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Young Earth Creationist dynamics.

Zaius137

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The article you cited did not state that they dated the ice to 2.5 million years. It said they hoped to be able to. I then went to a scientific search engine and searched for all the papers published by Andrei Kurbatov. He has done a lot of research in paleoclimatology, much of it in Antarctica, Canada and Greenland. Nothing in any of his published research is there anything about having dated any ice more than 850,000 years.

Your article: "Andrei Kurbatov and his colleagues believe that they can retrieve a nearly limitless supply of ice for climate research that dates back at least 2.5 million years -- located right at the surface and retrievable in a single season."

Here is a list of published research by Kurbatov from 2009 to present. Your article was dated 2009.

Kraus and Kurbatov (2010) Chemical fingerprint of bulk tephra from Late Pleistocene / Holocene volcanoes in the northern Antarctic Peninsula area
ingentaconnect Discovery of a nanodiamond-rich layer in the Greenland ice sheet
http://www.library.umaine.edu/theses/pdf/KorotkikhE2009.pdf

and the paper your article is talking about:
Interpreting ancient ice in a shallow ice core from the South Yamato (Antarctica) blue ice area using flow modeling and compositional matching to deep ice cores | Mendeley

Facts are facts. What you have been claiming is not supported in any of your citations nor any I have searched for.<staff edit> This is not a case where we have conflicting ideas, it's a case where you are making claims and giving citations that you say support your claims when in fact they do not.

Thanks again for the links&#8230; In one of the articles I found that there was some cross dating speculation that has to have a wrong date attached.

Detailed comparison of high-resolution DEP records from this core and the Dome Fuji core support the 5561 kyr BP fit best.

Interpreting ancient ice in a shallow ice core from the South Yamato (Antarctica) blue ice area using flow modeling and compositional matching to deep ice cores | Mendeley

That is 5,561 kyr&#8230; is that a misprint?

I suppose that (DEP) refers to Department of Environmental protection and he would be cross matching events to date this core? Is this a claim for a match 5 million years ago?


I do not believe that the claims of the WEB article hold any water. Actually I used this article focusing on Kurbatov&#8217;s work as a kind of foil for your claim that there is a consensus in the ice core dates.

Facts are facts.
Yes&#8230;


What you have been claiming is not supported in any of your citations nor any I have searched for.

Was that a claim of 2.5 million year old ice? Or that there are consensus problems in the paradigm?


<staff edit>

This is not a case where we have conflicting ideas, it's a case where you are making claims and giving citations that you say support your claims when in fact they do not.

Not really conflicting ideas (they all say that the ice is old). But there is a matter of date concensus.
 
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Zaius137

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<staff edit>

Let's start simple - how would you know that a 6,000 year old earth and literal interpretation of genesis is wrong?
<staff edit>

Let's start simple &#8211; I know that a 6,000 year old earth and literal interpretation of genesis is right.
 
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Zaius137

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<staff edit>

My kind of proof is used in the courts and justice system today. It is accepted over all circumstances and speculation. It is the testimony of eyewitnesses; in the case of the Bible it is the Patriarchs and Prophets, those actually witnessed the Flood and passed the account in verbal and written form. The Bible&#8217;s history is real and verifiable; when it says a city existed or person&#8217;s they have been found in archeology.

That the &#8220;more sure&#8221; methodology.
 
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Valkhorn

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My kind of proof is used in the courts and justice system today. It is accepted over all circumstances and speculation. It is the testimony of eyewitnesses; in the case of the Bible it is the Patriarchs and Prophets, those actually witnessed the Flood and passed the account in verbal and written form. The Bible&#8217;s history is real and verifiable; when it says a city existed or person&#8217;s they have been found in archeology.

That the &#8220;more sure&#8221; methodology.

First of all, eye witness testimony isn't that accurate, and often isn't the sole factor in what convicts someone.

FRONTLINE: How can eyewitness indentification go wrong?

