you'll hate this thread, I guarantee it. (2)

Montalban · Mar 23, 2008

holo said:
I don't agree with your "demonstration from the bible".

I know you don't. All you do is say that you don't.

You've not argued why you think the verses I cited have nothing to do with tithing. You've had ample opportnity to, but you simply prefer to say "No it's not".

holo said:
I think you're mixing an old OT practice of tithing up with the NT idea of caring for the poor and sustaining the apostles economically.

Based on your say so. The church took money from the community as it does today to support enterprises.

Most New Testament discussion serves to promote giving over tithing. 2 Corinthians 9:7 talks about giving cheerfully; 2 Corinthians 8:3 encourages giving what you can afford; 1 Corinthians 16:2 discusses giving weekly; 1 Timothy 5:18 exhorts supporting the financial needs of Christian workers; Act 11:29 promotes feeding the hungry wherever they may be; and James 1:27 states that pure religion is to help widows and orphans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithes#Tithing_in_the_New_Testament

Please cite evidence that you are correct.

holo said:
Anything can, and has been, argued from the bible.

Another of your trade-mark truisms

holo said:
Including slavery and nazism. They are poor arguments, though, and IMO they are easily refuted.

Refuted? Based on what? You claimed that Paul supported slavery, now you argue against this.

holo said:
But most anything can be labelled "biblical". Every single denomination on Earth argues from the bible. So the question is, what is the best and most correct way to interpret it. I'm not saying every interpretation is equally valid.

Okay then, why's yours more valid. Please cite Biblical evidence to show that it is.

holo said:
Well don't blame me, because I never offered that argument...

Yes you did. You said anyone can interpret the Bible. You argued that their were flaws in it, one of them being slavery. Now you say that people use the bible to prove it, but it's easily refutable.

holo said:
Actually I don't. This isn't a war anyway, I'm just asking you why you believe the things you do.

Then read the threads.
a) the Church put the Bible together.
b) the bible doesn't say it contains all of what Jesus said or did.
These are points I've made quite a bit

holo said:
Some arguments I may agree with, some arguments I may oppose. I'm not trying to put you on trial here.

Show me, based on the Bible why your interpretation is correct.

holo said:
I've never rejected the bible.

Yes, you say it is flawed.

Montalban · Mar 23, 2008

Templedweller said:
follow not the traditions of man The Pharisees thought they were a okay before God Jesus rebuked them, pulled down their money tables and would not follow the traditions of men like wash your hands this and that certain way before eating...they were offended by Jesus radical disregaurd of Rules of Men

Where did the Pharisees venerate Mary?

Can you answer the question I previously put to you?

Rick Otto · Mar 22, 2008

disasm said:
Our Father, who art in Heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done
On Earth as it is in Heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from the evil one.

I'd be surprised to find a Christian that hasn't prayed this at least once.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me the sinner.

How many times do we need to repeat it to complete a rosary? How many rosaries wash away a sin of willful ignorance?

Montalban · Mar 23, 2008

There's a special unity though here amongst Protestants as all those who cherish the Bible have ignored Holo saying the Bible is flawed.

Rick Otto · Mar 23, 2008

Montalban said:
Where did the Pharisees venerate Mary?

The same place they made icons.
You are desperately stretching , Monty.
Something can be in the bible, like rape is therefore "biblical", but that doesn't make it an approved practice.
Verses having "something to do with tithing" do not establish & approve that Levitical law as a NT norm.

The slavery Paul addressed was voluntary or financialy caused, not racist imperialism. Slavery then & there was not what we think of as slavery here at the end of the 21st century.

the bible doesn't say it contains all of what Jesus said or did.

The Bible doesn't even contain all of scripture, & yet IT is profitable for doctrine, IT is profitable for reproof, correction, & for instruction in righteousness . Nothing essential was left out.

By the way, where in the Bible does it say you should only follow the Bible?

It is spelled out quite explicitly in the illustrated example of the Bereans verifying apostolic verity by examining the prophecies and truths of the OT scriptures they had.
The example isn't about "only following the bible", which is a phrase that attempts to over-broaden the intent of relying only on the scriptures for authoritative moral, spiritual truths that either affirm or reprove & correct messages we get from men & traditions. That phrase makes it sound like we don't wipe our butts because nobody in the bible does.

