BobRyan

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Matthew 10: 28 is teaching people is that the only person who can judge a human being to not be a living person or living soul for eternity is God.

The text says

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The definition you used in your post is such that it is not true at all that people "can kill the body but not the soul" -- rather by your definition whenever someone kills the body - they have by definition - killed the soul.

Did I miss something?

So it's true that a human being or group of human beings can kill another human being
No doubt.

They can kill the body... so is that killing the soul by your definition or does the soul survive the death of the body in that case?
when put to death by another human being or group of human beings will not be a living soul or living person
When you "don't have a soul" or "don't have a living soul" is it true that they were not "able to kill the soul" in your POV?
Is Christ being accurate in Matt 10:28 in your POV?
the human being that was killed no longer exists as a living soul
Can it be said that they were "not able to kill the soul" in that case?
No human being ... has the ability ... to cause someone to be in nonexistence permanently
So are you changing Matt 10:28 to 'not able to kill the soul permanently" ??

The text says they CAN kill the body but not the soul. Is it your claim that they are killing the body permanently but not killing the soul permanently? If so how would you describe the resurrected bodies of the wicked in Rev 20 at the great white throne judgment??
 
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BobRyan

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The mystery is cleared up when we look at the Hebrew word for soul as it agrees with the Greek word in the NT

Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
.
So then in the Matt 10:28 case you are saying they are "unable to kill the breath of life"? Where "breath of life" is undefined?
 
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Gary K

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So then in the Matt 10:28 case you are saying they are "unable to kill the breath of life"? Where "breath of life" is undefined?
Soul in the NT is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05590
ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'
from 5594;
breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely [the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 05315, 07307 and 02416]:--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

No different than the OT. I would have thought that you as an Adventist would know this. Genesis makes this obvious. God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul. No where does Genesis say a soul was added to man.

Genesis 3: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Soul here is once again translated from nephesh.

[*StrongsHebrew*]
5315
נפשׁ
nephesh neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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The text says

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The definition you used in your post is such that it is not true at all that people "can kill the body but not the soul" -- rather by your definition whenever someone kills the body - they have by definition - killed the soul.

Did I miss something?


No doubt.

They can kill the body... so is that killing the soul by your definition or does the soul survive the death of the body in that case?

When you "don't have a soul" or "don't have a living soul" is it true that they were not "able to kill the soul" in your POV?
Is Christ being accurate in Matt 10:28 in your POV?

Can it be said that they were "not able to kill the soul" in that case?

So are you changing Matt 10:28 to 'not able to kill the soul permanently" ??

The text says they CAN kill the body but not the soul. Is it your claim that they are killing the body permanently but not killing the soul permanently? If so how would you describe the resurrected bodies of the wicked in Rev 20 at the great white throne judgment??
I've said clearly from the scriptures that Matthew 10:28 is teaching people to not fear man who can kill you but can't cause that death to be forever. That's the reason why the scripture says not to fear man who can only kill the body but instead fear the one who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna. That means to fear the person who can destroy you forever in eternal death. I can see for myself that Genesis 2:7 doesn't teach human beings have living souls or living persons in their human bodies, but instead it teaches human beings are living souls or living persons.

So Genesis 2:7 teaches us that if the breath/spirit of life isn't in the flesh and blood human body then the human being is no longer a living soul or living person, because Genesis 2:7 teaches that God took dust from the ground and formed a flesh and blood human body then God blew the breath/spirit of life into that flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person.
So like I said I can see for myself that if a person tries to teach that the breath/spirit of life is a living soul or living person inside the human body I know they will be contradicting Genesis 2:7. We human beings stop being living souls or living persons when the breath/spirit of life isn't in our human bodies.
 
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BobRyan

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The text says

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The definition you used in your post is such that it is not true at all that people "can kill the body but not the soul" -- rather by your definition whenever someone kills the body - they have by definition - killed the soul.
I've said clearly from the scriptures that Matthew 10:28 is teaching people to not fear man who can kill you but can't cause that death to be forever.

It seems we agree on what you are saying " by your definition whenever someone kills the body - they have by definition - killed the soul" you are simply adding "but not forever" to the end of your version, and ignoring the fact that Jesus said they cannot kill the soul at all because "they are unable to kill the soul".

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Where Jesus says "unable to kill the soul" you revise to "able to kill the soul - but not forever, not beyond God's ability to resurrect the soul".