A photograph of a person committing a crime, a fingerprint, DNA evidence - those are the things that don't lie. People do lie whether they intend to or not. They often don't remember things accurately nor do they always remember every detail. They can often also make up things that weren't there to begin with.

As far as the Bible - I'd hate to be the bearer of truth, but the new testament was written a generation or two after the supposed events actually happened. There were a lot of copies made, and mistakes made by copy after copy. (There is a recent thread in this forum about that.)

Plus, men wrote it - and men often lie or don't tell the truth. By your logic, Harry Potter is just as accurate as the Bible because both books have eye witnesses and describe places that never existed when it was written. Nazareth, for example, wasn't settled until AFTER the time of Josephus (Josephus never mentioned it). Funny that.

As far as 'witnesses' to the 'global flood' - I'd hate to tell you this but if you witnessed a local flood it might seem 'global' to you - but it doesn't mean it is. It just means it's flooding as far as you can see - which is only a few miles at ground level, if that.

Men lie. Books lie. That's why we go to evidence that doesn't lie. That's why we go to evidence OUTSIDE of the bible.

What happens when we do? We uncover the truth - and that is a literal interpretation of genesis cannot be true. I'm still waiting for ANY creationist (besides you) to explain how all of these very large meteor impacts could have happened over a few thousand years, or how the white cliffs of Dover could have formed in such a time (and survived a flood), or how this magic flood could have possibly formed the layers of sedimentation that we find AND magically sort the fossils AND magically give lower layers different ages AND sort fossils that point to evolutionary descent over time, or how the massive ice caps over Greenland and Antarctica could have formed in a few thousand years - or where in the world is all this water when we don't have enough water to flood the world globally?

<staff edit>
 
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cupid dave

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Let's start simple – I know that a 6,000 year old earth and literal interpretation of genesis is right.


How could it be right?

Earth time did not begin ticking until God made the Solar Clock on the 4th "day."




14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


(So the previous references to "days" apparently were NOT 24 hour deals?)
 
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Zaius137

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First of all, eye witness testimony isn't that accurate, and often isn't the sole factor in what convicts someone.

FRONTLINE: How can eyewitness indentification go wrong?

A photograph of a person committing a crime, a fingerprint, DNA evidence - those are the things that don't lie. People do lie whether they intend to or not. They often don't remember things accurately nor do they always remember every detail. They can often also make up things that weren't there to begin with.

As far as the Bible - I'd hate to be the bearer of truth, but the new testament was written a generation or two after the supposed events actually happened. There were a lot of copies made, and mistakes made by copy after copy. (There is a recent thread in this forum about that.)

Plus, men wrote it - and men often lie or don't tell the truth. By your logic, Harry Potter is just as accurate as the Bible because both books have eye witnesses and describe places that never existed when it was written. Nazareth, for example, wasn't settled until AFTER the time of Josephus (Josephus never mentioned it). Funny that.

As far as 'witnesses' to the 'global flood' - I'd hate to tell you this but if you witnessed a local flood it might seem 'global' to you - but it doesn't mean it is. It just means it's flooding as far as you can see - which is only a few miles at ground level, if that.

Men lie. Books lie. That's why we go to evidence that doesn't lie. That's why we go to evidence OUTSIDE of the bible.

What happens when we do? We uncover the truth - and that is a literal interpretation of genesis cannot be true. I'm still waiting for ANY creationist (besides you) to explain how all of these very large meteor impacts could have happened over a few thousand years, or how the white cliffs of Dover could have formed in such a time (and survived a flood), or how this magic flood could have possibly formed the layers of sedimentation that we find AND magically sort the fossils AND magically give lower layers different ages AND sort fossils that point to evolutionary descent over time, or how the massive ice caps over Greenland and Antarctica could have formed in a few thousand years - or where in the world is all this water when we don't have enough water to flood the world globally?

<staff edit>

First of all, eye witness testimony is accurate, and often is the sole factor in what convicts someone.