You've just continued like others here to give an opinion that seems to suggest you're your own pope; declaring for yourself what to keep, what to discard.

I AM my own "Pope". EVERYONE is "their own Pope", if they have a functioning ego & conscience.
EVERYONE decides for themselves what & who to believe. That is how we are individualy responsible for ourselves. Even if we declare we believe whatever "The Church" teaches, it is our own conscious decision to do so.There is no escape, nor should their be, from "being our own Pope".
In my Papcy tho, I lose the props & costumes, fancy titles, burdensome beaurocracy, delusions of infallibility, etc... and just try & stay with truths, the larger as well as the immediate & practical.

Montalban · Mar 23, 2008

Venerate is not the same as worship

Uphill Battle · Mar 23, 2008

Montalban said:
You said you didn't just rely on Scripture to know that you should only rely upon scripture. I don't recall you saying what this other thing was. But what you've said is just illogical anyway.

because you didn't pay attention. That's not my problem.

No. You only have to open your eyes to the illogic of the arguments presented from Protestants.

Holo argues against Orthodox traditions but then says anyone can interpret anything out of the Bible anyway, thus refuting his own arguments against Orthodoxy - to which he offers no proofs from the Bible - 'cause he doesn't believe its infallible anyway - based on mistakes he can't evidence either.

Sunlover says the Bible is infallible, but only it is. Yet there's evidence from the Bible that Paul relied on oral teachings. In fact it's logical that what he taught himself he taught orally before he wrote it down. THus it was fallible when he spoke it, but infallible when he wrote it down.

what they say is what they say. You can [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] and moan about it if you want, I don't care.

You yourself continaully appeal to incredulity and make emotive statements, referring to some other evidence you've spoken about somewhere else.

These arguments, confused as they are, are the result of Protestantism. Once you remove yourself from the Church Jesus established you can come up with all sorts of strange, novel, and contradictory beliefs.

That I alert you to this, you call arrogant. I actually call stubborness in the face of truth willful arrogance.

If you can cite any evidence to show why you rely only on scripture please do so.

I've done so. I've stated, that only scripture is trustworthy, and proven itself so.

again, if you can't understand that, it's not my problem, it's yours.

benedictaoo said:
Memorialists? I liked for you to be brought into the fullness of what that means, UpHill.

uh huh.

That's because there is so much to Catholicism that you don't yet understand. It's authenticity will depend on each person and their relationship with the Lord.

The same can be said for any prayer. It's two way communication, you have to be authentic with God no matter what words you pray.

The words don't make or break you, it's your heart. That's what Jesus was teaching us. He wasn't condemning ppl who said certain words or how many times. He was condemning the ones whose heart was not into it, whose heart was far from Him.

and neither do I condemn them. I feel I was quite clear on this matter.

For me, the prayers are beneficial because of the theology. Take St. Francis' prayer, go through this prayer and meditate on it because there is profound truth in it that is transforming.

Just go through it and meditate on it.

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

It has taken me a few years to fully get the impact and truth of this prayer.

It's another prayer teaching us of the Divine Mercy of God.

Take the first line, "Lord, make me an instrument of your peace"

Jesus is our High Priest who has rose from the dead who has blessed us with God's name, who has made our peace with Him and who brings us God's peace.

So we meditate on that, Lord, make me an instrument of your peace,

We all should pray this, we all should want to be able to bring the peace Jesus won for us to others, we all should be made an instrument of the peace of Jesus.

Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood as to understand;
to be loved as to love.

For it is in giving that we receive;
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life

This prayer when said from the heart can change a person from being unholy into being holy. Why? The heart sees that God is mercy and we are made perfect by being merciful. Lord, make me an instrument of your peace... is a prayer from the heart.

Just think if everyone prayed this from the heart... the world would change. God would give us all the grace to change.

I don't use others prayer. I think I stated that already.

Well, that is your interpretation that you accept from the invisible lose bodied magisterium of Protestantism, of Protestant tradition that you were taught.

you think? you'd be wrong.