Interesting change.


I assume you accept the bodily resurrection of the wicked in Rev 20 and so you affirm that even though the "body is killed" in this life - yet it comes back in Rev 20. "They can still kill the body" as Matt 10:28 points out -- no matter that it comes back in resurrected form in Rev 20.

So in that context - they "cannot kill the soul' - yet "they can kill the body" in this life. as Jesus points out in Matt 10:28 no matter that the body will later be resurrected. It is still dead. And that is by contrast to the soul in Matt 10:28
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

So then in the Matt 10:28 case you are saying they are "unable to kill the breath of life"? Where "breath of life" is undefined?
Soul in the NT is translated from:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05590
ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'
from 5594;
breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely [the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from 4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from 2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew 05315, 07307 and 02416]:--heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
As in 1 Cor 5 where Paul is "with you in spirit" even when not present. As in all cases - context determines meaning.

1`Cor 5:3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this,

We all know that context determines meaning -- even as SDAs we still know this. So even though "the body without the spirit is dead" James 2:26 -- YET 1 Cor 5 it not talking about Paul dying and his spirit going to some church meeting in Corinth. Because... "context determines meaning".

And yes - SDAs do know this.

No different than the OT. I would have thought that you as an Adventist would know this. Genesis makes this obvious.
Genesis 2 is "yet another context" for the term. In its context it refers to the person. But as 1 Cor 5:3 and Matt 10:28 demonstrate - that Genesis 2 case is not the only context that exists.
God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul.
Indeed - "in that context" - it refers to a person.
 
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Gary K

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As in 1 Cor 5 where Paul is "with you in spirit" even when not present. As in all cases - context determines meaning.

1`Cor 5:3 For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this,

We all know that context determines meaning -- even as SDAs we still know this. So even though "the body without the spirit is dead" James 2:26 -- YET 1 Cor 5 it not talking about Paul dying and his spirit going to some church meeting in Corinth. Because... "context determines meaning".

And yes - SDAs do know this.


Genesis 2 is "yet another context" for the term. In its context it refers to the person. But as 1 Cor 5:3 and Matt 10:28 demonstrate - that Genesis 2 case is not the only context that exists.

Indeed - "in that context" - it refers to a person.
The way I like to think of it is our soul is our personhood. It goes back to God who created us so He can resurrect us.
 
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BobRyan

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The way I like to think of it is our soul is our personhood. It goes back to God who created us so He can resurrect us.
That is one of the definitions that fits a certain context. But notice that is not the meaning of the term in 1 Cor 5 example given above. Paul's "person" was not actually present in those meetings where he says he was "absent in the body" from the church but present in spirit.

Context determines meaning.

The same word has different meanings depending on context.
 
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Gary K

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That is one of the definitions that fits a certain context. But notice that is not the meaning of the term in 1 Cor 5 example given above. Paul's "person" was not actually present in those meetings where he says he was "absent in the body" from the church but present in spirit.

Context determines meaning.

The same word has different meanings depending on context.
Do you think I just woodenly apply the same meaning to the situation Paul is speaking of?
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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It seems we agree on what you are saying " by your definition whenever someone kills the body - they have by definition - killed the soul" you are simply adding "but not forever" to the end of your version, and ignoring the fact that Jesus said they cannot kill the soul at all because "they are unable to kill the soul".

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Where Jesus says "unable to kill the soul" you revise to "able to kill the soul - but not forever, not beyond God's ability to resurrect the soul".


Interesting change.


I assume you accept the bodily resurrection of the wicked in Rev 20 and so you affirm that even though the "body is killed" in this life - yet it comes back in Rev 20. "They can still kill the body" as Matt 10:28 points out -- no matter that it comes back in resurrected form in Rev 20.

So in that context - they "cannot kill the soul' - yet "they can kill the body" in this life. as Jesus points out in Matt 10:28 no matter that the body will later be resurrected. It is still dead. And that is by contrast to the soul in Matt 10:28
Yes I am speaking that at Matthew 10:28 that those who kill the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ are human beings born in sin as any other human being. Human beings no matter who they are can kill Jesus Christ apostles and disciples which some were put to death by human beings, but no human being or group of human beings not even a nation of human beings can cause your death to be an eternal death. Only the True God YHWH has the ability and the authority to cause your death to be a eternal death. That why Matthew 10: 28 says to fear only the person who can destroy both body and soul in gehenna.

