You shall not murder.

[Jon]

Exodus 20:13
You shall not murder.

Now what if someone puts a gun to your head, can you murder then?

Or if someone just killed a billion people, dose that give you the right to kill them?

 

[XT4J]

Vengence is the Lord's.

As for the gun to your head...i dont know much you can do without getting your head blown off.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

You can use deadly force to protect yourself or your someone else. If someone has a gun to your head and the only way to get out of it alive is you killing them, then that is what you must do.

 

[YouthPastor]

"murder" the hebrew word refers to innocent lives.

So to protect your self/your family - you would be ok.

it is called justifiable homocide in our legal system.

 

[pax]

I agree with what JefferyLloyd said. If someone threatens your life or that of another and the only alternative is to use a lethal force to kill the attacker, it can be done without committing a sin. As far as capital punishment goes, I would say that if a person still poses a threat to society within a maximum security prison it would be okay to use capital punishment. With modern prisons I believe capital punishment should be used far less often than it is.

 

[Shyguyelite]

The New King James Version

Proverbs 6:12-19

12 A worthless person, a wicked man, Walks with a perverse mouth; 13 He winks with his eyes, He shuffles his feet, He points with his fingers; 14 Perversity is in his heart, He devises evil continually, He sows discord. 15 Therefore his calamity shall come suddenly; Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy. 16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood

There is a distinction I believe. But what did Jesus mean when he said

Matthew 5:38-42

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' F23 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.

Sure, the Christ didn't say "Whoever kills you on your right cheek, offer him your left", but does say "Not to resist an evil person".

Interesting dicotomoy. However, I believe for some reason that its alright to defend yourself, if you are indeed innocent blood. We all control our fate to some degree, and if God wants you dead, trust me, he'll have you dead like it or not. Yet we all have a will to survive... yet even unbelievers have a will to survive.

Yet it is said

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." F54 55 "O Death, where is your sting? F55 O Hades, where is your victory?" F56 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So through Christ we are almost suppose to be inhuman, to a degree, although God of course made us human. OK never mind.

Yet if someone had a gun to my face, I would probably try to trick him. I would probably just comply with his orders, but if I felt like I could get him, I would pull a simple mind trick. "Say, do you have a wife?" or "OK, so what did you have for breakfast?". The instant his mind tries to comprehend is the moment you strike.

Of course its probably alot harder to do in real life. But this technique is based on the assumption that the person who is holding you at gun point does not want to kill you, or else he would have already. Duh. So if you have a pyscho at your door... well pray to God.

In short, I suggest praying to the Lord before countering anything. It may be your time, or it may be just a random thug. Pray to God, and his will will be done. If you trust in your own power or quickness, you will probably die.

 

[HeatherJay]

I think the sin of murder comes from the intent in your heart. If your heart is full of wickedness or anger or hate...this is when it's wrong to kill. Obviously there were all kinds of killings going on in the OT...wars and orders from God Himself. The only times we see it being a sin in the eyes of God is when it's done with hatefulness in the heart (i.e. Cain and Abel). I think self defense is not a sin. As far as a man and wife go, the man is to give his life to protect his wife...I would assume that this includes killing the person who would harm her if necessary.

Love, Heather

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

You can use deadly force to protect yourself or your someone else. If someone has a gun to your head and the only way to get out of it alive is you killing them, then that is what you must do.

I'm not convinced that one must do so. Is there not a specific group of martyrs who are so because they prefered to witness to the grace of Christ through not resisting and being killed?

 

[super slug]

What about when your 12 year old daughter is being raped but chances are not killed, can you then blow the rapist away in hate and anger and it not be a sin.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

What about when your 12 year old daughter is being raped but chances are not killed, can you then blow the rapist away in hate and anger and it not be a sin.

No. Hate and anger are always wrong, although sometimes more understandable than others.

 

[super slug]

Ok then can I blow him away in love, with a prayer for his salvation.

(i know this sounds a bit flippant, but I just wonder!)

 

[Annabel Lee]

What about when your 12 year old daughter is being raped but chances are not killed, can you then blow the rapist away in hate and anger and it not be a sin.

I have no idea whether it is a sin or not but what kind of parent would not come to the aid of their child? A criminally negligent one.

Blow the rapist away.

 

[HeatherJay]

I agree that if I saw anyone hurting my child, my first reaction would be to probably kill the person doing it. Funny how you can be a completely peaceful, passive person your whole life, but the second you hold your baby, you realize that you would do ANYTHING to protect them...you realize the reason that people kill and go to war. I would hope that God would give me strength to control my hate and anger toward that person...but who knows unless you're in the situation.


There was a woman whose story was on the news around here. She was an older lady who had been a Sunday school teacher her whole life...had fostered children...taken in runaways...basically been a pure and giving soul her whole life, completely devoted to Christ. She was murdered...brutally beaten to death by her next door neighbor...a younger troubled girl, involved in drugs, etc. In her dying breaths, she forgave the young girl. Now, that's the kind of peace with Christ we should strive for, I think.

Love, Heather

 

[Inspired]

"murder" the hebrew word refers to innocent lives.

So to protect your self/your family - you would be ok.

it is called justifiable homocide in our legal system.

Ok I don't want to turn this into a debate so please don't take it that way, I too am curious about this.

