You "Have a Soul"

[BobRyan]

The meaning of the term "soul" in the Bible depends on context and is not subject to a single wooden rule as if no context matters.

The same is true with words like "hell"

Matt 16:18 - "the gates of hell will not prevail against the church" uses the term as being Satan's kingdom. Satan's domain.

But in Matt 10:28 "God will destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" is a reference to the Rev 20 lake of fire event that is created by God, owned by God, fully in God's control.

=====================

So then in Gen 2:7 people are "living beings" - people are "souls".
But in Matt 10:28 you HAVE a soul such that in the first death people "kill the body but are unable to kill the soul".

The SDA teaching about the soul in death is "soul sleep" as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 regarding those 'WHO have fallen ASLEEP in Jesus". And also in John 11 "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake him" --- (As opposed to "Lazarus no longer EXISTS I go that he may exist again)

In Ezek 18 we are told that in the second death situation "the soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4 - but this does not refer to the first death since in Ezek 18 the righteous do not die -- only the wicked die. And that includes the wicked turning to God and being saved and then not dying - as the chapter points out. This is only the case in regard to the second death.

Ellen White was also very specific in saying that Ezek 18 applies to the second death just as the chapter demands it.

We have a teaching about "soul sleep" not "soul location". (and not "soul extinction" in the first death)

When someone dies their organs/cells/tissue still lives which is why we can have organ transplants. Yet their spirit/soul is gone.

Gen 35:18 And it came about, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath

So then in 2 Cor 12 Paul
can be confused "whether in the body or out of the body I don't know - the Lord knows" when he speaks of "being caught up to the 3rd heaven".

Since the body and the soul are separate things as we see in Matt 10:28 -- that confusion in 2 Cor 12 is within the bounds.

No wonder then that Ellen White says that Stephen's prayer to Jesus "into thy hands I commit my spirit" is an act of faith entrusting his SOUL to Jesus at death.

 

[BobRyan]

I am posting this in view of the current quarterly for SDAs


"There is danger of your slighting him too long. Your time is taken up with the vanities of the world, and you seldom retain thoughts that you have a soul to save or lose. Have you forgotten that there is one who was wounded for your transgressions and bruised for your iniquities? One who is now pleading with his Father, and presenting his wounded hands and feet, and pierced side and spilt blood, and pleads with him to spare you a little longer; for he hung upon the cross to redeem you. O, what love! what unbounded love and condescension the Son of God manifested for us. He died to give life to those who were his enemies!" {YI January 1, 1854, par. 4}


"The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. .... I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, “You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God.” {EW 39.3}

2 Cor 12:1 ...I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows— 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak. 5 In behalf of such a man I will boast; but in my own behalf I will not boast, except regarding my weaknesses.

 

[BobRyan]

At the moment a person dies - their spirit departs but their physical body "cells" still have the breath of life in them - such that you can do organ transplants - taking living organs from a dead body.

Speaking of Rachel - Jacob's wife we find this -

Gen 35: 18 And it came about, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

the spirit/soul departs before the cells of the body die.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The meaning of the term "soul" in the Bible depends on context and is not subject to a single wooden rule as if no context matters.

The same is true with words like "hell"

Matt 16:18 - "the gates of hell will not prevail against the church" uses the term as being Satan's kingdom. Satan's domain.

But in Matt 10:28 "God will destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" is a reference to the Rev 20 lake of fire event that is created by God, owned by God, fully in God's control.

=====================

So then in Gen 2:7 people are "living beings" - people are "souls".
But in Matt 10:28 you HAVE a soul such that in the first death people "kill the body but are unable to kill the soul".

The SDA teaching about the soul in death is "soul sleep" as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 regarding those 'WHO have fallen ASLEEP in Jesus". And also in John 11 "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake him" ---

In Ezek 18 we are told that in the second death situation "the soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4 - but this does not refer to the first death since in Ezek 18 the righteous do not die -- only the wicked die. And that includes the wicked turning to God and being saved and then not dying - as the chapter points out. This is only the case in regard to the second death.

We have a teaching about "soul sleep" not "soul location".

So then in 2 Cor 12 Paul
can be confused "whether in the body or out of the body I don't know - the Lord knows" when he speaks of "being caught up to the 3rd heaven".