As for the body that a human being will have in the resurrection whether that person is righteous or unrighteous I don't think that it will be that exact human body that person had before his/her death because many human beings have been dead for thousands of years and their bodies have corroded back into the ground. But God will give each human being a human body that will look much like that human being because God can remember everything about those who will get a resurrection to the finest detail.
 
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reddogs

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The word soul in the scriptures refers to a human being, or an animal, or the life that a human being or a animal has. I agree we should keep the word soul in context of how the word soul is used in scripture. Which means that when scripture is referring to earthly creatures whether those earthly creatures are human beings or animals, it's referring to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. When it comes to the word soul, in scripture the word soul can be translated as, life, creature, one's whole being, or simply as a personal pronoun, for example using the word "I," for, "my soul." So I agree that we should consider the word soul as is used in scripture context.

Matthew 16:18 means the gates of Sheol-Hades. Since Jesus has the keys of death and of Hades(Revelation 1:18), Jesus congregation(church) has had the assurance that death and Hades would not hold them forever in bondage. The apostle Paul showed that all of these die, going into death and Hades, as did Christ whom God loosed from the hands of death and did not leave in Hades.(Acts 2:24, 31) Because of the resurrection, death and Hades do not have final victory over Christ's congregation(church).

Genesis 2:7 teaches us clearly that God took dust from the ground and formed a flesh and blood human body, then God blew the breath/spirit of life into the flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So Genesis 2:7 doesn't teach us that the breath/spirit of life separate from the flesh and blood human body is the living soul or the living person. Matthew 10:28 doesn't contradict Genesis 2:7. So Matthew 10:28 isn't saying human beings have living souls in the flesh and blood human body.
All Matthew 10: 28 is teaching people is that the only person who can judge a human being to not be a living person or living soul for eternity is God. So it's true that a human being or group of human beings can kill another human being and that human being when put to death by another human being or group of human beings will not be a living soul or living person no more. In other words the human being that was killed no longer exists as a living soul or living person, but these human beings that have killed this human being can cause his/her death to be eternal death. No human being or group of human brings has the ability certainly not the authority to cause someone to be in nonexistence permanently, only God has that authority and ability.
Many get confused on this verse, it has to be shown what is meant and with the help of the Holy Spirit they begin to grasp the understanding of it...
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Many get confused on this verse, it has to be shown what is meant and with the help of the Holy Spirit they begin to grasp the understanding of it...
Genesis 2:7 is a product of God's Holy Spirit, and Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that man was given a living soul or living person when God blew the breath/spirit of life into that flesh and blood human body. Instead Genesis 2:7 says that the flesh and blood human body that God had formed from the dust became a living soul or living person when God blew the breath/spirit of life into that flesh and blood human body. Genesis 2:7 is very clear so those who choose not to agree with it are going against the Holy Spirit because as I said Genesis 2:7 is a product of God's Holy Spirit. God inspired men to write down his thoughts and when God inspired those people to write down his thoughts he inspired them to write down his thoughts accurately with his Holy Spirit. So Genesis 2:7 is accurate, it's very clear so when God inspired men to write down that God took dust from the ground and formed a flesh and blood human body from that dust. Then God blew the breath/spirit of life into that flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person.
 
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reddogs

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Genesis 2:7 is a product of God's Holy Spirit, and Genesis 2:7 doesn't say that man was given a living soul or living person when God blew the breath/spirit of life into that flesh and blood human body. Instead Genesis 2:7 says that the flesh and blood human body that God had formed from the dust became a living soul or living person when God blew the breath/spirit of life into that flesh and blood human body. Genesis 2:7 is very clear so those who choose not to agree with it are going against the Holy Spirit because as I said Genesis 2:7 is a product of God's Holy Spirit. God inspired men to write down his thoughts and when God inspired those people to write down his thoughts he inspired them to write down his thoughts accurately with his Holy Spirit. So Genesis 2:7 is accurate, it's very clear so when God inspired men to write down that God took dust from the ground and formed a flesh and blood human body from that dust. Then God blew the breath/spirit of life into that flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person.
I came across this which seems to agree with this but very in depth..
Body, Soul, Spirit

