Your beliefs on openness and purpose of communion

PloverWing · Nov 10, 2017

In my tradition, Communion is seen as a means of grace -- a way in which God's grace and presence come to us. I don't want to prevent anyone from receiving that grace, if they wish to receive it, even if they are confused or doubtful about God. God's grace comes to us in our lives because God chooses to give it, not because we are worthy. So I am happy when the priest issues an invitation that the Table is open to all who wish to receive.

FireDragon76 · Nov 10, 2017

From a Lutheran perspective, a closed communion does not make sense. The sacraments are God's work done on behalf of those not only undeserving, but also incapable, of saving themselves. There is no distinction between me and the unbeliever, except the fact I have the assurance of being forgiven and justified. The concern about propriety is just the Old Adam talking who does not appreciate the free gift of a gracious God.

Halbhh · Nov 10, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
Specifically, do you think atheists should participate in communion if they happen to be attending a church? Remember that nobody's brain is 100% belief or 100% disbelief. If a person like myself is baptized but now is 99% disbelief, I wonder what is appropriate? Personally, I think that an atheist should participate, because denying people access to Jesus contradicts the behavior of Jesus in the gospel. Jesus repeatedly went to the people that society was rejecting.

Many disbelievers that attend churches, especially old large churches, do take communion, even when that old large church thinks they should not.

What % of people in churches believe that Christ rose from the dead? I'm sure it varies, but a bet few congregations over 30 members have a rate above 95%. I'm guessing when the congregation is hundreds, families, that % is more likely well down there like perhaps 50-70%.

On a different subject, in that same old denomination which has that normal outcome of non-believers taking communion, they also have closed communion meaning that non-denomination members are told not to take communion!

This was extremely offending to me.

I needed some time in order not to overreact to it. I see it as simply their profound error.

It's...too close to simply saying anyone not in their church is a liar, in effect -- that visitors could not be honest enough to only take communion if they see the elements as the church does (but instead would pretend and take communion as if they did when they did not, lying about it). Even though that's not their point, it's a practical outcome of their policy. It's the outcome in effect. It's so offensive. It's like that deep error Peter made to refuse to eat with the gentile converts.

JCFantasy23 · Nov 10, 2017

My denomination practices open communion for all believers, but no - I don't see a point that an Atheist should take part in communion. I'd find it strange that they would want to.

cloudyday2 · Nov 10, 2017

PloverWing said:
In my tradition, Communion is seen as a means of grace -- a way in which God's grace and presence come to us. I don't want to prevent anyone from receiving that grace, if they wish to receive it, even if they are confused or doubtful about God. God's grace comes to us in our lives because God chooses to give it, not because we are worthy. So I am happy when the priest issues an invitation that the Table is open to all who wish to receive.

Is that typical of Episcopal congregations in the USA? I grew up as an Episcopalian, so I have wondered about attending a church of that type. However, I don't know what I should do regarding communion at an Episcopal church. I was baptized and confirmed in that denomination, but now I don't believe intellectually.

A few years ago I had converted to Eastern Orthodox, and there is more emphasis on "being prepared" to participate in communion. If I decided to participate I wondered if I had done badly, and if I decided not to participate I wondered if I had done badly. I finally decided to participate every week regardless of whether I "felt prepared".

It seems to me that excluding myself from participation is like excluding myself from Jesus. Either there is something real about communion or there isn't. From a personal standpoint (ignoring the offense it might cause other parishioners) participating seems the correct course to me. The idea that Jesus would cause a person to get sick as a punishment for participation in communion due to their lack of belief/faith/preparation/piety doesn't seem realistic to me.

PloverWing · Nov 10, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
Is that typical of Episcopal congregations in the USA? I grew up as an Episcopalian, so I have wondered about attending a church of that type. However, I don't know what I should do regarding communion at an Episcopal church. I was baptized and confirmed in that denomination, but now I don't believe intellectually.