Since the body and the soul are separate things as we see in Matt 10:28 -- that confusion in 2 Cor 12 is within the bounds.

No wonder then that Ellen White says that Stephen's prayer to Jesus "into thy hands I commit my spirit" is an act of faith entrusting his SOUL to Jesus at death.

I am not SDA but have done a mini study on the soul vs spirit. Thanks for sharing! Blessings.

 

[Gary O']

@BobRyan

I am struggling with where you are going with this.

Will you be posting more?

As an aside, I'm of the understanding the soul is comprised of our body of flesh and the breath of life (the spirit)

Are you going somewhere else with this?

 

[Freth]

The definition of the living soul is given in Genesis 2:7.

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
​

The living soul consists of the dust of the ground and the breath of life.

Upon death, the living soul ceases. The breath of life goes back to God and the body returns to dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

We know when we die, we are asleep on this earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
​

The essence of who we are remains here on earth, awaiting resurrection. The breath of life is the life force that God gives us, which returns to Him when we die.

Therefore, my personal belief:

• Who we are, whether you want to call it our spirit, our soul, ceases to function when we die, because the breath of life has left us. We are "asleep" on earth, therefore no part of who we were leaves this earth until the resurrection.
• The breath of life is not our consciousness, nor who we are. It is simply the life force that kept us alive. It returns to God, but has no special essence of the person who lived.

Two potential points of argument:

• The souls under the altar in Revelation 6, who cry out for vengeance. Revelation 6 is highly symbolic, and even Ellen said John did not see literal souls under the alter.
• "Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" of 1 Thessalonians 4:14 can be misinterpreted to mean God brings souls from heaven to earth for the resurrection. I believe this is speaking of God bringing those asleep on earth to heaven with Him (Jesus).

Ellen on 1 Thessalonians 4:14:

The Bible clearly teaches that the dead do not go immediately to heaven. They are represented as sleeping until the resurrection. 1 Thessalonians 4:14; Job 14:10-12. In the very day when the silver cord is loosed and the golden bowl broken (Ecclesiastes 12:6), man’s thoughts perish. They that go down to the grave are in silence. They know no more of anything that is done under the sun. Job 14:21. Blessed rest for the weary righteous! Time, be it long or short, is but a moment to them. They sleep; they are awakened by the trump of God to a glorious immortality. “For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible.... So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” 1 Corinthians 15:52-54. As they are called forth from their deep slumber they begin to think just where they ceased. The last sensation was the pang of death; the last thought, that they were falling beneath the power of the grave. When they arise from the tomb, their first glad thought will be echoed in the triumphal shout: “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” Verse 55. { GC 549.3}​

The living soul ceases to function upon death. The body returns to dust, awaiting resurrection here on earth. The breath of life returns to God from which it came. I do not believe that any part of us goes to heaven with the breath of life, but remains on earth, as scripture says. Just how that works, how who we are is preserved in the dust, only God knows. God is in complete control of that process, and it isn't for me to know.

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan

I am struggling with where you are going with this.

Will you be posting more?

As an aside, I'm of the understanding the soul is comprised of our body of flesh and the breath of life (the spirit)

Are you going somewhere else with this?

It depends on context. Gen 2:7 has the context for what you are talking about but Matt 10:28 does not.

Just like the term "Hell" depends on context.

In Matt 16 "The gates of hell will not prevail against the church" does not mean "the gates of the lake of fire" rather it means the gates of Satan's kingdom.

In Matt 10:28 the statement that God "destroys both soul and body in fiery hell" is not using the term "hell" to mean "Satan's domain, Satan's kingdom" rather it refers to God's own work in the Lake of Fire in Rev 20.

So context matters when it comes to the meaning of terms.

Ellen White claimed to have been given a body with wings - and that she was taken up and out of herself - to other worlds. She was told she could not eat of the Tree of Life until Jesus came to Earth to take the saints to heaven etc.

Paul's statement in 2 Cor 12 "whether in the body or out of the body - I do not know" appears to make a similar claim regarding his understanding of what the possibilities really are in those cases.

At the same time that was going on - in her body here on Earth she was holding up a large Bible and quoting Bible verses. Clearly her body here on Earth still had "the breath of life" in it - yet she was taken some place else - at the same time. Paul mentions this same thing in 2 Cor 12.