Supreme Court says no to new rule on eyewitness testimony - CSMonitor.com



A photograph of a person committing a crime, a fingerprint, DNA evidence - those are the things that don't lie. People do lie whether they intend to or not. They often remember things accurately and always remember every detail. They never make up things that weren't there to begin with. (
Structure, Structure, Structure)

As far as the Bible - I'd hate to be the bearer of truth, but the new testament was written The same generation or two after the events actually happened. There were a lot of copies made, to eliminate mistakes made by copy after copy. (There is a recent thread in this forum about that.)

Plus, inspired men wrote it - and inspired men don&#8217;t lie and tell the truth. By your logic, Harry Potter is just a story with no eye witnesses and describe places that never existed when it was written.
Nazareth, for example, was settled during the time of Josephus (Josephus mentioned it). Funny that.

As far as 'witnesses' to the 'global flood' - I'd hate to tell you this but if you witnessed a local flood it would not seem 'global' to you - but it doesn't mean it isn&#8217;t. It just means it's flooding as far as you can see - which could encompass the earth.

Men lie. Books lie. But the Bible does not.


What happens when we do? We uncover the truth - and that is a literal interpretation of genesis is true. I'm still waiting for ANY evolutionist (besides you) to explain how all of these very large meteor impacts could have happened over billions of years, or how the white cliffs of Dover could have formed in such a long period of time , or how this magic eons could have possibly formed the layers of sedimentation that we find AND magically sort the fossils AND magically give lower layers different (
structure, structure, structure) ages AND sort fossils that point to impossible evolutionary descent over time, or how the massive ice caps over Greenland and Antarctica could have formed in hundreds of thousands of years &#8211; Where the water is stored.

<staff edit>

My kind of proof is used in the courts and justice system today. It is accepted over all circumstances and speculation. It is the testimony of eyewitnesses; in the case of the Bible it is the Patriarchs and Prophets, those actually witnessed the Flood and passed the account in verbal and written form. The Bible&#8217;s history is real and verifiable; when it says a city existed or person&#8217;s they have been found in archeology.

That the &#8220;more sure&#8221; methodology.
 
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Zaius137

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No reason to fear the truth.
If you find yourself uncomfortable by arguments from the other side of the fence it is only natural. It is the epiphany of the moment that follows that can free your mind to learn something new or close it off to new ideas. One is liberating the other is stifling. If a personal Worldview is so fragile that it must be protected by retreating from the facts then intellectual growth is stifled. Whenever fear shapes an opinion the truth suffers. How liberating it is to dive into the science without fear of being wrong. Maxwell and Faraday thrived on that liberation. Jesus Christ was Lord and master of them both.


As for me I have found immutable ground. I have found a solid rock that is worthy of trust. Find that truth and that truth shall set you free. No one should ever fear the facts.
 
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Zaius137

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There are very good reasons for believing in the Bible. All of which are accepted in the academic community. We as Christians accept the Bible as truth by our minds, hearts and faith and God proclaimed his word to be true. That is good enough for me. But here are the secular reasons:


  • Expositional Consistency.
  • Historical Accuracy.
  • Prophetically accurate Predictions of 100%.
  • Source of unbiased law.

Good reasons to believe any truth.

I believe limiting Bible inerrancy to original Autographs. 20,000 old scribe copied manuscripts have resulted in a number of tiny refinements. There are problems in that Greek and Hebrew words have different meaning when translated into English, also no formatting in the original text existed it was placed in about 900 ad. All issues of faith, Practice and ideological stand inerrant in the manuscripts of the Bible.

The following compares the numbers of secular manuscripts to the numbers of Biblical manuscripts.


Compare Secular Historical manuscripts to Biblical manuscripts:


  • Josephus’ (The Jewish War) 9 complete manuscripts from the 5th century. Four centuries after they were written.
  • Tacitus’ (Annals of Imperial Rome) Roman History around Biblical times. Only 2 manuscripts from the middle ages.
  • Thucydides’ (History) survives in eight copies.
  • Caesars’ (Gallic Wars) 10 copies.
  • Herodotus’ (History) 8 copies.
  • Plato only seven copies all dated a millennium from the original.
  • Homers’ (Iliad) 647 existing copies.