But there is certainly nothing wrong with praying the words of Jesus, is there? No, of course not and for a sola scripturist, there isn't anything in scripture that says you can't pray his very words, so why not pray them?

everything is permitted. not everything is beneficial. Again, I didn't say it was wrong. I said, if it were ME that did it, it would be wrong. I would be violating my concience in the matter.

Again, it is a prayer that when one meditates on it, it can have a life changing impact if prayed from the heart.

So singing can't be praying? Umm, the bible says we are to make a joyful noise unto the Lord and Augustine said when we sing, we pray twice.

thats a nice sentiment Augustine had. Don't see how it applies to me.

I really don't think there is a whole lot of merit to be found in this criticism. I'm sure many Protestants don't have an issue with praying in song (it's called Praise and Worship and it's a prayer none the less) a psalm or even singing it as a prayer.

If you sung it, then you prayed even more deeply, as long as your heart was in it.

nah. I feel there is a difference.

If you have read scripture, any verse Uphill, and entered into the presence of God, allowed God to speak to you in His word then you have used scripture as a prayer. It's called meditation.

if you say so.

Okay... deflection... alright.

Now back to the point. Jesus prayed a psalm from the cross. So right there. There shouldn't be any further criticism or debate.

"My God, my God why have you abandon me..." it was from a psalm. So that pretty much ends this debate.

it was a fulfilment of prophecy. Last time I checked, I wasn't called upon to fulfill prophecy.

benedictaoo said:
You're asking folks to face a truth they are not ready or willing to face.

They know it doesn't make any sense logically but Catholicism and Orthodoxy can't possibly be right so illogical trumps, it is their rational.

as soon as Catholicism and Orthodoxy start calling each other "right" your point would have merit. Until then, can the hypocricy.

Montalban said:
So far UphillBattle's main argument is based on repeating a few statements "You just don't understand me", or "I can't be bothered answering you".

no, it's more along the lines of "you're chosing not to get it." You have your head jammed full of "we got it all right" and therefore, everyone else must be wrong. I will admit though, I am losing interest in explaining what it is that I'm ACTUALLY saying, instead of what spin you'd like to put on it.

Rick Otto said:
In their (adjective edited for those who lack a sense of tongue-in-cheek humor)) little hearts, all Jewish boys worship their mother.
Monty, you didn't have to report me, I would've edited at your own request.
(Unless it was squint, the only other guy on this thread right now, & I doubt that).

you can expect it whenever you DARE say something that will tweak their pride.

benedictaoo · Mar 22, 2008

Woe uphill, is all I can say.. is woe. Why don't you think you can take a theologically correct prayer or scripture and mediate on it??

I wish you would oblige me and just try it- it's a wonderful way to pray and enter into the Lords presence. There is so much waiting for you there.

Are you okay? Are you going through some rough times faith wise?

benedictaoo · Mar 23, 2008

everything is permitted. not everything is beneficial. Again, I didn't say it was wrong. I said, if it were ME that did it, it would be wrong. I would be violating my concience in the matter.

oh and watch out for relativism.

benedictaoo · Mar 23, 2008

everything is permitted. not everything is beneficial. Again, I didn't say it was wrong. I said, if it were ME that did it, it would be wrong. I would be violating my concience in the matter.

oh and watch out for relativism.

Uphill Battle · Mar 22, 2008

benedictaoo said:
oh and watch out for relativism.

you might want to biblegateway "everything is permitted."

Uphill Battle · Mar 23, 2008

benedictaoo said:
oh and watch out for relativism.

you might want to biblegateway "everything is permitted."

benedictaoo · Mar 22, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
you might want to biblegateway "everything is permitted."

Everything is permitted? Really now... It's relativism UPHill, don't fool yourself.

Again are you going through something?

benedictaoo · Mar 23, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
you might want to biblegateway "everything is permitted."

Everything is permitted? Really now... It's relativism UPHill, don't fool yourself.

Again, are you going through something?

benedictaoo · Mar 23, 2008

Templedweller said:
As a non catholic I am asking why we ought to venerate or worship her have statuetes of her I havent ever had a Catholic answer that straight out

Becuase it pleases God.

