you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

holdon · Mar 15, 2008

OrthodoxyUSA said:
Just because worship is spiritual does not leave it without a physical context.

When you pray do you not bow? Is every knee to bend or not?

Forgive me...

It seems you might be addicted to the physical context. When the disciples asked Jesus: "teach us how to pray", did He say: bow down or "not this way, bow down some more". When would one have bowed down enough?? Till one is flat on their belly? And why is it that the priests and pastors in churches don't bow when they address God?

And those in wheelchairs: is their prayer not valid?

You see what problems you get into if want to give some importance to the "physical context"....

Asinner · Mar 15, 2008

holdon said:
It seems you might be addicted to the physical context. When the disciples asked Jesus: "teach us how to pray", did He say: bow down or "not this way, bow down some more". When would one have bowed down enough?? Till one is flat on their belly? And why is it that the priests and pastors in churches don't bow when they address God?

And those in wheelchairs: is their prayer not valid?

You see what problems you get into if want to give some importance to the "physical context"....

It is not either or, but both. Jesus Christ is Spiritual and Physical, God and Man.

Love,
Christina

benedictaoo · Mar 15, 2008

Theophorus said:
I just finished a book also. I doubt it is circulated much around non denom and protestant circles. It's called The Medieval Manichee.

And I don't really mean to offend anyone as that is not my intent, but it really resounded with me and my experiences. It clarified several things in my mind, but it eventually came to this.

Most modern worship is not worship, but fellowship and propaganda.

I saw how worship evolved from the synagogue, and the pattern of worship was kept even from the tabernacle. It was mystical, reverent, and deeply spiritual, but now has become an excersise in debate and logic, individualistic, and even gnostic in certain aspects.

I'm sure you and others disagree, but I just felt the need to answer this OP.

brilliant response.

Got to love relativism. It makes everyone right and what everyone believes true.

benedictaoo · Mar 15, 2008

WarriorAngel said:
Maybe someone mentioned this, because i didnt read the thread...

BUT the liturgy is older than the Apostles...in fact the liturgy is from the Jewish worshipping.

So it is an ancient...very ancient form of Worship which is proper, to the Lord.

Now, i think perhaps knowing this, you will have a new insight on the Liturgy.

God Bless.

And Jesus said, I have not come to do away with but to fulfill.

There you have it. Scripture proof.

WarriorAngel · Mar 15, 2008

Modern worship is more fellowshipping and prayer in a group.
A sort of Bible study with a teacher.

It is not in keeping the actual litugical worship that has been here as long as the Bible gives us the synagogue.

OrthodoxyUSA · Mar 15, 2008

holdon said:
It seems you might be addicted to the physical context. When the disciples asked Jesus: "teach us how to pray", did He say: bow down or "not this way, bow down some more". When would one have bowed down enough?? Till one is flat on their belly? And why is it that the priests and pastors in churches don't bow when they address God?

And those in wheelchairs: is their prayer not valid?

You see what problems you get into if want to give some importance to the "physical context"....

See what problems you get into when you divorce the spiritual from the physical?

You don't know what goes on in Divine Liturgy do you? You've never been have you?

Your post gives you away.

May I ask you...

Is Christ God both God and Man? Both physical and spiritual? Intertwined. Inseperable. Eternal.

Forgive me...

benedictaoo · Mar 15, 2008

WarriorAngel said:
Well, UHB..
Go to a Jewish Synagogue worship [Saturday], then go to a Liturgy [Sunday]...
You will find them reminscent of one another.

Oh but the argument is, that is OC, we are NC.

Okay, wy then is the OT is our cannon?

The only way we are going to understand the NT is to look to all the unfolding prefigures in the OT.

The way we worship now, in spirit and in truth is through the evolving prefigured OT that Christ came to fulfill.

HE is now the offering we offer to God.

You can read Hebrews and Hebrews explains it all.

The OT was never replaced, it was fulfilled.

benedictaoo · Mar 15, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
given the response, I'm REALLY regretting saying anything about this.

and you should and you want to know why?

The audacity that you read some book written by some guy and you have concluded definitively in spite of all other testimony, that 2000 years of history is wrong because this guy showed you the way.

holdon · Mar 15, 2008

OrthodoxyUSA said:
See what problems you get into when you divorce the spiritual from the physical?

No.

You don't know what goes on in Divine Liturgy do you? You've never been have you?

Never been impressed, no.

Your post gives you away.

Good thing.

May I ask you...

Is Christ God both God and Man? Both physical and spiritual? Intertwined. Inseperable. Eternal.