This varies by priest (or, possibly, by bishop). I've heard some priests give an invitation to the Table to "all baptized Christians", and other priests give a broader invitation that welcomes everyone who wishes to receive. My previous parish priest used to say "This is the Lord's Table, not the Episcopal Church's, and everyone is welcome at his Feast", which I thought was wonderful.

If you're a visitor, respect the customs of the particular parish you're visiting. But if the priest opens the invitation to everyone, then consider yourself welcome at the Table.

Lukaris · Nov 10, 2017

The Lord does not punish us for receiving communion if we are improperly prepared. We are preparing for our salvation and as St. Paul preaches that corruption cannot inherit incorruption ( 1 Corinthians 15:50 ). This is not an easy matter for anyone but is a necessity.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 10, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
A few years ago I had converted to Eastern Orthodox, and there is more emphasis on "being prepared" to participate in communion. If I decided to participate I wondered if I had done badly, and if I decided not to participate I wondered if I had done badly. I finally decided to participate every week regardless of whether I "felt prepared".

It seems to me that excluding myself from participation is like excluding myself from Jesus. Either there is something real about communion or there isn't. From a personal standpoint (ignoring the offense it might cause other parishioners) participating seems the correct course to me. The idea that Jesus would cause a person to get sick as a punishment for participation in communion due to their lack of belief/faith/preparation/piety doesn't seem realistic to me.

It is not such a legalistic thing. Yes, we prepare, but there are situations where we can't do so, and we probably never do so perfectly.

The only situation where I would be concerned for myself is if I simply decided on my own that preparation didn't apply to me, that I was my own authority, that I could donwhat I wanted. Not out of weakness, or simple mistake or circumstance, but out of arrogance.

It's not something easy to convey in a post or few (not for me anyway). A good priest would help explain, given the chance.

We as people can be mixed up. We might be too careless, out of arrogance. Or we might be too strict, out of scrupulosity. Both should be dealt with to bring a balanced understanding, but the words spoken to each person would be different.

I am sorry to hear you had trouble because of it.

cloudyday2 · Nov 10, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
I am sorry to hear you had trouble because of it.

No problemo.

seeking.IAM · Nov 10, 2017

PloverWing said:
This varies by priest (or, possibly, by bishop). I've heard some priests give an invitation to the Table to "all baptized Christians", and other priests give a broader invitation that welcomes everyone who wishes to receive. My previous parish priest used to say "This is the Lord's Table, not the Episcopal Church's, and everyone is welcome at his Feast", which I thought was wonderful.

If you're a visitor, respect the customs of the particular parish you're visiting. But if the priest opens the invitation to everyone, then consider yourself welcome at the Table.

The official position of The Episcopal Church is that all baptized Christians are welcome to participate in the Eucharist. However some priests are more inclusive than that. Our prior priest gave the invitation, "If you seek Christ you are welcome at this table for these are the gifts of God for the people of God." Our current priest is more restrictive, serving only baptized Christians at the table.

cloudyday2 · Nov 11, 2017

seeking.IAM said:
The official position of The Episcopal Church is that all baptized Christians are welcome to participate in the Eucharist. However some priests are more inclusive than that. Our prior priest gave the invitation, "If you seek Christ you are welcome at this table for these are the gifts of God for the people of God." Our current priest is more restrictive, serving only baptized Christians at the table.

When I was growing up in the Episcopal Church, I did not participate in communion until I was about 12 and had been confirmed. I wonder if that is still how it works for children?

Also, I wonder if the Episcopal Church has always allowed non-Episcopalians to participate in communion? As I recall, only certain denominations were allowed such as the Lutherans who shared similar beliefs about a mystical presence of Christ in the bread and wine.

Serving Zion · Nov 11, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
The idea that Jesus would cause a person to get sick as a punishment for participation in communion due to their lack of belief/faith/preparation/piety doesn't seem realistic to me.

John 10:10 shows that it isn't Jesus who causes the consequences, nor does He desire judgement to come upon us. It also isn't for the purpose of deterring those who are being drawn to Him as is your case, but rather it is a warning to those who call themselves Christian and yet they are not living according to the truth (1 John 1:5-6), because they are those who misrepresent Him.

