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Young-Earth Creationism
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Then why did you say that "God did not even create Adam mature, Adam was a baby when he was first created"--or was it just a guess?
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LouisBooth
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"I guess perhaps God could still be trustworthy, but only if he never intended us to study the earth. "
So God created everything for us to figure out and know or *gasp* somethings we can't? I think its the latter. I'll let you know when I talk to him though cancer.
"If the Earth is actually young, you must find reasons for why it would look old, or accept a deceptive God. That's all.
"
Not at all. Just like science finds something and must simply say, I don't know at this time, I'm making the same statement science does.
So God created everything for us to figure out and know or *gasp* somethings we can't? I think its the latter. I'll let you know when I talk to him though cancer.
"If the Earth is actually young, you must find reasons for why it would look old, or accept a deceptive God. That's all.
"
Not at all. Just like science finds something and must simply say, I don't know at this time, I'm making the same statement science does.
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LouisBooth
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"I hope and expect that LouisBooth would not abuse his position."
Not at all, this is my opinion as a poster. A cop doesn't arrest you for disagreeing with him on fiscal policy. LOL
Not at all, this is my opinion as a poster. A cop doesn't arrest you for disagreeing with him on fiscal policy. LOL
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But Louis:
If you honestly admit that you don't know why your interpretation of the Bible seems to conflict so greatly with the bulk of scientific evidence and discoveries, and if there are other interpretations of the scriptures in question which are at least as valid which do not conflict with science, would you consider the possibility that the other interpretations should at least be examined and considered?
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jon1101
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If you believe that God does not reveal himself through nature and never intended us to study this earth he gave us, I guess that's your perogative. Personally, however, I have no reason to believe that God's playing some divine trick on us by making the earth look billions of years older than it is.
Out of curiousity, how exactly do you support the idea that God created the earth as if it were billions of years old? I can't seem to think of any evidence for such an assertion.
-jon
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LouisBooth
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"If you honestly admit that you don't know why your interpretation of the Bible seems to conflict so greatly with the bulk of scientific evidence and discoveries"
the bulk? Doubtful.
"would you consider the possibility that the other interpretations should at least be examined and considered?"
I always have and always will, I see just as many problems with other views.
"If you believe that God does not reveal himself through nature and never intended us to study this earth he gave us, I guess that's your perogative. "
Please do not put words in my mouth, thanks. I in no way shape or form said that.
"Out of curiousity, how exactly do you support the idea that God created the earth as if it were billions of years old? I can't seem to think of any evidence for such an assertion."
Biblical evidence?
the bulk? Doubtful.
"would you consider the possibility that the other interpretations should at least be examined and considered?"
I always have and always will, I see just as many problems with other views.
"If you believe that God does not reveal himself through nature and never intended us to study this earth he gave us, I guess that's your perogative. "
Please do not put words in my mouth, thanks. I in no way shape or form said that.
"Out of curiousity, how exactly do you support the idea that God created the earth as if it were billions of years old? I can't seem to think of any evidence for such an assertion."
Biblical evidence?
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Sinai: "If you honestly admit that you don't know why your interpretation of the Bible seems to conflict so greatly with the bulk of scientific evidence and discoveries..."
Louis: "the bulk? Doubtful."
Louis....Louis...Louis....
Take the blinders off, Louis; It's fine for you to believe the universe is only 6,000 years old if you choose to do so--but you are merely deceiving yourself if you think the bulk of the scientific evidence does not indicate otherwise. You may choose to ignore or discount the evidence if you wish to do so, but claiming that it is "doubtful" that the bulk of scientific evidence indicates a universe far older than 6000 years falls short of the standard of intellectual honesty I have come to expect from you, Louis.
Sinai: "would you consider the possibility that the other interpretations should at least be examined and considered?"
Louis: "I always have and always will, I see just as many problems with other views."
Such as?
Cancer: "Out of curiousity, how exactly do you support the idea that God created the earth as if it were billions of years old? I can't seem to think of any evidence for such an assertion."
Louis: "Biblical evidence?"
