you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

[LittleLambofJesus]

The bible says to worship in spirit, and in truth.

Is truth whatever I determine it to be? Do I have to reinvent the truth every week, month, year or century?

Of course not.
Unless one wants to exchange a Truth for a Falsehood.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 11:29 Snatch/seize the yoke of Me upon ye, and be learning from Me, that meek I Am and humble to the heart, and ye shall be finding REST/anapausin <372> to the souls of ye

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages. And not they are having REST/anapausin <372> Day and Night

 

[Theophorus]

Of course not.
Unless one wants to exchange a Truth for a Falsehood.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matthew 11:29 Snatch/seize the yoke of Me upon ye, and be learning from Me, that meek I Am and humble to the heart, and ye shall be finding REST/anapausin <372> to the souls of ye

Well, that is a danger. So the "Lord's Prayer" should be safe enough. But some would even dismiss that.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Well, that is a danger. So the "Lord's Prayer" should be safe enough. But some would even dismiss that.

Did we mention that it's in the Liturgy several times? Indeed most people leaned the Lord's Prayer through The Liturgy.

Forgive me...

 

[holo]

Well, that is a danger. So the "Lord's Prayer" should be safe enough. But some would even dismiss that.

Actually, it appears that the Lord's prayer belongs to the old covenant, so it's really a shame that people repeat it today, without even thinking about what has changed since Jesus taught it. For example, "forgive us our debts as we have also forigven our debtors" - the fact is that on this side of the cross, God already has forgiven us. He did that while we were still sinners and His enemies! In the new covenant, we don't forgive in order to have the Lord forgive us - we forgive because He already HAS forgiven us!

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Also, "thy kingdom come..." - it has come! It is in us and among us!

So we can't just copy something Jesus said and assume that we can apply it to this covenant and this day and age, and to this side of the cross. So no, the Lord's prayer is hardly "safe enough"

 

[Theophorus]

Actually, it appears that the Lord's prayer belongs to the old covenant, so it's really a shame that people repeat it today, without even thinking about what has changed since Jesus taught it. For example, "forgive us our debts as we have also forigven our debtors" - the fact is that on this side of the cross, God already has forgiven us. He did that while we were still sinners and His enemies! In the new covenant, we don't forgive in order to have the Lord forgive us - we forgive because He already HAS forgiven us!

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Also, "thy kingdom come..." - it has come! It is in us and among us!

So we can't just copy something Jesus said and assume that we can apply it to this covenant and this day and age, and to this side of the cross. So no, the Lord's prayer is hardly "safe enough"

So the Lord's prayer is nullified. Nothing is safe, even if it is from the sermon on the mount.

I stand corrected. RC and EO are reading the scriptures to fundamentally in practicing it.

 

[holo]

So the Lord's prayer is nullified. Nothing is safe, even if it is from the sermon on the mount.

I stand corrected. RC and EO are reading the scriptures to fundamentally in practicing it.

Nope, I didn't say it was nullified. I said some things have changed. Do you disagree with that? Or do you believe the kingdom hasn't come, and that God won't forgive us unless we forgive first?

 

[holo]

So the Lord's prayer is nullified. Nothing is safe, even if it is from the sermon on the mount.

The sermon on the mount was also given under the law and in the old covenant. The jews thought that they were more or less justified since they thought they kept the law. On the sermon on the mount and in many other instances, Jesus made it abundantly clear what the law actually demands - perfection, like God is perfect. In other words, if you would be justified by keeping the law, simply refraining from murder wouldn't do the trick. No, you'd have to bless and pray for your enemies and turn the other cheek. And doing "pretty good" won't cut it - you'd have rip out your eye if it led you to sin!

A lot of Jesus' ministry was about setting the jews straight about the law, because just like christians are doing today, they watered it down and believed that not only could it be kept, but that they were in fact keeping it!

The new covenant is made in the blood of Christ and started with His death, not with His birth.

 

[WarriorAngel]

the point is it's prescribed. If you're going to worship, you MUST do it this way. Same as we did last week. If you're going to worship in church, this is how it MUST be done.

EXACTLY!!!

There is only ONE way to consecrate the Eucharist... and then again there are several different ways to lead to that.

O, and the psalms and the readings and the Gospel [etc] are all read or sung from the Bible...[and always different BTW] so you have an issue with singing from the Bible?

Or perhaps praying with others?
Or perhaps receiving the Eucharist [Christ]?
Or maybe singing Alleluia?
Perhaps the Hosanna in the Highest part bothers you?

Which 'part' of the Liturgy bothers you the most?
The kneeling while praying?

Why Do Catholics Bounce On One Knee?

Here is the Catholic Mass...please point out the worst part or parts.

 

[Theophorus]

Nope, I didn't say it was nullified. I said some things have changed. Do you disagree with that? Or do you believe the kingdom hasn't come, and that God won't forgive us unless we forgive first?

I believe the atonement of Christ reaches back before His birth. I believe that the mystery of forgiveness is in that prayer. I believe that prayer does not earn our salvation.