I was under the impressioned that what our legal system's view on laws and crime, murder included, had no bearing on the bible and what God's view on the situation was.

umm let me make sure I am making this clear, ok Adultry.
Say we as a country passed a law making adultry legal, that wouldn't change the bible's view on it right?
Abortion is legal to some extent now, but that hasn't changed the way many Christians say God feels about it.

So is there any scripture that says there is a time that it is ok to kill another human being?

And Heather I agree, I am not sure I couldn't stop myself from defending a child, a loved one or any innocent victim, even if it meant i would have to end someone's life, though afterwards, I don't know if I would be able to live with myself.

 

[Krazeekkc]

I believe it is wrong to murder someone unless you do out of self-defense. But I do not believe it is wrong to kill a murderer. An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth.

 

[Rising_Suns]

hey inspired,
i'll try taking a crack at your questions....

I was under the impressioned that what our legal system's view on laws and crime, murder included, had no bearing on the bible and what God's view on the situation was.

umm let me make sure I am making this clear, ok Adultry.
Say we as a country passed a law making adultry legal, that wouldn't change the bible's view on it right?
Abortion is legal to some extent now, but that hasn't changed the way many Christians say God feels about it.

The bible also tells us to abide by the law of the land, generall speaking. But if the law of the land is in direct conflict with the bible, then you listen to the bible (seeing it is our final authority). So if a country made adultry legal, it is still against the bible and considered wrong. Same with abortion. But other laws that are not in conflict with the bible, we are expected to abide by; stealing, sexual misconduct, traffic laws, etc.

So is there any scripture that says there is a time that it is ok to kill another human being?

This is really a hard question to answer because the bible doesn't flat out say one way or the other. The bible makes a distinction between the laws of government, and the individual. It says there will be wars. Wars are inevitable and a part of human life, and the job of our government to protect, and thus killing in self defense (in the governments position) is ok. One can argue that even capitol punishment can be reasoned since it is also a form of self defense, and is not done in malice. Remember, "thou shalt not kill" really translates to; "though shalt not murder"...and murder is unjustly killing, or with hatefull intent.

So in the case of the individual, us Christians should trust in God that He would not allow such a situation to fall upon us, because we all know what most of us would do if someone we dearly love is being hurt by another person and we had to use force to stop them; we would darn use force, and killing could potentially be a result of our using force. In such a case, if our hearts were only set on defense of our loved one and not hatred or malice, I would say it would be fine. Not everything is as black and white as some would like to hope, as I used to hope it was. God works in mysterious ways, beyond which we can comprehend. So you can't judge something soley based on the situation. As was mentioned before, a good judge of "right" or "wrong" is looking within, to the heart, or the true intent behind the action.

 

[pace]

What about when your 12 year old daughter is being raped but chances are not killed, can you then blow the rapist away in hate and anger and it not be a sin.

Depends maybe. You should react to prevent bad things happen, not react in revenge creating more bad things.
But revenge is a technical term afaik, even though you were filled with hate to do the revenge, the action itself is a technical term and thus completely emotionless. Emotions and revenge should be understood seperately to avoid confusion.

If you prevent well in anger, who can say you acted wrongfully ?
Some say that one should think first, and then act. I'm thinking you should also feel first. I'm tempted to think neglecting emotions is worse than any negative emotion can be.

I'm, and probably not the only one, much more unsecure when it comes to the emotions. We should talk more about them so to understand them better and the definitions of them.
I'm close to say something like that: anger is fine, but hate can never be.
Can it be good to prevent in anger? Then it becoms a question of emotions and what they do, not a question of action.

 

[HeatherJay]

Another story from the news around here, exactly the same scenario given above : A father walked in on a man raping his 13 year old daughter. He dragged the man out into his front yard and proceeded to beat the **** out of him. People saw the fight in the yard and the police and paramedics were called (My best friend's husband was one of the paramedics). Both men were arrested, the father for assault, the other for rape of a minor. Now was the father's a sin? Beating his daughters attacker almost to death? I don't know. I do know that the paramedics (who arrived on the scene before the police) were not too quick to end the assault on the rapist. I think it's obviously not Christ like behavior...but it is a human reaction. I suppose the Bible says that our goal is to be like Christ, so maybe the Godly reaction would have been to restrain the rapist until the police arrived, but who of us could say we'd react THAT way? Probably none.

Also, let me add that I sincerely believe that ANYTHING done in hate and anger is most definitely a sin.

Love, Heather

 

[pace]

Jesus reacted in prevention didn't he ? He prevented a battle between the disciples when Peter cut off a soldier's ear by putting it back. But he never did any revenge.
A proposition of Spinoza always pops up with me lately:

(IV)P46: He who lives according to the guidance of reason strives, as far as he can, to repay the other's hate, anger, and disdain toward him, with love, or nobility. - B. Spinoza, Ethics

A thing that was so beautiful with Jesus imo, was that he showed how powerful love is, here Spinoza says that joy is more powerful than sadness.
When you act in love people love you back and it creates a good circle, towards a larger circle. More and more people understands, not necessarily rationally, but empiristicly. There are many things we can't put words on but just have to experience. Even the really powerful (evil) people in Jesus time had a very hard time reacting towards such pure love.
My experience is that when bad people see such huge love they totally break up, they cry or whatever better. This is a part imo what Jesus showed, as he turned sinners and toll people being beautiful disciples at his service.
But noone is beyond sin.

 

[Kookaburra_45]

If it is to protect your self and/or your family, you can, because that is basically, the only option available and I right?