It is important to make this distinction too, that Jesus does not cause nor desire for us to fall sick through unworthy participation, but it is our own dishonesty - an ultimate preference to disobey our conscience - that subjects us to the curse (Galatians 1:8, John 5:24). You may see how this works in John 15:5-6, and you may see the purpose for it in Matthew 7:15, John 13:35, Luke 6:44 and Revelation 3:16.

PloverWing · Nov 11, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
When I was growing up in the Episcopal Church, I did not participate in communion until I was about 12 and had been confirmed. I wonder if that is still how it works for children?

This has changed. Baptism is now seen as the full entrance rite into the church, and small children are now welcome to receive communion as soon as they are able to physically handle bread and wine. This comes out of a combination of 1) seeing baptism as a centrally important sacrament and 2) seeing grace in the way that FireDragon76 and I have described, that God's grace comes to us freely, on God's initiative, even when (like small children) we do not perceive it or understand it.

Also, I wonder if the Episcopal Church has always allowed non-Episcopalians to participate in communion? As I recall, only certain denominations were allowed such as the Lutherans who shared similar beliefs about a mystical presence of Christ in the bread and wine.

I've only been Episcopalian since 1985, and non-Episcopalians were welcome at communion at that point. If there are some cradle Episcopalians here, they might have longer memories.

seeking.IAM · Nov 11, 2017

I'm not cradle so I can't speak to what happened before 2010.

FireDragon76 · Nov 11, 2017

In many Episcopal churches communion of children is now commonplace. It was at the cathedral I used to attend.

The Lutheran church I go to is more conservative and elderly so they only commune older children, usually around age 7-8, similar to Roman Catholics. However, some ELCA churches now commune children, it just depends on the parish.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 11, 2017

Serving Zion said:
John 10:10 shows that it isn't Jesus who causes the consequences, nor does He desire judgement to come upon us. It also isn't for the purpose of deterring those who are being drawn to Him as is your case, but rather it is a warning to those who call themselves Christian and yet they are not living according to the truth (1 John 1:5-6), because they are those who misrepresent Him.

It is important to make this distinction too, that Jesus does not cause nor desire for us to fall sick through unworthy participation, but it is our own dishonesty - an ultimate preference to disobey our conscience - that subjects us to the curse (Galatians 1:8, John 5:24). You may see how this works in John 15:5-6, and you may see the purpose for it in Matthew 7:15, John 13:35, Luke 6:44 and Revelation 3:16.

Very good!

I rarely see it acknowledged or mentioned, and I think many might not realize as a result.

Evil things coming upon us "as a result of sin" does not mean that God vindictively punishes us because we sin. But sin itself has consequences, and has since the time mankind's sin brought death as a curse.

We don't believe in "karma" but in a sense it's like that. You reap what you sow. When we sow more evil into the world, or into ourselves, it flourishes, grows, and comes back to us in various ways.

cloudyday2 · Nov 11, 2017

Would anybody be interested in discussing communion in the world religion subforum where the rules aren't so restrictive? In this subforum, I can't express my own opinions after asking the question in the opening post. Any follow-up posts I make are supposed to be requests for clarification of the answers I received.

~Anastasia~ · Nov 11, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
Would anybody be interested in discussing communion in the world religion subforum where the rules aren't so restrictive? In this subforum, I can't express my own opinions after asking the question in the opening post. Any follow-up posts I make are supposed to be requests for clarification of the answers I received.

I would be willing to try, within time constraints. I may not be as available the next few days, especially on Sunday.

If you're interested in replying to an Orthodox point of view. I'm not sure if that's what you want.

If you do, please post a link here - otherwise I'd likely miss it.

cloudyday2 · Nov 11, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
If you do, please post a link here - otherwise I'd likely miss it.

From Last Supper to Communion - it is valid?

Sketcher · Nov 11, 2017

My church practices open communion, but we teach that only believers who can take it worthily should take it. Everyone else should let it pass.

Sacraments aren't there to be "tried out." They are connected to a very serious commitment that the Christian makes to put faith in Christ and follow him.

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