For the Bible:
There are 5,500 separate Greek manuscripts represented by early fragments. Of the minuscules (small Greek letters in cursive style) there are 2,795 fragments from the 9th to 15th century comprising 34 complete New Testaments. The New Testament is over 99% pure because there are about 20,000 lines, only 40 are in doubt (about 400 words), and none affects any significant doctrine.


  • Uncial manuscripts are comprised of almost complete New Testaments dating back to the 4th century.
  • Codex Vaticanus dating to c. 325-350.
  • Codex Sinaiticus to c. 340 contains nearly half of the Old Testament and virtually all the New Testament.
  • Codex Alexandrius contains the entire Old Testament and nearly complete New Testament from the mid-5th century.



Evidence from the fragments is as follows:


  • Chester Beatty Papyri contains the New Testament dated from the mid 3rd century.
  • Bodmer Papyri II collection first fourteen chapters of the Gospel of John and much of the last seven chapters. Dates from A.D 200 or earlier.
  • Rylands Papyri is evidence that a copy of the New Testament reached Egypt 40 years after it was writhen. It is a fragment including John 18:31-33 and dates to or before A.D. 117-138.

In all about 50 manuscripts contain the entire New Testament. The textual evidence is more than sufficient to qualify as a substantial verification of the Bible. Early in Church history the Scriptures were translated into Latin (10,000 copies exist). By the third and fourth century the New Testament was translated into Coptic and Syriac and soon after into Armenian.

A note on errors (Bart Ehrman critical review of errors):
Out of the number of errors (400,000 because of the great number of manuscripts) are spelling. More errors are in abbreviations. Some variations do affect theological issues like (the comma Johanneum) that echo’s the Trinity. This corruption dates from the 10th century and shows up in four manuscripts. The variation is universally acknowledged to be errant.

Wallace categorizes the errors as follows:


  • Spelling differences or nonsense readings
  • Inconsequential work order (“Christ Jesus vs. “Jesus Christ”) and synonyms
  • Meaningful, though non-viable variants e.g., the Comma Johanneum)
  • Variants that are both meaningful and viable (“much less than 1%”) these are in whole are theologically insignificant

Bart Ehrman says most of these have nothing to do with theology or ideology. His books (Misquoting Jesus, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture) published 2005.
Ehrman’s top objections (10 with the first 6 eliminated):

First, six of ten citations he points out do not appear in the earliest manuscripts as noted in the (NASB).
Second, Questionable passages in Luke (22:20, 24:12, 24:51b) are located in uncontestable passages else ware (Matt 26:28, Mark 14:24, John 20:3-7, Acts 1:9,11).
Third, nothing is lost of any theological consequence by striking out any variants Ehrman lists e.g. long ending Mark (16:9-20). The possible non-canonical account of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11).
Finally, his own methods used to critique the New Testament can be used to reconstruct and weed out the variants. In other words he has used reliable text to illuminate the possible variants.

It is unique and has no other writing like it. It contains Prophecy that has been fulfilled to the letter and describes Man’s nature to a tee.
 
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CaliforniaSun

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There are very good reasons for believing in the Bible. All of which are accepted in the academic community. We as Christians accept the Bible as truth by our minds, hearts and faith and God proclaimed his word to be true. That is good enough for me. But here are the secular reasons:


  • Expositional Consistency.
  • Historical Accuracy.
  • Prophetically accurate Predictions of 100%.
  • Source of unbiased law.
Good reasons to believe any truth.

I believe limiting Bible inerrancy to original Autographs. 20,000 old scribe copied manuscripts have resulted in a number of tiny refinements. There are problems in that Greek and Hebrew words have different meaning when translated into English, also no formatting in the original text existed it was placed in about 900 ad. All issues of faith, Practice and ideological stand inerrant in the manuscripts of the Bible.

The following compares the numbers of secular manuscripts to the numbers of Biblical manuscripts.