Which biblical evidence states that the universe is only 6,000 years old, and that God made it look older than that in order to deceive us (or test us, or some other similar motive)?
Louis: "the bulk? Doubtful."
Louis....Louis...Louis....
Take the blinders off, Louis; It's fine for you to believe the universe is only 6,000 years old if you choose to do so--but you are merely deceiving yourself if you think the bulk of the scientific evidence does not indicate otherwise. You may choose to ignore or discount the evidence if you wish to do so, but claiming that it is "doubtful" that the bulk of scientific evidence indicates a universe far older than 6000 years falls short of the standard of intellectual honesty I have come to expect from you, Louis.
Sinai: "would you consider the possibility that the other interpretations should at least be examined and considered?"
Louis: "I always have and always will, I see just as many problems with other views."
Such as?
Cancer: "Out of curiousity, how exactly do you support the idea that God created the earth as if it were billions of years old? I can't seem to think of any evidence for such an assertion."
Louis: "Biblical evidence?"
Which biblical evidence states that the universe is only 6,000 years old, and that God made it look older than that in order to deceive us (or test us, or some other similar motive)?
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Louis: I'm going to have to echo Sinai here. The bulk, heck the vast bulk. Heck, everything geologists have discovered, explored and understood over the past 300 years states that the earth is far, far, far older than 10,000 years.
The first geologists were all good Christians, who started looking at the world, presupposing a Deluge. They were shocked to find the rocks contradicting the Bible, and ultimately forced to accept that no such Flood had ever occured.
And the more they looked, the more the rocks contradicted the Bible. The earth looked older and older. The better their understanding got, the better their tools got, the older the Earth got.
You will not be able to find a single geologist who thinks the earth is 10,000 years old except for those whose religious ideology absolutely requires it. Those, to be blunt, who believe any evidence that contradicts their religion is, by definition, false.
The Earth is old, Louis. Billions of years old. It's as much an established fact of geology as the fact that the Earth is round. And, like a round earth, the only ones who dispute it, are those with a religious bias.
Feel free to take your faith over evidence. That's what faith is, in a sense. But don't pretend, for a second, that the evidence supports your faith.
The first geologists were all good Christians, who started looking at the world, presupposing a Deluge. They were shocked to find the rocks contradicting the Bible, and ultimately forced to accept that no such Flood had ever occured.
And the more they looked, the more the rocks contradicted the Bible. The earth looked older and older. The better their understanding got, the better their tools got, the older the Earth got.
You will not be able to find a single geologist who thinks the earth is 10,000 years old except for those whose religious ideology absolutely requires it. Those, to be blunt, who believe any evidence that contradicts their religion is, by definition, false.
The Earth is old, Louis. Billions of years old. It's as much an established fact of geology as the fact that the Earth is round. And, like a round earth, the only ones who dispute it, are those with a religious bias.
Feel free to take your faith over evidence. That's what faith is, in a sense. But don't pretend, for a second, that the evidence supports your faith.
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....or the scientific evidence Morat referred to appears to contradict at least the young earth creationists' interpretation of what the Bible says....
Earlier today on another thread, MSBS called my attention to a very interesting website (click here) that deals with this topic. I haven't had a chance to read all of it yet, but have found the portion I have read to be very informative.
Earlier today on another thread, MSBS called my attention to a very interesting website (click here) that deals with this topic. I haven't had a chance to read all of it yet, but have found the portion I have read to be very informative.
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paulewog
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God didn't create the earth young.
God created it already 'old.'
God didn't create man a baby... the earth was not a baby in creation either.
Maybe that's why rocks seem so old?
God created it already 'old.'
God didn't create man a baby... the earth was not a baby in creation either.
Maybe that's why rocks seem so old?
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Why not? This very God put the lies into false prophets' mouths. For reference, browse a while and you'll find it.
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LewisWildermuth
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Originally posted by paulewog
God didn't create the earth young.
God created it already 'old.'
God didn't create man a baby... the earth was not a baby in creation either.