Man, like all beings endowed with life, originated from two elements,—namely, from earthly material (עָפָר, אֲדָמָה), and from the Divine Spirit (רוּחַ), Gen. 2:7, comp. Ps. 104:29 f., 146:4. As in general נֶפֶשׁ, soul, originates in the בָּשָׂר, the flesh, by the union of spirit with matter, so in particular the human soul arises in the human body by the breathing of the divine breath (נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים) into the material frame of the human body. But although the life-spring of the רוּחַ, from which the soul arises, is common to man and beast, both do not originate from it in the same way. The souls of animals arise, like plants from the earth, as a consequence of the divine word of power, Gen. 1:24 (תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ). Thus the creating spirit which entered in the beginning, 1:2, into matter, rules in them; their connection with the divine spring of life is through the medium of the common terrestrial creation. But the human soul does not spring from the earth; it is created by a special act of divine inbreathing; see 2:7 in connection with 1:26. The human body was formed from the earth before the soul; in it, therefore, those powers operate which are inherent to matter apart from the soul (a proposition which is of great importance, as Delitzsch rightly remarks). But the human body is still not an animated body; the powers existing in the material frame are not yet comprehended into a unity of life; the breath of life is communicated to this frame directly from God, and so the living man originates. According to the view of many, the specific difference between the life of the human soul and that of animals is expressed by the use of the term נְשָׁמָה in 2:7 (2). This, however, cannot be established, for in 7:22 ("All in whose nostrils was the breath of life died"), the exclusive reference of the expression נְשָׁמָה to man (as merely another expression for כֹּל הָאָדָם, ver. 21), coming between the general terms comprehending man and beast, which stand both before and after it, is not natural. In Deut. 20:16, Josh. 10:40, 11:11–14, כָּל־נְשָׁמָה denotes only men; but in these passages the special reference of the expression is made clear by the connection,—in the passage in Deuteronomy by ver. 18, and in the book of Joshua because from 8:2 onward the cattle are excepted from the חֵרֶם. Otherwise one might as well prove from Josh. 11:11, where כָּל־הַנֶּפֶשׁ is used exclusively of man, that the human soul alone is called נֶפֶשׁ. But it is correct that in the other places in the Old Testament in which נְשָׁמָה occurs it is never expressly used of the mere animal principle of life; p 150 comp. Isa. 42:5, Prov. 20:27, Job 32:8, and Ps. 150:6 (כֹּל הַנְּשָׁמָה). Thus the substance of the human soul is the divine spirit of life uniting itself with matter; the spirit is not merely the cause by reason of which the נֶפֶש contained beforehand in the body becomes living, as Gen. 2:7 has by some been understood (3). For in the עָפָר as such, in the structure of dust, there is, according to the Old Testament, as yet no נֶפֶשׁ, even latently. This is first in the בָּשָׂר, in the flesh; but the earthly materials do not become flesh until the רוּחַ has become united with it, 6:17, 7:15, Job 12:10, 34:14 f. It is no proof against this (as has further been objected) that in some passages (Lev. 21:11; Num. 6:6), the dead body from which, according to Gen. 35:18, the soul has departed, is called נֶפֶשׁ מֵת before it crumbles to dust. I believe this expression is to be understood as a euphemistic metonymy, just as we speak of a dead person without meaning to say that the personality lies in the body; or perhaps in this designation of a dead person the impression is expressed which the corpse makes immediately after death, as if the element of the soul had not yet entirely separated itself (thus Delitzsch) (4). But as the soul sprang from the spirit, the רוּחַ, and contains the substance of the spirit as the basis of its existence, the soul exists and lives also only by the power of the רוּחַ; in order to live, the soul which is called into existence must remain in connection with the source of its life. "God's spirit made me" (רוּחַ אֵל עָשָׂ֑תְנִי), says Job. 33:4, "and the breath of the Almighty animates me" (וְנִשְׁמַת שַׁדַּי תְחַיֵנִי, with