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Young Earth Creationist dynamics.

Zaius137

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Ice 400,000 years old tells creationists that God did not make everything 6000 years ago.
Did they hit rock or were they just unable to drill any deeper? that's 2.93 and 2.26 miles down.

Let me repost some of this just to help you out…


My point was to show a disparity in the derived dates from ice core research (< 1 million years) and the accepted dates for the first ice accumulation on that continent (the 15 million year date).



In doing this I might show an obvious flaw in the reasoning for disparity in the two interpretations. I also hoped to show the fragility of the root assumptions leading to the date conclusions.


My point was that if the 400k years was wrong why 6000 years couldn’t be correct given the right assumptions (these layers were just individual snow storms).

In a short synopsis…


Ice core dating less than 1 million years, Antarctica snow fall accepted assumption about 15 million years (mutually exclusive). One or the other has to be incorrect but I believe they both are.
 
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Zaius137

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So you intend to dismiss your own eyewitness account of violence to a family member. I doubt you will, but I admire your effort to talk a good story.





There is no examining history except by written accounts.





"Myth" is simply what one chooses not to believe. Nothing more. All scientific accounts of historical events are fiction. Some are great fiction. Some are hack-pulp fiction.



It is not. All eyes are attached to fools and sinners. But those who write about historical events can be examined by peers and critics who can decide if the writings fit their memories or experiences. Also not fool-proof but far far more reliable than fictional accounts created from scratch.


I have to commend you on your patient attitude on this forum, I am sure you will reap a reward in heaven.
 
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Zaius137

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And all of this proves there's a God how? we don't know everything so there's a God, we don't know where we came from so there's a God.
You know why you're a Christian and not a Muslim don't you?


Did I inadvertently push some kind of button? I am only arguing for YEC at the moment… you know the title on the thread.
 
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Zaius137

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No buttons sorry just trying to get you to think, silly me.

I do detect a bit of mockery in that remark. Maybe you pushed one of my buttons.

This brings up an interesting point. I could easily produce an impressive list of professionals in science who are dedicated to Christ and the complete accuracy of the Bible. To say nothing of the major contributions of past scientists like James Clerk Maxwell and Michael Faraday who were fundamental Christians. Why the condescension when discoveries in science might actually prove the Biblical account. Are we experiencing the same kind of intellectual persecution that the Atheist accuses religion of possibly evoking if “Christians had there way”.

Frankly you know nothing of my intellectual standing yet you judge me. I have never claimed to posses any such standing nor does it matter. I love the science… Do you?
 
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Mr Strawberry

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I do detect a bit of mockery in that remark. Maybe you pushed one of my buttons.

This brings up an interesting point. I could easily produce an impressive list of professionals in science who are dedicated to Christ and the complete accuracy of the Bible. To say nothing of the major contributions of past scientists like James Clerk Maxwell and Michael Faraday who were fundamental Christians. Why the condescension when discoveries in science might actually prove the Biblical account. Are we experiencing the same kind of intellectual persecution that the Atheist accuses religion of possibly evoking if “Christians had there way”.

Frankly you know nothing of my intellectual standing yet you judge me. I have never claimed to posses any such standing nor does it matter. I love the science… Do you?

Not many scientists today believe in a 6000 year old creation event. I deliberately wrote "not many" as there are bound to be one or two eccentrics somewhere who maintain a young earth opinion in spite of the evidence, but the number will be insignificant. A list of 'professionals in science dedicated to the accuracy of the bible' will almost certainly require close scrutiny and, from reading about previous such lists, will not be quite what it pretends to be.
 
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RickG

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Rick….

My point was to show a disparity in the derived dates from ice core research
(< 1 million years) and the accepted dates for the first ice accumulation on that continent (the 15 million year date). In doing this I hoped for you to draw a conclusion of what might be the reason for disparity in the two interpretations. I also hoped to show the fragility of the root assumptions leading to the date conclusions. As I saw your options you would either favor one set of assumptions over the other or try and reconcile the disparity (hence the ad-hoc nonsense from Cabvet).

Well, as I suggested earlier, "I smell a quote mine", which probably originates in "which ever" creationists literature you are sourcing. The only way anyone can really understand the science is to source the scientific literature and those scientists who published their research. If you can provide the source where you read this, perhaps I can source the original published research and show what they actually say.

One thing I suspect is the comparison of unrelated ice cores. I think one thing you don't quite understand that in Antarctica is that some ice cores go deeper than recognizable annual layers. At that point, annual layer counting is impossible. However, major volcanic eruptions, those that eject ash into the stratosphere (ex: Mt. Pinatubo), on average twice a century. The recent Iceland eruption did not eject any ash into the stratosphere, though much of it fell on western Europe. When a volcanic eruption such as the Pinatubo eruption occurs, ash remains in the stratosphere for a few years before completely falling out. Because of this long duration time it spreads through Earth's atmosphere and settles everywhere. It beomes particularly recognizable in regions where permanent snow and ice exist, therefore, the polar ice caps. Below the annual layer resolution lie these stratospheric events containing volcanic ash. Volcanic ash can be dated radiometrically. That is where the older ages come from. Additionally, the determination of the formation and melting of continental ice sheets in deep time does not come from ice cores, but rather cores from marine sediments, which contain additional information not available in ice cores.