Uphill Battle · Mar 23, 2008

benedictaoo said:
Everything is permitted? Really now... It's relativism UPHill, don't fool yourself.

Again, are you going through something?

nope. I'm fine.

did you look up the passage? Or do you need me to find it for you like last time?

Uphill Battle · Mar 23, 2008

benedictaoo said:
Everything is permitted? Really now... It's relativism UPHill, don't fool yourself.

Again, are you going through something?

nope. I'm fine.

did you look up the passage? Or do you need me to find it for you like last time?

benedictaoo · Mar 23, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
nope. I'm fine.

did you look up the passage? Or do you need me to find it for you like last time?

I know the passage and as usual, your infallible self interpretation of looking at it through the lens of the invisible Protestant magisterium is at play here.

Everything permitted but not beneficial in context means what UB? That if you want to disagree with something that has been 2000 years proven to be beneficial- you can just chuck it?

No, you don't have to pray the Catholic way to be saved, but you do have to pray, I hope you agree there.

But the growth and the presence of our Lord can be truly realized through this way of praying and that is from the heart no matter how you pray. This can even lead non Christians to salvtion if they pray to the God of their understating from the heart.

So I have no clue how it is you think the bible teaches that our prayer style is not beneficial. Or that it's subjective, that it is beneficial for some but not for all.

That is absurd UB, the way we pray, can benefit you immensely but you are closed minded. Oh well.

And to say that something good can be beneficial to some but not so for another? Oh come on with the relativism.

Paul is not talking about the way Catholics pray. He is talking about things that are not sinful but that aren't beneficial. Like gambling- it is not sinful in itself but it sure as heck is not beneficial, you can get hooked and that can be sinful.

benedictaoo · Mar 22, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
nope. I'm fine.

did you look up the passage? Or do you need me to find it for you like last time?

I know the passage and as usual, your infallible self interpretation of looking at it through the lens of the invisible Protestant magisterium is at play here.

Everything permitted but not beneficial in context means what UB? That if you want to disagree with something that has been 2000 years proven to be beneficial- you can just chuck it?

No, you don't have to pray the Catholic way to be saved, but you do have to pray, I hope you agree there.

But the growth and the presence of our Lord can be truly realized through this way of praying and that is from the heart no matter how you pray. This can even lead non Christians to salvtion if they pray to the God of their understating from the heart.

So I have no clue how it is you think the bible teaches that our prayer style is not beneficial. Or that it's subjective, that it is beneficial for some but not for all.

That is absurd UB, the way we pray, can benefit you immensely but you are closed minded. Oh well.

And to say that something good can be beneficial to some but not so for another? Oh come on with the relativism.

Paul is not talking about the way Catholics pray. He is talking about things that are not sinful but that aren't beneficial. Like gambling- it is not sinful in itself but it sure as heck is not beneficial, you can get hooked and that can be sinful.

And I do sense something going on in you. You are having difficulties, aren't you?

benedictaoo · Mar 23, 2008

Uphill Battle said:
nope. I'm fine.

did you look up the passage? Or do you need me to find it for you like last time?

I know the passage and as usual, your infallible self interpretation of looking at it through the lens of the invisible Protestant magisterium is at play here.

Everything permitted but not beneficial in context means what UB? That if you want to disagree with something that has been 2000 years proven to be beneficial- you can just chuck it?

No, you don't have to pray the Catholic way to be saved, but you do have to pray, I hope you agree there.

But the growth and the presence of our Lord can be truly realized through this way of praying and that is from the heart no matter how you pray. This can even lead non Christians to salvtion if they pray to the God of their understating from the heart.

So I have no clue how it is you think the bible teaches that our prayer style is not beneficial. Or that it's subjective, that it is beneficial for some but not for all.

That is absurd UB, the way we pray, can benefit you immensely but you are closed minded. Oh well.

And to say that something good can be beneficial to some but not so for another? Oh come on with the relativism.

Paul is not talking about the way Catholics pray. He is talking about things that are not sinful but that aren't beneficial. Like gambling- it is not sinful in itself but it sure as heck is not beneficial, you can get hooked and that can be sinful.

And I do sense something going on in you. You are having difficulties, aren't you?

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