Yes. And what has that to do with Liturgy???

Liturgy = Judaism

OrthodoxyUSA · Mar 15, 2008

holdon said:
Liturgy = Judaism

Incorrect.

Forgive me...

Asinner · Mar 15, 2008

holdon said:
No. Never been impressed, no. Good thing. Yes. And what has that to do with Liturgy???

The Liturgy is an expression of the Holy Trinity, in which Jesus Christ, the God-Man is forever enthroned; therefore, this expression is Physical and Spiritual.

Love,
Christina

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 15, 2008

Originally Posted by holdon

Liturgy = Judaism

I myself have always felt the RCC and Orthodox both practiced a form of "gentile Judaism".
For instance Incense and Pope being a type of High Priest to name a few.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I am giving out of the synagogue of the Satan/Adversary, to the ones saying selves Judeans to-be and not they are, but they are falsifying.
Behold, I shall be making them that they should be arriving/hxwsin <2240> (5661), and they shall be worshipping before the feet of You, and they may be knowing that I Love You.

Asinner · Mar 15, 2008

LittleLambofJesus said:
I myself have always felt

Not a good way to begin a sentence.

benedictaoo · Mar 15, 2008

Liturgy = Judaism= Christianity.

Christianity is the completion and fulfillment of Judaism.

That's why Jesus said on the cross, the passover Lamb said, It is finished.

It is complete now, the liturgy, the worship, the offering, the sacrifice. It all finished now. Complete and never done away with??!!??

THIS is the new and everlasting covenant. THIS is how we worship now for all ages until Christ comes again. THIS is the heavenly worship that comes to us in the Mass.

This is it... it's finished, the Jews who never accepted Christ, their still waiting for the end to be written.

But this is it, this is Jesus, our Lord.

OrthodoxyUSA · Mar 15, 2008

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RMo1kTtZaA

Forgive me...

CaDan · Mar 15, 2008

People create orders of worship. From the simplest, most traditional silent Friends meeting to the most elaborate Liturgy of St. James in Jerusalem.

LittleLambofJesus · Mar 15, 2008

Asinner said:
Not a good way to begin a sentence.

Well, I can't speak for everyone and someone just happened to mention it. I just happened to have a word study on "arriving" in conjunction with "Judaism". Peace

Luke 19:41 And as He nears, beholding the City and He laments on Her,
42 saying, "That if thou-knew, and thou, even indeed in the day, this, the toward Peace of thee, now yet it was Hid from thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving/hxousin <2240> (5692) days upon thee and thy enemies shall be about-casting upon thee seige-works/caraka <5482> to thee and they shall be about-compassing/peri-kuklwsousin <4033> (5692) thee, and they shall be pressing thee every-which-place"

benedictaoo · Mar 15, 2008

Matthew 23:37

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Asinner · Mar 15, 2008

CaDan said:
People create orders of worship. From the simplest, most traditional silent Friends meeting to the most elaborate Liturgy of St. James in Jerusalem.

Beware of the Friends! Someone posted that a long time ago when I was researching the Quakers.

christianmomof3 · Mar 15, 2008

WarriorAngel said:
Well, UHB..
Go to a Jewish Synagogue worship [Saturday], then go to a Liturgy [Sunday]...
You will find them reminscent of one another.

That is very true. I grew up Jewish and have been to Reform, Conservative and Orthodox Jewish services. There is not a lot of difference in the three really.
And, I have also been to Catholic and Lutheran churches. I have not ever been to an Orthodox one.
But, the Catholic and Lutheran "services" are very similar to the Jewish ones.
However, is that what Christ wanted?
I don't think so.
He came to give Life!
His goal was not to just have people continue in the Jewish practices, but to have people open their hearts to Him and take Him in as our Life!
Jesus's entire living was one that was outside of the normal Jewish religion. He was not born in Jerusalem, where the temple, holy priesthood and seat of the Jewish religion were.
He was not found by religious Jews, but by pagans who followed a heavenly star.
His ministry was not started in Jerusalem, but outside of it baptised by John who wore camels hair and did many other things that were against the laws of the Jewish religion.
The first people to follow Him were not priests and scribes, but Galilean fishermen.
When His followers became religious, He presented them with Life rather than with religion.
He feasted with the sinners, not with the scribes and pharisees.

His goal is not and was not to continue a religion, but to be our life. His ultimate goal is the New Jerusalem.
In the new heavens and new earth, there will not be any religion. There will not be Catholicism or Orthodoxy or Protestantism or Judaism or paganism.
There will only be Christ!

you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it.

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