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You guys claim to be early church

germo155

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Why do you ignore prayer language, private prayer language in tongues?
And can you as beliver lay hands on sick? Cast out devils, my bible says that these signs follow those who believe, do you believe you can?
And second, is it nessacery to pray for icons that you have in ur church, if bible tells us to not pray on idols, or do I misunderstood something

Greetings from Finland
 

ArmyMatt

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Why do you ignore prayer language, private prayer language in tongues?
where in the Bible is this mentioned?
And can you as beliver lay hands on sick?
yes

Cast out devils, my bible says that these signs follow those who believe, do you believe you can?
yes and yes


And second, is it nessacery to pray for icons that you have in ur church, if bible tells us to not pray on idols, or do I misunderstood
we don’t pray for icons, and icons are not idols. plus the Bible says not to worship idols. we don’t worship icons.
 
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prodromos

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Why do you ignore prayer language, private prayer language in tongues?
What benefit is there in praying in words you don't understand?
How do you discern that the words you are uttering are of God?
 
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notRusskiyMir

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private prayer language in tongues
Is there public prayer language in tongues? Public prayer language in tongues should mean that the speaker understands what he/she is saying, and one or more people in the audience knows what the speaker is speaking. It is not just babbling. There must be communication between two or more people with public prayer language in tongues. Agreed?

So, what is the point of private prayer language in tongues? If there is no one to hear what is said, why speak in tongues? God doesn't require one to speak to Him in a foreign language, does He? God surely doesn't want one to babble nonsense to Him, does He? Where does it say in Scripture to speak nonsense to the Lord?
 
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notRusskiyMir

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Why do you ignore prayer language, private prayer language in tongues?
And can you as beliver lay hands on sick? Cast out devils, my bible says that these signs follow those who believe, do you believe you can?
And second, is it nessacery to pray for icons that you have in ur church, if bible tells us to not pray on idols, or do I misunderstood something

Greetings from Finland
I'm curious. Christianity as a religion is nearly 2000 years old. The best Orthodox hater would have to concede that Orthodoxy is within one year of 1700 years old (325 AD). Orthodox doctrine was formalized by the beginning of 5th century at the latest, so almost everything about Orthodoxy doctrine is at least 1500 years old. During that time Orthodoxy has been challenged by sophisticated foolishness such as the Gnostics, ignorant and scheming heretics, pagan barbarians, and everything in between. Yet Orthodoxy has endured through temporal persecution on top of that for extended periods. You might not know any of the Orthodoxy specifics. Yes, Orthodoxy is the early Church.

So you present topics that are not even 300 years old, if that, and have an expectation of convincing us we are wrong? Is that reasonable?
 
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FenderTL5

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..topics that are not even 300 years old, if that, and have an expectation of convincing us we are wrong? Is that reasonable?
The topic raised in the op is less than, but nearing, 125 years old. Agnes Ozman, the student of Charles Parham recognized as the very first to speak in the modern practice of a so called prayer language, did so on January 1st, 1901.

Orthodoxy, as I understand it, has always recognized the God given gift of being able to communicate in a language unlearned by the speaker or hearer. While not cessationists, we do recognize that Biblical languages have diminished over time

My opinion, not speaking from any position of authority beyond my own thoughts on the subject, is that the modern manifestations are phoney at best, demonic at worst. fwiw ymmv
 
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The Liturgist

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The topic raised in the op is less than, but nearing, 125 years old. Agnes Ozman, the student of Charles Parham recognized as the very first to speak in the modern practice of a so called prayer language, did so on January 1st, 1901.

Orthodoxy, as I understand it, has always recognized the God given gift of being able to communicate in a language unlearned by the speaker or hearer. While not cessationists, we do recognize that Biblical languages have diminished over time

My opinion, not speaking from any position of authority beyond my own thoughts on the subject, is that the modern manifestations are phoney at best, demonic at worst. fwiw ymmv

I’m not convinced that speaking in tongues is necessarily what we think it is. I think rather it refers to the ability granted by our Lord on an as-needed basis to communicate with people with whom we do not share a common language.
 
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The Liturgist

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And can you as beliver lay hands on sick? Cast out devils, my bible says that these signs follow those who believe, do you believe you can?

