I am generalizing, but this is based on my interactions with creationists and their basic arguments. In the end, for most, it comes down to: "my argument is based on the Word of God and therefore trumps science, because sciecne can be wrong but The Word of God cannot." This assumes The Bible is the inerrant Word of God and that their interpretation is also inerrant. The only truth I am trying to explain, is that none of us are inerrant, including the authors of The Bible. Therefore, none of us can claim inerrancy whether it is based on The Bible or otherwise.


Where do ideas of this or that which reach conclusions come from? It could be asked what inspires a person to write their post? People should ask, why should they believe you or me for that matter? How does a person know if someone is speaking the universal truth or just something out of their own bias or limited observation?
Agreed.

However if one where to assume that the Bible was divinely inspired, what does the word explain?
Let us assume The Bible is divinely inspired for this thread. It is at least a claim that the writers of the Bible clearly made.

It does claim that right and wrong ideas are being made about it contents, would explaining creation be somehow immune to the above process? Certainly not. Surprisingly the above also suggests the right ideas are being spoken but not being heard, somehow the wrong ones are being claimed. Indeed where does the Bible claim the earth is 6,000 years old?
I would argue that we do not know if the "right ideas" are being spoken at all.

So when one assumes the Bible is divinely inspired for today's population, where one of its internally inspired writers wrote, "But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you..." (2 Pe 2:1) Are people to assume that only false teachers are left presently to interpret the scriptures and creationism for them? Or have those that have been given the inspiration, the revelation of its truth, are they around to interpret it today?
Good question.

That is of course if one were to assume that the inspired word of God is the truth and its inerrancy is still available to be communicated. Yes there are people communicating and interpreting the inspired word in truth. Problem is with soooooo many different claims, who can a person believe?
Indeed how. Once again, it is very possible that no one is interpeting the inspired word in truth... how can we tell? Even if we assume someone must be interpreting scripture correctly on a given subject, how can we determine who? This is in essence, my point.
 
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dad

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I have shown it before. The fact you decided to ignore it doesn't mean I did not show it.
I see. So you have 'shown it' Excellent. I am kinda busy reading on topic posts, but please link us to where you strutted your stuff. What a scream.
 
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Cabal

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Um --- incest is not "perfectly fine" --- in any dispensation.

Incest didn't exist until close-relation marriages were forbidden.

Incest is the crime of marrying a close relative.

No law = no crime --- no crime = no incest.

And we come neatly back to Euthyphro's dilemma. Are these things immoral because God legislated against them, or did God legislate against them because they are immoral?

I say the latter. You say the former, which is utterly sickening IMO, but hey, do what you have to to make your interpretations fit.

God didn't legislate against incest --- He legislated against marriages no longer being legal.

Just like weight occurs when gravity is resisted --- incest occurs when the law is resisted.

Should God legislate against incest, that means He would allow it.

Thus Cain didn't commit incest if he married his sister, but years later, his offspring, if they married their sisters, certainly did.

Not the point I was making, but nevermind.
 
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AV1611VET

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Incest is a word which means to have sexual relations with a close family member.
No, incest is not a word which means to have sexual relations with a close family member --- incest is the crime of having sexual relations with a close family member.

Incest --- West's Encyclopedia of American Law:

  1. Sexual relations between persons who are so closely related that their marriage is illegal or forbidden by custom.
  2. The statutory crime of sexual relations with such a near relative.
Incest --- Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:
Sexual relations between persons who, because of the nature of their kinship ties, are prohibited by law or custom from intermarrying.
Incest --- Columbia Encyclopedia:
Sexual relations between persons to whom marriage is prohibited by custom or law because of their close kinship.
Incest --- Law Encyclopedia:
The crime of sexual relations or marriage taking place between a male and female who are so closely linked by blood or affinity that such activity is prohibited by law.
 
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