the imperfect). The first sentence expresses the way in which the human soul is called into being; the second, the continuing condition of its subsistence. By the withdrawing of the רוּחַ the soul becomes wearied and weak, till at last in death it becomes a shadow, and enters the kingdom of the dead (comp. § 78); while by the רוּחַ streaming in, it receives vital energy. With this explanation the Old Testament usage in connection with the terms נֶפֶשׁ and רוּחַ becomes intelligible. In the soul, which sprang from the spirit, and exists continually through it, lies the individuality,—in the case of man his personality, his self, his ego; because man is not רוּחַ, but has it—he is soul. Hence only נַפְשִׁי, נַפְשְׁךָ, can stand for egomet ipse, tu ipse, etc., not רוּחִי, רוּחֲךָ, etc. (not so in Arabic); hence "soul" often stands for the whole person, Gen. 12:5, 17:14, Ezek. 18:4, etc. When man is exhausted by illness, his רוּחַ is corrupted within him, Job 17:1 (רוּחִי חֻבָּלָה), so that the soul still continues to vegetate wearily. When a person in a swoon comes to himself again, it is said his spirit returns to him, 1 Sam. 30:12 (וַתָּֽשָׁב נֶפֶשׁ) compared with Judg. 15:19. But when one dies, it is said the soul departs, Gen. 35:18; his soul is taken from him, 1 Kings 19:4, Jonah 4:3. When a dead person becomes alive again, is is said the soul returns again, 1 Kings 17:22 (וַתָּֽשָׁב נֶפֶשׁ). It is said of Jacob, whose sunken vital energy revived when he found his son again, that his spirit was quickened, Gen. 45:27 (וַתְּחִי רוּחַ). On the contrary, of one who is preserved in life it is said, חָיְתָה נֶפֶשׁ, [the soul lives] Jer. 38:17–20. When God rescues one from the jaws of death, it is said, Ps. 30:4, "Thou hast brought up my soul out of Sheol;" comp. Ps. 16:10 (5).—Man perceives and thinks by virtue of the spirit which animates him (Job 32:8; Prov. 20:27); wherefore it is said in 1 Kings 10:5, when the Queen of Sheba's comprehension was brought to a stand, that "there was no spirit in her more" (לֹא־הָיָה בָהּ עוֹד רוּחַ); but the p 151 perceiving and thinking subject itself is the נֶפֶש (comp. § 71). The impulse to act proceeds from the רוּחִ, Ex. 35:21; hence one who rules himself is a משֵׁל בְּרוּחוֹ, Prov. 16:32. But the acting subject is not the רוּחַ, but the נֶפֶשׁ; the soul is the subject which sins, Ezek. 18:4, etc. Love and attachment are of course a thing of the soul, Gen. 34:3 (וִתִּדְבַּק נַפְשׁוֹ) and ver. 8 (חָשְׁקָה נַפְשׁוֹ); and so in Cant. 5:6, the words of the beloved, נַפְשִׁי יָצְאָה, cannot be explained, "I was out of my senses" (as De Wette thinks), but the bride feels as if her very personality had gone forth from her to follow and seek her beloved. In many cases, indeed, נֶפֶשׁ and רוּחַ stand indifferently, according as the matter is looked upon—that is, to use Hofmann's words (Schriftbeweis, i. p. 296), according as "the personality is named after its special individual life, or after the living power which forms the condition of its special character." Thus it may be said on the one hand, "Why is thy spirit so stubborn?" (מַה־זֶּה רוּחֲךָ סָרָה), 1 Kings 21:5; on the other hand, "Why are thou so bowed down, O my soul?" (מַה־תּשְׁתּוחֲחִי נַפְשׁי), Ps. 42:12. Of impatience it may be said, "The soul is short" (וַתִּקְצַר נֶפֶשׁ), Num. 21:4, and "shortness of the spirit" (קֹצֶר רוּחַ), Ex. 6:9; compare Job 21:4. Trouble of heart is "bitterness of the spirit" (מֹרַת רוּחַ), Gen. 26:35; and of the soul (הֵמַר נַפְשִׁי), Job 27:2, it is said וַתּפָֽעֶם רוּחוֹ, Gen. 41:8, and נַפְשִׁי נִבְהֲלָה מְאֹד, Ps. 6:4. Compare with this in particular the climax in Isa. 26:9 (6). From all this it is clear that the Old Testament does not teach a trichotomy of the human being in the sense of body, soul, and spirit, as being originally three co-ordinate elements of man; rather the whole man is included in the בָּשָׂר and נֶפֶשׁ (body and soul), which spring from the union of the רוּחַ with matter, Ps. 84:3, Isa. 10:18; comp. Ps. 16:9. The רוּחַ forms in part the substance of the soul individualized in it, and in part, after the soul is established, the power and endowments which flow into it and can be withdrawn from it (7), (8)...Oehler, G. F., & Day, G. E. (1883). Theology of the Old Testament (pp. 149–152). Funk & Wagnalls.
 
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