Compare Secular Historical manuscripts to Biblical manuscripts:


  • Josephus’ (The Jewish War) 9 complete manuscripts from the 5th century. Four centuries after they were written.
  • Tacitus’ (Annals of Imperial Rome) Roman History around Biblical times. Only 2 manuscripts from the middle ages.
  • Thucydides’ (History) survives in eight copies.
  • Caesars’ (Gallic Wars) 10 copies.
  • Herodotus’ (History) 8 copies.
  • Plato only seven copies all dated a millennium from the original.
  • Homers’ (Iliad) 647 existing copies.
For the Bible:
There are 5,500 separate Greek manuscripts represented by early fragments. Of the minuscules (small Greek letters in cursive style) there are 2,795 fragments from the 9th to 15th century comprising 34 complete New Testaments. The New Testament is over 99% pure because there are about 20,000 lines, only 40 are in doubt (about 400 words), and none affects any significant doctrine.


  • Uncial manuscripts are comprised of almost complete New Testaments dating back to the 4th century.
  • Codex Vaticanus dating to c. 325-350.
  • Codex Sinaiticus to c. 340 contains nearly half of the Old Testament and virtually all the New Testament.
  • Codex Alexandrius contains the entire Old Testament and nearly complete New Testament from the mid-5th century.


Evidence from the fragments is as follows:


  • Chester Beatty Papyri contains the New Testament dated from the mid 3rd century.
  • Bodmer Papyri II collection first fourteen chapters of the Gospel of John and much of the last seven chapters. Dates from A.D 200 or earlier.
  • Rylands Papyri is evidence that a copy of the New Testament reached Egypt 40 years after it was writhen. It is a fragment including John 18:31-33 and dates to or before A.D. 117-138.
In all about 50 manuscripts contain the entire New Testament. The textual evidence is more than sufficient to qualify as a substantial verification of the Bible. Early in Church history the Scriptures were translated into Latin (10,000 copies exist). By the third and fourth century the New Testament was translated into Coptic and Syriac and soon after into Armenian.

A note on errors (Bart Ehrman critical review of errors):
Out of the number of errors (400,000 because of the great number of manuscripts) are spelling. More errors are in abbreviations. Some variations do affect theological issues like (the comma Johanneum) that echo’s the Trinity. This corruption dates from the 10th century and shows up in four manuscripts. The variation is universally acknowledged to be errant.

Wallace categorizes the errors as follows:


  • Spelling differences or nonsense readings
  • Inconsequential work order (“Christ Jesus vs. “Jesus Christ”) and synonyms
  • Meaningful, though non-viable variants e.g., the Comma Johanneum)
  • Variants that are both meaningful and viable (“much less than 1%”) these are in whole are theologically insignificant
Bart Ehrman says most of these have nothing to do with theology or ideology. His books (Misquoting Jesus, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture) published 2005.
Ehrman’s top objections (10 with the first 6 eliminated):

First, six of ten citations he points out do not appear in the earliest manuscripts as noted in the (NASB).
Second, Questionable passages in Luke (22:20, 24:12, 24:51b) are located in uncontestable passages else ware (Matt 26:28, Mark 14:24, John 20:3-7, Acts 1:9,11).
Third, nothing is lost of any theological consequence by striking out any variants Ehrman lists e.g. long ending Mark (16:9-20). The possible non-canonical account of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11).
Finally, his own methods used to critique the New Testament can be used to reconstruct and weed out the variants. In other words he has used reliable text to illuminate the possible variants.

It is unique and has no other writing like it. It contains Prophecy that has been fulfilled to the letter and describes Man’s nature to a tee.
Problemo numero uno: No extant autographs.
 
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cupid dave

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Problemo numero uno: No extant autographs.


Originally Posted by Zaius137

Let's start simple – I know that a 6,000 year old earth and literal interpretation of genesis is right.

How could it be right?

Earth time did not begin ticking until God made the Solar Clock on the 4th "day."




14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


(So the previous references to "days" apparently were NOT 24 hour deals?)
 
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RickG

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Thanks again for the links&#8230; In one of the articles I found that there was some cross dating speculation that has to have a wrong date attached.