My point is there is a lot of "I don't know" in all of that and we can be comfortable knowing that the "soul sleep" teaching is correct. When a person dies their soul/spirit returns to God and is dormant - it has no thought, no interaction and awaits the resurrection where an entirely different body is given to it.

If you stick with Gen 2:7 then "a DIFFERENT body + breath of life == a DIFFERENT soul" and you could never be resurrected by definition since in that Gen 2:7 formula a different body is by definition a different living being, a different soul, a different person.

 

[BobRyan]

The living soul ceases to function upon death. The body returns to dust, awaiting resurrection here on earth. The breath of life returns to God from which it came. I do not believe that any part of us goes to heaven with the breath of life, but remains on earth, as scripture says. Just how that works, how who we are is preserved in the dust, only God knows. God is in complete control of that process, and it isn't for me to know.

A few problems with that

1. Your definition means that a "different body" at the resurrection plus the breath of life is a different soul since by definition soul = body plus breath of life. Change either one of those and you have a different soul by definition - not the same soul.

2. Using just the Gen 2:7 context - then 2 Cor 12 can't exist since by definition there can be no such thing as "out of the body" for a living person.

"2 I know a man in Christ, who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows"​

3. using that Gen 2:7 context - then Matt 10:28 can't be true since there can be no such thing as "kill the body but not the soul" -- by definition since the soul has no meaning at all without the body using the Gen 2:7 context alone.


Gen 35:18 18 And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

4. Ellen White points out that Stephen is trusting his soul to Christ when he says "receive my spirit".

Stephen committed the keeping of his soul to Him whom he saw in his yielding up his life. “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” He said “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” He committed his soul unto Jesus. He only is able to take care of it. We are not our own selves able to appreciate or take care of our souls. And if we do not commit our souls to God in faith and trust every day, Satan himself will take the soul committed to his will. None should be entrusted with the soul but He [line left out] things we may say, “My soul is as an angel before God: its worth I can only estimate by the cross of Calvary. It is more precious than gold, silver, and precious stones. Its value is to be estimated by the price paid to redeem it.” [1 Peter 1:18-22, quoted.] 15MR 101.1

" You have a soul to save or to lose, and it is your privilege and duty to conduct your lives in this probationary time in such a way that you will have a right to the immortal inheritance. {YI August 3, 1893, par. 1}

"Christ taught the people to ask, “What saith the word of the Lord?” I have a soul to save. I cannot afford to be mystified when my eternal well-being is at stake. Because my minister refuses to examine the Scriptures with a heart free from prejudice and stubbornness, RH May 28, 1901, Art. A, par. 4

=====================

All of our official doctrine on soul and death and resurrection is focused on "soul sleep" not "soul extinction" at the first death. We don't claim "a different person" is resurrected - but rather it is the SAME person in a DIFFERENT body. And that only works if "person" is not strictly limited to "body", or "living-body". Because the moment you have a "different body" you have by definition "a different person". We also don't claim that at the first death "the soul dies" so then Ellen White is correct to reference Ezek 18:4 strictly as referencing the second death - not the first death.


Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man is returned to God there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him. 15LtMs, Ms 76, 1900, par. 10 , 6BC 1093.2, Hvn 40.1, FLB 185.4


Paul illustrates this subject by a kernel of grain sown in the field. The planted kernel decays, but there comes forth a new kernel. The natural substance in the grain that decays is never raised as before, but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him. A much finer material will compose the human body, for it is a new creation, a new birth. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. 15LtMs, Ms 76, 1900, par. 11

 

[BobRyan]

context determines meaning. Gen 2:7 is one context for the term soul and it is "a living person" -- body plus breath of life.

But there are other contexts for that term in the Bible as well.

 

[Freth]

You quoted Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Strong's G5591 natural (psychikos):

• of or belonging to breath
  • having the nature and characteristics of the breath
    • the principal of animal life, which men have in common with the brutes
  • governed by breath
    • the sensuous nature with its subjection to appetite and passion

Strong's G4152 spiritual (pneumatikos):

• relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
  • that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
• belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
• belonging to the Divine Spirit
  • of God the Holy Spirit
  • one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
• pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing

According to Paul, the state we are in now is a natural body. The state we will be in after resurrection is a spiritual body. Both are bodies. Both are living souls by definition. Only one is a spiritual body, post resurrection.

