Young Israeli man facing prison

[intojoy]

Yep sad dam Hussien climbing out of his rat hole lol - priceless. You can never make deals with the devil eventually he double crosses you like he did that idiot and his sons. Loved it

 

[Zeek]

Yes, Arafat was corrupt. As for your assertion that his long term goal was a
'phased plan' to obtain the whole of Israel a bit of a time, I challenge you to present evidence of this. It should come from Arab, not Israeli sources.

Elder of Ziyon: Hamas leader spells out the phased plan to destroy Israel

I thought this might suffice, especially as it links nicely with Hamas' aims and goals....but just in case I also include this:

Arafat Invokes 1974 Phased Plan Calling for Israel's Destruction

The sources are not Arab, but I think most people would say what has been presented is accurate...trying to find this from an Arab source would probably be like looking for rocking horse droppings.

Just for good measure and for all to glance at there is this:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The PLO Phased Plan in brief: [/FONT]

1. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Through the "armed struggle" (i.e., terrorism), to establish an "independent combatant national authority" over any territory that is "liberated" from Israeli rule. (Article 2) [/FONT]
2. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To continue the struggle against Israel, using the territory of the national authority as a base of operations. (Article 4) [/FONT]
3. [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To provoke an all-out war in which Israel's Arab neighbors destroy it entirely ("liberate all Palestinian territory"). (Article 8)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Source.... Scottish Friends of Israel[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

 

[mandelduke]

Perhaps you are unaware of the fact that Germans were ethnically cleansed from Poland and Czechoslovakia after WWII. Since the presence of Germans had been used to justify the invasion of those countries it was thought best to remove them. Was it just? Probably not to the families involved.



No, it does not. We are talking about a *people* being removed from the land in which they live. People exist independent of states.



Apparently you are choosing to ignore my previous statements that some injustices cannot be undone and that this applies to Israel as well as America. I also said healing begins when we acknowledge the injustice something you are unwilling to do in the case of Israel. But for the record I do not believe that Europeans had a right to take away the land of Native Americans just because they didn't have a nation-state. Many Native Americans have received compensation for what was stolen from them. The same cannot be said of the Palestinian people.

I will address your verses from the Gospels and the Qur'an in another post.

American Holocaust:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qra6pcn4AOE

1989 - American Indian Activist Russell Means testifies at Senate Hearing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVANRroxuOo&list=TLLYi7ctpVhf0
Thoughts on Choctaw Removal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yHq-cH0WUA


The Trail of Tears: They Knew It Was Wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qalhDKLrWEQ

American Indian living in desperate poverty - RT 100315
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7VuwOJ98f0

 

[mandelduke]

The Canadian Holocaust: Hidden No Longer - Kevin Annett

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vNW9meqny4
If you watch these videos you will be ready for the truth, then you watch 500 Nations and tell me what compensation can possibly be given.

 

[smaneck]

I think you misunderstand....I am saying those 5 million plus that are refugees will not be granted right of return...those Arabs within Judea and Samaria would have the same rights as any citizen of Israel

.

As I said, Judea coincides with the Gaza Stripe wherein live 1.7 million Palestinians. Samaria includes the West Bank wherein live 2.6 million Palestinians. That comes to nearly four and a half million. I venture to guess that those Palestinians who have successfully made lives elsewhere will not likely want to return anyhow.

Large swathes of it were deserts and swamps until the Jewish people drained the swamps, got rid of the malaria and other prevalent diseases and made the desert blossom, and the Bedouin only lately settled to become herders and shepherds...

No, the Bedouin were there all along. In fact that was one of the reasons it was so sparsely populated. The Bedouin presence discouraged the settlement of anyone else.

Not sure of your point...fact is what is now Jordan was also part of what was meant for the Jewish people.

Meant by whom? Certainly not the people who lived there!

That is pure fantasy...you make it sound as if the scattered communities that were often in flux owned the land...

Once again, landed property in the Middle East (as in most of the non-Western world) was always secondary to land possession. The former traditionally gave one the right to raise rents and taxes. The latter gave one the right to use the land. The Palestinian people possessed this land whether they 'owned it' in the Western sense or not.

but anyway the Mandate that was to oversee the setting up of a Jewish State made it clear that this was not to be at the expense of those who were already settled in various parts of Palestine.

If that was the purpose of the Mandate then France would not have been given territory under the Mandate as well. The purpose of the Mandate was simply a new excuse to continue Western imperialism, something which had become harder to justify after President Wilson's 14 Points.

Don't know where you get this 'imperialism stuff' from...the Jews had strong ties to the land, this was recognized and should have resulted in them having far more than they have now...

I see. So sentimental attachment to a land that ones ancestors left two thousand years ago gives one the right to disinherit those who have lived there for hundreds of years. And yes, I realize there were some Jews that had been living in Palestine all along. No one was interested in making them leave. It was the immigration of European Jewry that was problematic and what makes it imperialistic.

Totally untrue...the Palestinian Arabs are a recent invention...they are basically Arabs from various nearby Arab lands.