I believe, at the very least, Christ gave us that prayer as a gift. I believe that prayer is full of grace because it came from God Himself.

 

[Uphill Battle]

EXACTLY!!!

There is only ONE way to consecrate the Eucharist... and then again there are several different ways to lead to that.

O, and the psalms and the readings and the Gospel [etc] are all read or sung from the Bible...[and always different BTW] so you have an issue with singing from the Bible?

Or perhaps praying with others?
Or perhaps receiving the Eucharist [Christ]?
Or maybe singing Alleluia?
Perhaps the Hosanna in the Highest part bothers you?

Which 'part' of the Liturgy bothers you the most?
The kneeling while praying?

Why Do Catholics Bounce On One Knee?

Here is the Catholic Mass...please point out the worst part or parts.

yep. Exactly what I was talking about.

scripted start to finish. And don't you know, it's the ONLY way it's supposed to be done.

 

[holdon]

Which 'part' of the Liturgy bothers you the most?

The religion part.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

So liturgy=religion.
Religion=bad
Making it up as you go='spirit-filled.'
Why not throw out bible?
It is the shared, pre-written prayers and words of the people.

I despise the pretenses of the pseudo-spiritual- that's my opinion, since we're sharing.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Actually, it appears that the Lord's prayer belongs to the old covenant, so it's really a shame that people repeat it today, without even thinking about what has changed since Jesus taught it. For example, "forgive us our debts as we have also forigven our debtors" - the fact is that on this side of the cross, God already has forgiven us. He did that while we were still sinners and His enemies! In the new covenant, we don't forgive in order to have the Lord forgive us - we forgive because He already HAS forgiven us!

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Also, "thy kingdom come..." - it has come! It is in us and among us!

So we can't just copy something Jesus said and assume that we can apply it to this covenant and this day and age, and to this side of the cross. So no, the Lord's prayer is hardly "safe enough"

Wow- that's the way- throw out what the Creator of the Universe said in regards to how to pray.

I'm amazed and appaled at the lengths that some will go to in order to pop up their winds of doctrine.

I'll stick with the Gospel, thanks.

 

[holdon]

So liturgy=religion.
Religion=bad
Making it up as you go='spirit-filled.'
Why not throw out bible?
It is the shared, pre-written prayers and words of the people.

I despise the pretenses of the pseudo-spiritual- that's my opinion, since we're sharing.

Stick to your own well sown fig leaves if you want. They won't give you peace.

Man from the beginning has endeavored to do his best: it's all rubbish for God.

You can try to make the nicest liturgy, sing the nicest songs, the nicest music, smell the nicest incense, have the nicest icons, the nicest buildings, the most historic sites perhaps, true relics, do miracles, throw out demons, etc...
it won't help you one bit....

Go to the Hindus, or to the tribes in Africa, they have the same stuff.... It's called religion.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Greetings!!! What is the closest greek word used in the NT/NC for "liturgy" and is it shown in it? Just curious.

Hi LLoJ:
Look at Acts 13:1 and 2, in the Greek. You will find the prophets and teachers doing the liturgy, the leiturgeon ("ministring to the Lord")

 

[Theophorus]

The religion part.

The scripture parts?

The reading of psalms, the Lord's prayer.

The reading of the gospels, or the prayers in general?

 

[WarriorAngel]

yep. Exactly what I was talking about.

scripted start to finish. And don't you know, it's the ONLY way it's supposed to be done.

In this way, we do as the Lord wants...
As He always wanted.

Again, which part is an offense?
The praising the Lord, the Readings, the Gospel, The prayers, the singing psalms??

FWIW, this is why the Church is in Communion...we know and pray together as One.

You can have what you like, but its spontaneous and unplanned by the Apostles.

And I KNOW the EO have a copy of St James liturgy hanging aorund somewhere..
So its not like the Churches made up liturgy...especially when its so similar to the synagogue.

Well, except we have Christ in the liturgy, the Jews do not.

 

[holdon]

The scripture parts?

The reading of psalms, the Lord's prayer.

The reading of the gospels, or the prayers in general?

Oh we all know that anybody can sing and pray, read the gospels, even know entire portions of Scripture by heart. Yet it is entirely possible that their hearts are far from God. Mt 15:8

 

[Theophorus]

Stick to your own well sown fig leaves if you want. They won't give you peace.

Man from the beginning has endeavored to do his best: it's all rubbish for God.

You can try to make the nicest liturgy, sing the nicest songs, the nicest music, smell the nicest incense, have the nicest icons, the nicest buildings, the most historic sites perhaps, true relics, do miracles, throw out demons, etc...
it won't help you one bit....

Go to the Hindus, or to the tribes in Africa, they have the same stuff.... It's called religion.

If you are against "religion", then maybe you should be an atheist. Christianity is a religion.

 

[holdon]

If you are against "religion", then maybe you should be an atheist. Christianity is a religion.

I would have hoped that you would know the difference between religion and true worship of God. Apparently you don't?