Ellen defined the "spirit" of man as his character.

"The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved."​

Scripture says we are raised from sleeping in the dust of the earth (Daniel 12:2), from the grave.

I don't think it matters where our character resides, it's in a sleep state and is dormant. In my view, it does not equate to the traditional view of what a spirit or soul is.

 

[BobRyan]

You quoted Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body....According to Paul, the state we are in now is a natural body. The state we will be in after resurrection is a spiritual body. Both are bodies. Both are living souls by definition.
​

​

I agree. The point I was making is "a different body = a different soul" when we use the formula SOUL = BODY + breath of life.

1 Cor 15 says it is a different body entirely

"35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished"

"Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man is returned to God there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him." 15LtMs, Ms 76, 1900, par. 10 , 6BC 1093.2, Hvn 40.1, FLB 185.4

My point was not that we don't have a body at the resurrection -- just that it is not the exact same body.

So then if and electric car is -- car-parts +_ electricity -- then having a different set of car parts and adding electricity -- is to have "a different car".

If we extend "breath of life" to include character, personality and that undefined thing the embodies the exact person hood of the individual -- then inserting it into an entirely different physical body is to still have the 'same person'. But in that case the thing that makes "you ... you" is not the body but rather that bundle of spirit, personality, character, memories... etc and etc which looks a lot like Matt 10:28 "Kill the body but not the soul" as it is "preserved" and then at the resurrection joined to a physical body.

Whether or not we have a "soul" or are just a "living soul" until death, we are asleep during the time between the first death and the first resurrection

If "we" are asleep rather than annihilated( ceasing to exist) - because "we" are that thing that goes back to God at death and is preserved -- then it begins to look a lot like Matt 10:28. One thing is for sure, the Bible says the body is killed, is destroyed, is returned to dust.

We will know soon enough whether we have a "soul", or whether we're just "living souls".

" You have a soul to save or to lose, and it is your privilege and duty to conduct your lives in this probationary time in such a way that you will have a right to the immortal inheritance. {YI August 3, 1893, par. 1}

"Christ taught the people to ask, “What saith the word of the Lord?” I have a soul to save. I cannot afford to be mystified when my eternal well-being is at stake. Because my minister refuses to examine the Scriptures with a heart free from prejudice and stubbornness", RH May 28, 1901, Art. A, par. 4

I did a search for "you don't have a soul" ... could not find one. But "have a soul" showed up many times.

 

[Freth]

Let's look at Matthew 10:28.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Strong's G5590

• breath
  • the breath of life
  • the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
    • of animals
    • of men
• life
• that in which there is life
  • a living being, a living soul

• the soul
  • the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
  • the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
  • the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

Which is the verse talking about?

• The breath of life and the body—the living soul?
• The seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul, etc.)?

Or both?

The living soul consists of the breath of life and the body. The living soul has feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul).

In Matthew 10:28, the wicked who die in the lake of fire are living souls who have been resurrected with their faculties intact. The second death destroys them completely.

My closing statement:

It could very well be that the breath of life also stores who we are and both return to God in one package... but scripture doesn't come out and say that's how it works.

The other point I was trying to make, which may not have been apparent, is that many people think of the soul as a ghost-like spirit aspect of who we are, when in fact the living soul is the description of the physical body, the breath of life, and who we are as a person as a result of being a living soul. Note that God owns the body and the breath of life, but our character is our own.

The spirit is our character, as Ellen said... but that character only exists when there is life. When there is no life, it does not exist (actively participate any longer). Thus the living soul and who we are cannot be separated, except by the means which God uses to cause us to sleep and "store" us until resurrection. If God knows the number of hairs on your head, He's most likely already actively storing you (by whatever means). Yes, I know that's just reasoned speculation on my part; I simply don't know.

When Ellen says, "You have a soul to save or to lose", she's referring to the whole package... the living soul, as I defined above, which includes the body, the soul and the character (who you are; see quotes below). For instance, John 3:16-17 is talking to a living soul, an individual (whosoever) who has the ability to reason and believe or not.