Maybe that's why rocks seem so old?
And your Biblical evidence backing up these statements? Or are you just making up statements that the bible never says?
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LouisBooth
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"that the bulk of scientific evidence indicates a universe far older than 6000 years falls short of the standard of intellectual honesty I have come to expect from you, Louis.
"
Sinai, I did the reading and research and it lined up perfectly with what I believe.
Sinai have you ever studied the maturing process of the human body? Things have to change and happen that take awhile to happen, but Adam appeared with those changes already in place, so the universe did too.
"
Sinai, I did the reading and research and it lined up perfectly with what I believe.
Sinai have you ever studied the maturing process of the human body? Things have to change and happen that take awhile to happen, but Adam appeared with those changes already in place, so the universe did too.
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LouisBooth
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"They were shocked to find the rocks contradicting the Bible, and ultimately forced to accept that no such Flood had ever occured."
cite? I doubt this is true.
"You will not be able to find a single geologist who thinks the earth is 10,000 years old except for those whose religious ideology absolutely requires it. "
And your point being? People without a religious belief don't believe in spirits either, but they still exsist. I see no real logic in this argument at all.
Just ask yourself 1. do you believe in a 4th dimention or a 5th, 6th..etc..Do you think they effect reality in a meaingful way? if so then you have to understand that its the same with creation.
cite? I doubt this is true.
"You will not be able to find a single geologist who thinks the earth is 10,000 years old except for those whose religious ideology absolutely requires it. "
And your point being? People without a religious belief don't believe in spirits either, but they still exsist. I see no real logic in this argument at all.
Just ask yourself 1. do you believe in a 4th dimention or a 5th, 6th..etc..Do you think they effect reality in a meaingful way? if so then you have to understand that its the same with creation.
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Think about what you just said, Louis.
Although the Bible does not say how old Adam was at the time he became a living soul, because you think he was physically mature at the time he received his neshama, that somehow means that the universe was created "mature"--just as it is now. Even though the two are not particularly connected or there is any logical reason for making the link, you do so. Not only is there no scriptural basis for that statement, it appears that it may even conflict with the first chapter of Genesis.
Even if there were some rational basis for linking the two events and even if it were not contrary to scripture, it still does not somehow magically conjure sufficient additional data in support of a 6,000 year old universe to validate your earlier comments regarding the bulk of scientific evidence.
Again, you may choose to believe something that is not supported by evidence if you wish to do so. You may also choose to believe something that is not supported by scripture if you wish to do so. You obviously have that right as a free moral agent. However, to claim that it is "doubtful" that the bulk of scientific evidence does not uphold a 6000-year old universe is not being intellectually honest. You generally have displayed much higher standards, Louis. Which is why I hope you will admit the error and retract the careless statement that was probably hastily made without sufficient thought.
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*shrug*. I don't blame you. Sort of a kick in the teeth to learn that devoted Young Earth Creationists, believing in a Global Flood, were forced by evidence to admit that no such thing occured. Try here or here but for the best info, you'd be well off picking this up at your local library. It is a detailed examination of the history of the Creationist movement. You'd be interested to note, for instance, that a YEC timeframe and a global flood wasn't a staple of creationism until the middle of this century.
Of course, a little thought would show that from about 1600 to the mid 1800s, most practicing geologists were European, and virtually every European was (you guessed it) Christian. And educated to believe in a young Earth and a global flood.
Your theology is your own, Louis, but it's telling that you on one hand claim the evidence supports you, and yet on another 'miracle' it away by claiming 'appearance of age'.
My point is simple, Louis: Why is it that the only people who believe the Earth is young and the Flood happened all accepted this as truth before they looked at the evidence? And further, their acceptance of it was so thorough that they frequently admit (see the CRS loyalty oath) that any contradictory evidence is wrong, regardless of it's nature?
You claimed there was evidence for a young earth. No experts but those who already hold it as truth can see it.
Did you forget your own claims? You claim all this data exists, yet it is insufficient to convince anyone. The only people who claim it is valid are those who believed already.
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