Detailed comparison of high-resolution DEP records from this core and the Dome Fuji core support the 5561 kyr BP fit best.

Interpreting ancient ice in a shallow ice core from the South Yamato (Antarctica) blue ice area using flow modeling and compositional matching to deep ice cores | Mendeley

That is 5,561 kyr&#8230; is that a misprint?

No it is not a misprint, you read it wrong. It is written 55 - 61 kyr, which means 55,000 to 61,000 years.

I suppose that (DEP) refers to Department of Environmental protection and he would be cross matching events to date this core? Is this a claim for a match 5 million years ago?
No, it means high-resolution Dielectric Profiling. Dielectric Profiling measures the electrical conductivity in acid and salts. Your 5 million figure is an incorrect number of your misunderstanding.

Also, the only reason I gave those links of Kurbatov's papers since 2009 is because it matches your articles date to present so you could see that none of those articles have anything about dating ice 2.5 million years.

I do not believe that the claims of the WEB article hold any water. Actually I used this article focusing on Kurbatov&#8217;s work as a kind of foil for your claim that there is a consensus in the ice core dates.
Your comments didn't hold any water because the article didn't say or imply what you said it did. Nor did any of Kurbatov's research say what you implied it to.

Facts are facts.
Yes&#8230;
Having said that, don't you think it might be about time to begin acknowledging those facts <staff edit>


What you have been claiming is not supported in any of your citations nor any I have searched for.
Was that a claim of 2.5 million year old ice? Or that there are consensus problems in the paradigm?
No the 2.5 million year old ice claim was yours and only yours. No one made any claims of dating 2.5 million year old ice.


<staff edit>
<staff edit>
<staff edit>

<staff edit> Now, where is it you studied paleoclimatology?

This is not a case where we have conflicting ideas, it's a case where you are making claims and giving citations that you say support your claims when in fact they do not.
Not really conflicting ideas (they all say that the ice is old). But there is a matter of date concensus.
Again, there are no date conflicts.<staff edit>
 
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Zaius137

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No it is not a misprint, you read it wrong. It is written 55 - 61 kyr, which means 55,000 to 61,000 years.

No, it means high-resolution Dielectric Profiling. Dielectric Profiling measures the electrical conductivity in acid and salts. Your 5 million figure is an incorrect number of your misunderstanding.

Also, the only reason I gave those links of Kurbatov's papers since 2009 is because it matches your articles date to present so you could see that none of those articles have anything about dating ice 2.5 million years.

Your comments didn't hold any water because the article didn't say or imply what you said it did. Nor did any of Kurbatov's research say what you implied it to.

Having said that, don't you think it might be about time to begin acknowledging those facts instead of misrepresenting them.


No the 2.5 million year old ice claim was yours and only yours. No one made any claims of dating 2.5 million year old ice.


<staff edit> Now, where is it you studied paleoclimatology?

Again, there are no date conflicts. The are a complete invention of your own by misrepresenting news articles and published peer review science.

Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding I had with that paper. Now let&#8217;s work on your misunderstanding of ice core dates verses accepted ice sheet formation date.

Since you can not appreciate the point I am trying to make let me take a different tact. To get ice cores with a maximum of 1 million years the old layers from 13 million years would have had to been removed.

The problem is ice layers for 13 million years would have to been eliminated in 1 million years. That means in the last 1 myr the total mass of 13 myr would have to be cycled out. So precipitation in east Antarctica in the last 1 myr would have to been equal to 13 myr of ancient precipitation. That means precipitation has increased 1,300%.

There is already an overestimate by the uniformitarian paradigm.

Interestingly, the best estimate came out to be about 3,900 feet (1,200 m). The yearly average precipitation in water equivalents would have been 95 inches/year (2.4 m/yr).

Chapter 9: The Peak of the Ice Age - Answers in Genesis

The replacement of the past snow fall would have been impossible in 1 million years.


To compound the issue here is even a earlier date for ice sheet origin.