I hope and pray that you will not lose faith, or become discouraged. We all have our individuality; this cannot be submerged in another. You have a soul to save or to lose. DG, Chapter 17

You have a soul to save or to lose, and it is your privilege and duty to conduct your lives in this probationary time in such a way that you will have a right to the immortal inheritance. YI August 3, 1893, par. 1
​

Character.

I'm not sure I can add much more to the discussion, other than to say that we should stay scripturally grounded always (I'm talking to myself too).

Side note: I think we should consider the many verses that say we are "raised", and that we sleep (Daniel 12:2 "in the dust of the earth"), which points to an earthly component and shouldn't be dismissed.

 

[Freth]

One more angle I was going to mention, but didn't...

When you are conceived in the womb, you do not have a memory, nor a character, but you have the breath of life, which could indicate that the two, the breath of life (life force) and the character, are two distinct things. The character develops over a lifetime. The breath of life is always there as well, until death.

It doesn't prove one way or the other, I just wanted to mention it.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's look at Matthew 10:28.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

..

• that in which there is life
  • a living being, a living soul

• the soul
  • the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
  • the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
  • the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

And here is the question

Which is the verse talking about?

• The breath of life and the body—the living soul?
• The seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul, etc.)?

Or both?

The text sets death of the body - in opposition against - death of the soul.

So that eliminates soul also being body by definition.

In Matthew 10:28, the wicked who die in the lake of fire are living souls who have been resurrected with their faculties intact. The second death destroys them completely.

True.

At the second resurrection the body is no longer dust - it is now a body... but then after the lake of fire event - the body is once again dust.

The difference being that in the second death "both" body AND soul are destroyed - where as in the first death only the body is destroyed.

As Christ points out in John 11:
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

It could very well be that the breath of life also stores who we are and both return to God in one package

And as long as the state of the person is properly and accurately described as "dormant" in the John 11 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 -- then that fits perfectly with our doctrine on that point.. and fits a lot of those statements I quoted from Ellen White. It also discloses the mechanism where Paul's statement in 2 Cor 12:1-4 makes perfect sense.

This means that the extra-biblical illustration of "box and nails" is not accurate. It was going too far.

So why would that be a problem? It is only the problem of being too conservative on the side of 'nothing going on here' right? You can't go wrong by going too far if it is on the conservative end -- right?

Well isn't that exactly what Eve was doing in her response in Gen 3 - she was going "beyond" what was written - too conservative -- she said "do not eat and do not touch" so that once she had touched the fruit and did not die - well then that was "proof" that the Word of God had failed.

My concern for even mentioning this topic at all - is that when someone sees the evidence I have shown here from both the Bible and what Ellen White said - and realizes they were going too far to the right - they like Eve might be tempted to then revert back -- throwing out the baby with the bath water if this realization comes in a time of crisis.

In John 6 Jesus introduces a new concept to his own followers so that those who were not going to cling to Him would leave early rather than wait for the cross and have a massive wave of desertion pull many sincere believers with it.

The other point I was trying to make, which may not have been apparent, is that many people think of the soul as a ghost-like spirit aspect of who we are,

Which does not matter if they consider it to be dormant while the person is dead ... because when a person dies they have no body at all according to 2 Cor 5:1-4 and in the resurrection they don't get the same body back. So tying the old body to it at every point - does not survive 2 Cor 5 or Matt 10:28

God owns the body and the breath of life, but our character is our own.

That is a 3 part definition. But in Eccl 12 there are only two parts. The body that goes to dust (destroyed) and the spirit that goes back to God where as we are told character, personality, personhood of the individual is preserved and in a dormant state.

The spirit is our character, as Ellen said... but that character only exists when there is life. When there is no life, it does not exist

Then it also does not sleep. Something that does not exist cannot sleep.
So you have a point where the body is dust - so it does not exist, and in your view the character is not preserved rather it does not exist - so it cannot sleep.

For your idea to get to 'soul sleep' you need to come up with a third thing. The Adventist church teaches soul sleep - which fits with Matt 10:28 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 -- not soul annihilation at the first death. In other words - we do not use Ezek 18:4 as a reference to the first death ... only the second death. (As Ellen White also points out)

Your rendering with the soul destroyed at the moment the body is destroyed makes Matt 10:28 look like this "do not fear those who can kill both body and soul but then cannot resurrect them ... but fear Him who is able to resurrect and then kill body and soul again in hell" - which is hard to get from that text.