I was later going to dump this little chestnut on the fire if you decided to opt for the ad-hoc explication…. Since the greatest depth of Antarctic ice is ~4700 meters and the Vostok station reached 3623 meters with an assumed date of 400k years. Where did 13.6 million years go to?
Explained above. Nevertheless, here is a link to a paper that describes Early Cenozoic Glaciation and the techniques used.

http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~jzachos/pubs/ZacOQH_99.pdf


"In January 1998, the collaborative ice-drilling project between Russia, the United States, and France at the Russian Vostok station in East Antarctica yielded the deepest ice core ever recovered, reaching a depth of 3,623 m (Petit et al. 1997, 1999). Preliminary data indicate the Vostok ice-core record extends through four climate cycles, with ice slightly older than 400 kyr (Petit et al. 1997, 1999)."

NOAA Paleoclimatology World Data Centers Vostok Ice Core
Yeah! So?
 
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RickG

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Looks interesting but the connection repeatedly times out…. I will try later.

I hope you are able to access the PDF document as I would like your critique of it without any initial input from me. Cheers! :)
 
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Zaius137

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Well, as I suggested earlier, "I smell a quote mine", which probably originates in "which ever" creationists literature you are sourcing. The only way anyone can really understand the science is to source the scientific literature and those scientists who published their research. If you can provide the source where you read this, perhaps I can source the original published research and show what they actually say.

One thing I suspect is the comparison of unrelated ice cores. I think one thing you don't quite understand that in Antarctica is that some ice cores go deeper than recognizable annual layers. At that point, annual layer counting is impossible. However, major volcanic eruptions, those that eject ash into the stratosphere (ex: Mt. Pinatubo), on average twice a century. The recent Iceland eruption did not eject any ash into the stratosphere, though much of it fell on western Europe. When a volcanic eruption such as the Pinatubo eruption occurs, ash remains in the stratosphere for a few years before completely falling out. Because of this long duration time it spreads through Earth's atmosphere and settles everywhere. It beomes particularly recognizable in regions where permanent snow and ice exist, therefore, the polar ice caps. Below the annual layer resolution lie these stratospheric events containing volcanic ash. Volcanic ash can be dated radiometrically. That is where the older ages come from. Additionally, the determination of the formation and melting of continental ice sheets in deep time does not come from ice cores, but rather cores from marine sediments, which contain additional information not available in ice cores.

Explained above. Nevertheless, here is a link to a paper that describes Early Cenozoic Glaciation and the techniques used.

http://www.es.ucsc.edu/~jzachos/pubs/ZacOQH_99.pdf


Yeah! So?

Well actually I was careful to avoid any Creationist website for any of the data about the Ice core dating or the accepted age of the Antarctic climate. You can verify that my citations are accepted in many circles. Here they are for one last time…

“The ice began to spread, replacing the forests that then covered the continent. Since about 15 Ma, the continent has been mostly covered with ice,[37] with the Antarctic ice cap reaching its present extension around 6 Ma.”

Antarctica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


A significant cooling transition occurrs 10 to15 Mya). This is reflected in an increase in the d18 O record between 14 and 15Ma, caused by the rapid growth of the Antarctic ice sheet (Shackleton & Kennet, 1975) and a deep water cooling event (4 to 5°C) (Moore et al., 1987).

Geological Time Scale for the origins and evolution of life.


The current icy period of Antarctica's history began about 25 million years
ago in the Miocene epoch. The oldest and deepest parts of the ice are
believed to be 15 million years old.

Antarctic Ice

I will not belabor the point further… I was asked and provide the quotations; if they are considered quote mining by you I might add I don’t believe any of the entries I added here are out of context but to the point of the article. You can review quote mining here… Unless you think this is also a quote mine?

Fallacy of quoting out of context - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


You have brought in a number of supporting techniques as you might agree most of the assumptions rest firmly on an older snow fall age. I always believe the following…

"A man may imagine things that are false, but he can only understand things that are true, for if the things be false, the apprehension of them is not understanding."

Famous Isaac Newton Quotes ( A favorite Bible believing Christian of mine)
 
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Zaius137

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Rick&#8230;

Quote mining&#8230;

I did not intentionally wish to take any quotes out of context which is the core of quote mining. I believe if you open my citations none are out of context. Here is the official definition of the term that will prevent further misuse of the term.

Fallacy of quoting out of context - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Zaius137

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I hope you are able to access the PDF document as I would like your critique of it without any initial input from me. Cheers! :)

Very good by the way…

A question?