Yet studying erosion rates could help researchers better figure out the history of Antarctic ice, says Thomson. He is now working on more detailed studies of erosion over the past 34 million years, when the great East Antarctic ice sheet is thought to have started growing.

Peering Beneath the Antarctic Ice Sheet Reveals Giant Fjords | Planetsave

One more thing...

Your comments didn't hold any water because the article didn't say or imply what you said it did. Nor did any of Kurbatov's research say what you implied it to.

You know I can only quote from the articles I find and the Kurbatov nonsense was right from a news report. That 2.5 million year date is what they expect to find&#8230; let&#8217;s see if they do before saying the article doesn&#8217;t support my point.

Now really Rick get real here and not just deny the date discordance. Remember ice cores are down to at least 3,600 meters so you have about 1000 meters to get 13 million years of snow fall&#8230; are they compressed that much?
 
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Zaius137

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<staff edit>

Now explain how 800k yr of snow fall (that which is present now by your ice core paradigm) will obscure a 34 million year ice shelf. You better not claim that 800k yr of snow fall will vanquish that 14 to 34 million year of accumulated snow fall.
 
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Thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding I had with that paper. Now let&#8217;s work on your misunderstanding of ice core dates verses accepted ice sheet formation date.
<staff edit>Ice core dates are based on annual layers, ice sheet formation dates are not. Ice sheet formation dates are based on &#8220;marine sediment&#8221; cores. There are special markers in marine sediments that are unique to glaciation. By dating those markers we know when the glaciations initiated, advanced and retreated. There is no conflict and associating those two processes as being in conflict is wrong.

Since you can not appreciate the point I am trying to make let me take a different tact. To get ice cores with a maximum of 1 million years the old layers from 13 million years would have had to been removed.

<staff edit> There have not been any million year ice core dates retrieved as of yet. <staff edit>


The problem is ice layers for 13 million years would have to been eliminated in 1 million years. That means in the last 1 myr the total mass of 13 myr would have to be cycled out. So precipitation in east Antarctica in the last 1 myr would have to been equal to 13 myr of ancient precipitation. That means precipitation has increased 1,300%.

<staff edit>


There is already an overestimate by the uniformitarian paradigm.
There is no overstatement. The problem lies with your insistence in trying to correlate ice core annual layers with marine sediment cores.

Interestingly, the best estimate came out to be about 3,900 feet (1,200 m). The yearly average precipitation in water equivalents would have been 95 inches/year (2.4 m/yr).

<staff edit>


The replacement of the past snow fall would have been impossible in 1 million years.
Have you ever considered looking at the actual scientific literature <staff edit>.

You know I can only quote from the articles I find and the Kurbatov nonsense was right from a news report. That 2.5 million year date is what they expect to find&#8230; let&#8217;s see if they do before saying the article doesn&#8217;t support my point.
We did see Zaius. That is why I sourced and gave links to &#8220;all&#8221; of Kurbatov&#8217;s published research for the date of the news article to present. There was no ice dated to 2.5 million years. I pointed that out to you previously. <staff edit>

Now really Rick get real here and not just deny the date discordance. Remember ice cores are down to at least 3,600 meters so you have about 1000 meters to get 13 million years of snow fall&#8230; are they compressed that much?
When and where has an ice core been retrieved dating 13 million years? <staff edit>

<staff edit> I have a master&#8217;s degree in physical earth science with a concentration in paleoclimatology (Univ. of Memphis 1972). Furthermore, my masters&#8217; thesis was on the causes of continental glaciation. <staff edit>
 
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CabVet

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I cannot believe we are still discussing this "discrepancy" between how long Antarctica has been frozen and how old the ice cores are. Zaius, I have a question for you, human skin cells do not live more than 50 days, does that mean that all humans in this planet are no older than 50 days?
 
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suzybeezy

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MOD HAT ON

A thread clean up has occurred (back to page 20)

You all should be capable of having a civil debate as adults without resorting to flaming. When you resort to flaming, you loose the debate. A winning argument never needs to reduce itself to such childish behavior. Just food for thought.