When Ellen says, "You have a soul to save or to lose", she's referring to the whole package... the living soul, as I defined above, which includes the body, the soul

She states explicitly that nothing of your body is saved - not even the same particles of it are present at the resurrection. The Catholic church used to burn protestants and scatter their ashes in the river because their thinking was that God would need to go find each carbon atom to resurrect the person and could not do it if the ashes were scattered. But we know that God is not in the business of tracking carbon atoms as if they have our name on them.

I hope and pray that you will not lose faith, or become discouraged. We all have our individuality; this cannot be submerged in another. You have a soul to save or to lose. DG, Chapter 17

You have a soul to save or to lose, and it is your privilege and duty to conduct your lives in this probationary time in such a way that you will have a right to the immortal inheritance. YI August 3, 1893, par. 1
​

 

[Freth]

Let me reiterate. The living soul consists of body + breath of life (Genesis 2:7).

The first death:

• Body returns to dust.
• Breath of life returns to God.
• Who you are is asleep.

The second death:

• Body and soul (breath of life) are destroyed.
• Who you are is destroyed.

I showed that the word for soul used in Matthew 10:28 (Strong's G5590 on Blue Letter Bible) can mean breath of life. It can also mean the person's character. When the body and soul are destroyed in hell, it is the complete you. Body, soul (breath of life)/(who you are). The definitions are either distinct or synonymous. If they are distinct, then it can mean one or the other. If they are synonymous, then it can mean both. If both then it makes perfect sense, because all of "who you are" perishes in the lake of fire. Your body, your soul, your character.

Here's G5590 from a physical Strongest Strong's I have:

soul (psychē): life, soul; heart, mind; a person; the immaterial (and eternal) part of the inner person, often meaning the animate self, which can be translated by pronouns: "my soul" = "I, myself"​

I showed how Ellen is pointing to character in her soul statements, "You have a soul to save or to lose", which is the complete you (as per the above) that is destroyed in the lake of fire.

I defined "does not exist" in parentheses in my previous post as "actively participate any longer". Who we are ceases to exist in our reality. It does not have "any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun". i.e. It is not a living existence, thus is doesn't exist any more in our reality. Of course it is preserved, I'm not saying that it isn't.

Let's revisit the Daniel 12:2 statement.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

• Sleep in the dust of the earth
  
• Shall Awake

The statement should be considered in the discussion, which was my point. Not that we somehow keep the same particles of our former body. I feel there is significance to the statement made.

Ellen on Daniel 12:2:

Graves are opened, and “many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth ... awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Daniel 12:2. All who have died in the faith of the third angel’s message come forth from the tomb glorified, to hear God’s covenant of peace with those who have kept His law. -DD, 47.2​

I'm good with Ellen's statement, that "The spirit, the character of man is returned to God there to be preserved." The spirit, the character.

I think we should take heed of her preceding sentence in her quote: "The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man."

 

[BobRyan]

I'm good with Ellen's statement, that "The spirit, the character of man is returned to God there to be preserved." The spirit, the character.

I think we should take heed of her preceding sentence in her quote: "The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man."

Agreed.

My point is that whatever else we might feel the need to "add" needs to carefully avoid crossing the lines set by scripture.

On one side - we cannot cross the line in Matt 10:28 and take it from "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul - but fear Him who is able to destroy both body AND soul in fiery hell" and instead turn it into "do not fear those who kill the body and the soul but cannot later resurrect you, rather fear Him who is able to kill the body and the soul in hell". And in the same way we cannot turn John 11 into "Lazarus no longer exists ... so nothing there to be asleep".

On the other hand we cannot argue that the soul is active rather than in a dormant state during death.

And with all the "I have a soul" and "you have a soul" statements from Ellen White - it does not serve us very well to go out on the limb of "you don't have a soul". We don't gain anything by it and the Bible does not support it.

Gen 35:18 And it came about, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath

Does not need any "fixing" if we just stick to our "soul sleep" teaching.

 

[NBB]

I have felt my soul during some experiences, it is spiritual.

 

[BobRyan]

I have felt my soul during some experiences, it is spiritual.