The Orthodox Church has the best track record of any denomination in terms of its ability to cast out devils, and we lay hands on and also anoint the sick and also during fasts, the entire congregation, with oil, as directed by Holy Scripture in the Epistle of James and the Gospels, among other places (the service of Holy Unction is built around seven sets of Scripture lessons and consecratory prayers and is one of my favorites, also I have seen the anointing of the sick with oil.

Returning to exorcism, it is rare among the Orthodox due to the efficacy of the sacraments whereby people are received into the Church, and we are very low-key about it, unlike the Roman Catholics, however, I have never heard of it not working. Also, Orthodox Christians are exorcised when they are baptized, whether as infants or adults, since the demons are sufficiently cruel that they will possess infants, but these exorcisms are done in the form of very brief prayers as opposed to the longer prayers of exorcism by St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil the Great used in someone confirmed to be demonaic.

And second, is it nessacery to pray for icons that you have in ur church, if bible tells us to not pray on idols, or do I misunderstood something

As my friend @ArmyMatt said, we do not pray for icons (what would there be to pray for?), nor are they idols - the Orthodox Church has never had idols at any time. Icons in our tradition are never even allowed to be three-dimensional sculpture. Rather, they appear to me to be a continuation of the iconography we know ancient Judaism had, from the synagogue at Dura Europos which was recently destroyed, along with the 2nd century Christian church, by the savages of ISIS.

The thing you should take away about the Orthodox more than anything else is that it is the most persecuted church, by the Roman and other Pagans, the Arians, the Saracens, the Turks starting in 1915, the Communists in 1917, and most recently the Islamic fundamentalists, and Scripture makes it clear that the faithful will endure extreme persecutions, and our reward for enduring these is in Heaven.
 
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All Becomes New

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What benefit is there in praying in words you don't understand?
How do you discern that the words you are uttering are of God?

The answer for both is the same. The question to ask then is, "How does it build up the individual?"
 
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prodromos

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David Lamb

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and we lay hands on and also anoint the sick and also during fasts, the entire congregation, with oil, as directed by Holy Scripture in the Epistle of James and the Gospels, among other places (the service of Holy Unction is built around seven sets of Scripture lessons and consecratory prayers and is one of my favorites, also I have seen the anointing of the sick with oil.
Sorry, but where does James say anything about anointing whole congregations during fasts? I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I can't find it.
 
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The Liturgist

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Sorry, but where does James say anything about anointing whole congregations during fasts? I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I can't find it.

No sir, you are correct, the basis for doing this is in Matthew 6:16-18, which interestingly is not one of the seven Gospels actually read during the liturgy, even though it does provide us with what I regard as a clear directive to conduct this sacrament generally for the benefit of the laity at the end of the great fast.

The actual seven epistles and seven Gospel lessons included are worth a read on their own, and it should be noted this liturgy is impossibly ancient, the present Eastern Orthodox form containing additional hymns dating from the Byzantine Empire, and I should also say impossibly beautiful.


If you were an Orthodox Christian no matter your age or station, and were diagnosed with a terrible illness, this service would be offered to you, and seated in one of our magnificent churches surrounded by the holy angels you would be anointed by as many as seven presbyters on different parts of your person.

This service is not intended to be a replacement or substitute for medical intervention.

Actually by the way, as a personal note it was reading an English text of that service about a dozen years ago that would combine with events to prompt me to join the Orthodox Church.
 
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David Lamb

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No sir, you are correct, the basis for doing this is in Matthew 6:16-18, which interestingly is not one of the seven Gospels actually read during the liturgy, even though it does provide us with what I regard as a clear directive to conduct this sacrament generally for the benefit of the laity at the end of the great fast.
Thanks for replying. Yes, I can see fasting in Matthew 6:16-18, and as part of the fasting the person anointed themselves. The reason for the anointing was not sickness, but so the person did not appear to other people to be fasting, as verse 18 says. There is nothing about anointing whole congregations. The verses say:

“16 ¶ "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17 "But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 "so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who [is] in the secret [place]; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.” (Mt 6:16-18 NKJV)
 
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Folks, please remember this site rule:

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Members who do not truly share the core beliefs and teachings of a specific congregational forum may post in fellowship or ask questions, but they may not teach or debate within the forum.​

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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Okay, I did. Now tell me what your point is.
But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Let all things be done decently and in order.
 