When dating using accepted methodologies in radionuclides is the embedding material ever considered? About the embedding of Uranium in Zircon, my question would be is the decay rate of Uranium affected? Oops… that was one of my supporting evidences from RATE.
 
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juvenissun

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Then it isn't evidence.

You should say: it isn't an evidence to YOU.
An evidence is knowledge dependent. Sometimes, it is beyond knowledge.
A Jedi can "see" an evidence of something nobody else can see.
 
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Davian

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SkyWriting

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Not many scientists today believe in a 6000 year old creation event. I deliberately wrote "not many" as there are bound to be one or two eccentrics somewhere who maintain a young earth opinion in spite of the evidence, but the number will be insignificant. A list of 'professionals in science dedicated to the accuracy of the bible' will almost certainly require close scrutiny and, from reading about previous such lists, will not be quite what it pretends to be.

A 1997 gallup poll determined 5% agreed "God created man pretty much in his present form at one time within the last 10,000 years."
Other data shows 700 to 10,000 in the US.

:amen:
 
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SkyWriting

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The New Testament argues that Truth is our God .Isn't that what we seek right here?
The Truth?

Actually Jesus said He was the Truth.

Other passages are clear that men tell lies and cannot reason well.
 
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RickG

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Well actually I was careful to avoid any Creationist website for any of the data about the Ice core dating or the accepted age of the Antarctic climate. You can verify that my citations are accepted in many circles. Here they are for one last time…

Outstanding, I commend you for that. Let's look at the science by those who specialize in those scientific fields, not those who regurgitate bits and pieces of it for ideological reasons.

“The ice began to spread, replacing the forests that then covered the continent. Since about 15 Ma, the continent has been mostly covered with ice,[37] with the Antarctic ice cap reaching its present extension around 6 Ma.”

Antarctica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wiki is a good place to begin and especially for finding additional sources. Your quote comes from the section, "Gondwanaland breakup (160-23Ma)".
I'm not sure, but I think you are confused with timelines in that paragraph and that is completely understandable as it is rather ambiguous. If you will look at reference [37], it is a paper describing when continental glaciation first begin on Antarctica 34 Ma, not 23 Ma. This is not something that happened quickly nor did it cover the entire continent for quite some time. The 23 Ma statement is about the Drake Passage opening up, not when the ice first formed.


A significant cooling transition occurrs 10 to15 Mya). This is reflected in an increase in the d18 O record between 14 and 15Ma, caused by the rapid growth of the Antarctic ice sheet (Shackleton & Kennet, 1975) and a deep water cooling event (4 to 5°C) (Moore et al., 1987).

Geological Time Scale for the origins and evolution of life.
Context is everything here. That is an unrelated source describing a significant cooling trend, not the beginning of glaciation on Antarctica. It also, like the previous reference gets that information from marine sediment cores around Antarctica, not the ice sheets.


The current icy period of Antarctica's history began about 25 million years ago in the Miocene epoch. The oldest and deepest parts of the ice are believed to be 15 million years old.

Antarctic Ice
Again, context is everything. "The current icy period...." It does not conflict the earlier reference describing the initiation of glacial conditions 34 Ma.

I will not belabor the point further… I was asked and provide the quotations; if they are considered quote mining by you I might add I don’t believe any of the entries I added here are out of context but to the point of the article. You can review quote mining here… Unless you think this is also a quote mine?

Fallacy of quoting out of context - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I find no problem with any of the references you provided or the information contained in them with respect to Antarctic glaciations, nor do I find any conflict between them as they are not all describing the same events. I hope you can understand that.


You have brought in a number of supporting techniques as you might agree most of the assumptions rest firmly on an older snow fall age. I always believe the following…
Again, I cannot stress enough that the techniques and data obtained to arrive at 34 Ma, 23 Ma, 10 Ma and 6 Ma; are from marine sediment cores, not ice cores. They both yield much of the same information but ice core annual layers do have a limitation when it comes to "annual layers". Beyond that ice cores can only date specific events through radiometeric dating of specific isotopes deposited at specific depths where they occur.
[/quote]
 
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RickG

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Very good by the way…

A question?

When dating using accepted methodologies in radionuclides is the embedding material ever considered? About the embedding of Uranium in Zircon, my question would be is the decay rate of Uranium affected? Oops… that was one of my supporting evidences from RATE.

I really don't know why they would embed a cosmogenic radionuclide like 7Be in heavy metals that originate from the precipitation of cooling magma. 7Be does not naturally occur in Au or Pd. Of course in that study Uranium and Zircon are not discussed. As to whether the decay rate of Uranium affected in Zircon, I have never run across any published literature suggesting that. Remember, it is in the lighter and shorter half-life isotopes that decay by alpha or beta decay that exhibit any variation at all, not the heavier isotopes found in the Uranium series.
 
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