Some Bible texts do talk about the soul that way
1 Samuel 1:15
But Hannah answered and said, “No, my lord, I am a woman despairing in spirit; I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but I have poured out my soul before the Lord."

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The meaning of the term "soul" in the Bible depends on context and is not subject to a single wooden rule as if no context matters.

The same is true with words like "hell"

Matt 16:18 - "the gates of hell will not prevail against the church" uses the term as being Satan's kingdom. Satan's domain.

But in Matt 10:28 "God will destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" is a reference to the Rev 20 lake of fire event that is created by God, owned by God, fully in God's control.

=====================

So then in Gen 2:7 people are "living beings" - people are "souls".
But in Matt 10:28 you HAVE a soul such that in the first death people "kill the body but are unable to kill the soul".

The SDA teaching about the soul in death is "soul sleep" as we see in 1 Thess 4:13-18 regarding those 'WHO have fallen ASLEEP in Jesus". And also in John 11 "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may wake him" --- (As opposed to "Lazarus no longer EXISTS I go that he may exist again)

In Ezek 18 we are told that in the second death situation "the soul that sins it shall die" Ezek 18:4 - but this does not refer to the first death since in Ezek 18 the righteous do not die -- only the wicked die. And that includes the wicked turning to God and being saved and then not dying - as the chapter points out. This is only the case in regard to the second death.

Ellen White was also very specific in saying that Ezek 18 applies to the second death just as the chapter demands it.

We have a teaching about "soul sleep" not "soul location". (and not "soul extinction" in the first death)

When someone dies their organs/cells/tissue still lives which is why we can have organ transplants. Yet their spirit/soul is gone.

Gen 35:18 And it came about, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath

So then in 2 Cor 12 Paul
can be confused "whether in the body or out of the body I don't know - the Lord knows" when he speaks of "being caught up to the 3rd heaven".

Since the body and the soul are separate things as we see in Matt 10:28 -- that confusion in 2 Cor 12 is within the bounds.

No wonder then that Ellen White says that Stephen's prayer to Jesus "into thy hands I commit my spirit" is an act of faith entrusting his SOUL to Jesus at death.

The word soul in the scriptures refers to a human being, or an animal, or the life that a human being or a animal has. I agree we should keep the word soul in context of how the word soul is used in scripture. Which means that when scripture is referring to earthly creatures whether those earthly creatures are human beings or animals, it's referring to that which is material, tangible, visible, and mortal. When it comes to the word soul, in scripture the word soul can be translated as, life, creature, one's whole being, or simply as a personal pronoun, for example using the word "I," for, "my soul." So I agree that we should consider the word soul as is used in scripture context.

Matthew 16:18 means the gates of Sheol-Hades. Since Jesus has the keys of death and of Hades(Revelation 1:18), Jesus congregation(church) has had the assurance that death and Hades would not hold them forever in bondage. The apostle Paul showed that all of these die, going into death and Hades, as did Christ whom God loosed from the hands of death and did not leave in Hades.(Acts 2:24, 31) Because of the resurrection, death and Hades do not have final victory over Christ's congregation(church).

Genesis 2:7 teaches us clearly that God took dust from the ground and formed a flesh and blood human body, then God blew the breath/spirit of life into the flesh and blood human body and that flesh and blood human body became a living soul or living person. So Genesis 2:7 doesn't teach us that the breath/spirit of life separate from the flesh and blood human body is the living soul or the living person. Matthew 10:28 doesn't contradict Genesis 2:7. So Matthew 10:28 isn't saying human beings have living souls in the flesh and blood human body.
All Matthew 10: 28 is teaching people is that the only person who can judge a human being to not be a living person or living soul for eternity is God. So it's true that a human being or group of human beings can kill another human being and that human being when put to death by another human being or group of human beings will not be a living soul or living person no more. In other words the human being that was killed no longer exists as a living soul or living person, but these human beings that have killed this human being can cause his/her death to be eternal death. No human being or group of human brings has the ability certainly not the authority to cause someone to be in nonexistence permanently, only God has that authority and ability.

 

[Gary K]

The mystery is cleared up when we look at the Hebrew word for soul as it agrees with the Greek word in the NT

Genesis 2: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

From Strong's:

5315
נפשׁ
nephesh neh'-fesh
From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it.

.