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Zaius137

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<staff edit>Ice core dates are based on annual layers, ice sheet formation dates are not. Ice sheet formation dates are based on “marine sediment” cores. There are special markers in marine sediments that are unique to glaciation. By dating those markers we know when the glaciations initiated, advanced and retreated. There is no conflict and associating those two processes as being in conflict is wrong.


<staff edit> There have not been any million year ice core dates retrieved as of yet. <staff edit>



<staff edit>


There is no overstatement. The problem lies with your insistence in trying to correlate ice core annual layers with marine sediment cores.


<staff edit>


Have you ever considered looking at the actual scientific literature <staff edit>.

We did see Zaius. That is why I sourced and gave links to “all” of Kurbatov’s published research for the date of the news article to present. There was no ice dated to 2.5 million years. I pointed that out to you previously. <staff edit>

When and where has an ice core been retrieved dating 13 million years? <staff edit>

<staff edit> I have a master’s degree in physical earth science with a concentration in paleoclimatology (Univ. of Memphis 1972). Furthermore, my masters’ thesis was on the causes of continental glaciation. <staff edit>
Ice cores can not be 400 thousand years old at Vostok the evidence points to a very young age.

By the current assumptions…

To date ice cores have been extracted from a depth of 3623 meters and were dated to 420,000 years.

That accumulation for 420 thousand years would suggest a precipitation rate of about .0086 meters a year or 8.6 mm of accumulation a year. The annual accumulation at Vostok is 21.5 mm year. Ablation of the lower ice can not account for the 12.9 mm difference between the two figures.

Also the accreted interface ice over the lake is unusually thick suggesting a low velocity of ice flow.

“Seventy-day temporal baselines provide the sensitivity required to observe the range of ice motion (0-6 m/yr) over the lake and the adjacent ice sheet.”

“If all the accretion ice is from LakeVostok, the time implied for passage over water is 55 to 220 kyr. If only the clean ice strata is from the lake the time over water ranges from 140 to 35 kyr. In either case the joint growth rate and thickness lead to an inference that the ice on which the Vostok Station rests had been in accretion for about 10 times longer than the velocity data indicate possible. This is too large to be accommodated in the growth rate uncertainty, which is well established, and it is unlikely that the ice motion changed
dramatically over the past 5000 years. The ice motion suggests a freezing rate of
approximately 4 cdyr. “

http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/18381/1/99-1859.pdf

Despite what other participants have claimed the ice under Vostok would not melt from pressure of upper ice because of its excessive low temperature…

“The mean annual temperature at the South Pole is -48°C and in the interior of the East Antarctic Ice Sheet at Vostok it is about -55°C. For comparison Northern Hemisphere winter temperatures are rarely much below -30°C at the North Pole, and inside your freezer at home it is only about -18°C!

What little precipitation there is mostly falls as snow, averaging less than 50mm a year (water equivalent) across much of the interior.

The presence of so much ice despite such low precipitation is simply due to the fact that low temperatures cause even less ablation than accumulation (see Sections 1.2 and 1.4 for an account of the build up of the Antarctic Ice Sheet).”


Discovering Antarctica - A-level - Key factors behind Antarctica's climate

Given the supposed 13 million year old assumption of the age of the ice sheet…

“Antarctica cooled further and the East Antarctic Ice Sheet reached a size similar to today about 13.8 myr ago. The West Antarctic Ice Sheet reached its full state about 6 myr ago. This is much earlier than in the Northern Hemisphere where glaciers did not develop into ice sheets until after 3 myr ago.”

Discovering Antarctica - A-level - Tectonic history: into the deep freeze


And given the ice flow and ablation data the old ice would have to be still present but no traces of ice over 800 thousand years (old age assumptions) have ever been found. Just look at a flow rate diagram. The light blue areas would contain very old and very thick ice… they do not.

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You see there is no way to explain why ice cores are only dated to 800 thousand years by your assumptions. I deem your assumptions wrong and suggest a very young age of Antarctica ice…
 

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