Apparently you are unaware of all the DNA studies that have been done in this area. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

But don't let studies like this destroy your illusion that the Palestinians are not a people.

They are descendants of Ishmael (Gen 25:12)and not of Jacob who had his name changed to Israel.

Wrong. Aside from the Bedouin who are more closely related to the Arabs of Arab Peninsula, Palestinians share basically the same DNA as Jews. Their ancestors originally spoke Aramaic and adopted Arabic as their language after the Arab invasion. The Levant Dialect spoken in Palestine still reflects its Aramaic origin.

Other Arabs may be descendants of Ishmael, but the Palestinians are more likely the descendants of the Samaritans. The entire Palestinian population of Nablus traces their ancestry back to the Samaritans. Most of the other Palestinians had already been Christianized by the time of the Arab Invasions, but their ancestors were likely Samaritans at some point as well.

The land G-d gave to Israel was called Canaan at the time and later changed to Israel and includes the whole of what they now possess again plus Judea and Samaria and more besides.

Once again, the Jews are not the Israel of the Bible. At most they are the tribe of Judea whose area coincided with the Gaza Strip.

Because she was an unashamed anti-Zionist bigot.

Sorry, but anti-Zionism is not bigotry. It is opposition to certain form of religiously defined nationalism and the territorial claims that went with it. Helen Thomas was Arab Christian and until Hamas came to the forefront thanks to Mossad funding, it was Arab Christians who most resented the establishment of the State of Israel. This is because Christian Arabs have always been at the forefront of Arab Nationalism, especially those Lebanon and Thomas' family was from Lebanon.

Mostly they just want the whole of the Middle-East to be Moslem...

Somehow I don't think those Arab bishops toasting to Saddam Hussein were interested in the whole Middle East becoming Muslim.

 

[smaneck]

If you watch these videos you will be ready for the truth, then you watch 500 Nations and tell me what compensation can possibly be given.

Yes, the real question is what do we do now that the Buffalo's gone?
There are some injustice that can't be undone, not for the Native Americans, not for the Palestinians. But we still need to name the injustice and decide where we go from here. Blaming the victim as is happening in the case of the Palestinian people gets us nowhere. But you remind me of a song from my childhood:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTqV1pnQoos

 

[Zoness]

Mostly they just want the whole of the Middle-East to be Moslem...it is very much a religious dispute and they are duty bound to return the land of Israel to Moslem jurisdiction...they may make sounds about Western Imperialism, but this is the sort of smoke-screen so favoured by the BDS, PSC and other pro-Pal MGO's and many Westerners get suckered in by them.

I think the Muslims do want the land for their ends, but so does America. Think about it, a buffer state we can use to carry out our political demands and pretend it isn't us? That seems like an incredible offer!

As long as we convince Israel to love us! Though in reality, they seem to be writing the show and we just give them our tax dollars. If its imperialism, the proxy is controlling the puppet master. The only people who win are the most holy and glorious defense contractors.

 

[Zeek]

.
No, the Bedouin were there all along. In fact that was one of the reasons it was so sparsely populated. The Bedouin presence discouraged the settlement of anyone else.

Which was the very point I was making....they did not start to settle until the beginning of the 20th century...now 170,000 are within Israel, supposedly as equal citizens but Israel has not dealt very fairly with some of them and needs to change its attitude.

Once again, landed property in the Middle East (as in most of the non-Western world) was always secondary to land possession. The former traditionally gave one the right to raise rents and taxes. The latter gave one the right to use the land. The Palestinian people possessed this land whether they 'owned it' in the Western sense or not.

They 'possessed' small areas within it...they did not own the land per se.

If that was the purpose of the Mandate then France would not have been given territory under the Mandate as well. The purpose of the Mandate was simply a new excuse to continue Western imperialism, something which had become harder to justify after President Wilson's 14 Points.

Central to the Bristish role was the establishment of a country for the Jewish people and they were obligated to help this along in anyway they could...unfortunately the British were duplicitous and saw the gleam of black gold that drew their attention away from their responsibility and commitment.

I see. So sentimental attachment to a land that ones ancestors left two thousand years ago gives one the right to disinherit those who have lived there for hundreds of years. And yes, I realize there were some Jews that had been living in Palestine all along. No one was interested in making them leave. It was the immigration of European Jewry that was problematic and what makes it imperialistic.

I don't think you do see. The plight of Jews throughout Europe that culminated in their preventable Holocaust was part of the reason they sought a homeland...not in Uganda, not in Argentina but in the place that their whole history was wrapped up in and where some of them had continuously lived since biblical times.

This land was being divided amongst the Arabs and the ruling nations that defeated the Turks made sure the lions share went to the Arabs, but also understood the necessity of the Jews to have their own land as well...

Apparently you are unaware of all the DNA studies that have been done in this area. http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

But don't let studies like this destroy your illusion that the Palestinians are not a people.

I will have a look at the studies later....fact is that amongst different communities that were in Palestine, there are bound to be those that originated from the Samaritans, the Jews, the Arabs and more besides...