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The Liturgist

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The reason for the anointing was not sickness, but so the person did not appear to other people to be fasting,

The reason for this is because of the potential health impact of fasting. Now there are only a few total fasts during the Great Lent, and no one is allowed to fast where their fasting would cause a health issue (my confessor stopped me from fasting after I was diagnosed with some ailments of the digestive tract which have the effect of frequently leaving me unable to eat or digest properly), and during the Lent most of the fast is a restriction from eating certain kinds of food, such as meat and dairy products. However, there is a desire in the Orthodox Church that everyone be as healthy as possible going into Holy Week, where there are some total fasts, and furthermore if anyone is ill, which is not uncommon during the spring, the blessing of this sacrament, which is used in addition to, and not instead of, proper medical care, can be significant.

I would also note that the Orthodox Church venerates a large number of saints known as unmercenary healers (the Roman Catholics venerate many unmercenary healers as well). Essentially, if one trains as a doctor, and then provides medical care free of charge to people who otherwise could not afford it, or afford the medical care commensurate with what they would require, this is a very good and reliable way to be glorified.

One such saint was made known to St. Anthony the Great, while laboring in the desert as a hermit, and as the founder of modern monasticism (although he was not the first Christian hermit - indeed, while in the desert he was led to the mysterious St. Paul the Hermit, who was kept alive through the pure grace of God, as he lived at an oasis and the birds would bring him bits of bread and other food they had obtained in a nearby settlement, and when he reposed, St. Anthony saw lions digging a grave for him, which it is completely possible for a large cat to do, but in practice, they will only do this if commanded by God - someone truly infused with the Holy Spirit which Pentecostals seek will typically develop a uniquely close relationship with the animals and will usually be a hermit with a background as an Orthodox monk - one recent example is St. Seraphim of Sarov, who was visited in his hermitage not just by pilgrims, but also by bears and other animals.

St. Seraphim, before becoming a hermit, and being largely unable to walk, was the hieromonk (monastic priest) assigned to the convent in Sarov, which still exists today and has a number of nuns, but which unfortunately is very difficult to visit, especially for people born outside of the former Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, as the expelled seminarian Jugashvilli, more commonly known by his Russian nom de guerre Stalin (which means steel, Lenin having meant iron and being the nom de guerre of the leader of the atheist communists, Vladimir ilyich Ulyanov) with his usual cruelty, decided to obstruct pilgrimages to the holy site by making the city the first of the atomgrads, a closed city that was the center of the Soviet nuclear industry, roughly analogous to Los Alamos National Laboratory in the US.

At any rate, returning to the subject of unmercenary healers, St. Anthony was informed that he had an equal in the city (presumably Alexandria), a physician who gave all he earned aside from his simple living expenses to the poor, and sang the hymn known in the West as the Sanctus, which in Greek, the language likely spoken by the doctor, is as follows:

Ἅγιος, ἅγιος, ἅγιος Κύριος Σαβαώθ·
πλήρης ὁ οὐρανὸς καὶ ἡ γῆ τῆς δόξης σου,
ὡσαννὰ ἐν τοῖς ὑψίστοις.
Εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι Κυρίου.
Ὡσαννὰ ὁ ἐν τοῖς ὑψίστοις.

Most Protestant hymnals have this hymn “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Heaven and Earth are full of Thy Glory…” and it is normal for this song to be sung during Holy Communion. I would assume/hope this is the case in Baptist churches, as i have very seldom seen any church which has the Eucharist/Communion or the Lord’s Supper as low church Baptists tend to call it refer to it celebrate the service without that hymn.

At any rate, you might suspect that I had just serenaded you with unproved hagiography, but this is not the case - much of what I have told you, for example, St. Anthony’s status as a monk and his meeting of St. Paul the hermit, who was fed by birds and buried by lions, comes from the Life of Anthony, which was written by St. Athanasius, who is rather important to Christianity, probably the single most important Christian leader since the apostles, since it was St. Athanasius who:

  1. Prosecuted Arius at the Council of Nicaea, ensuring that the council understood the nature of the Arian heresy, and resulting in all but a handful of bishops who left the council early voting unanimously to anathematize Arius and Arianism and adopt the Nicene Creed, in defense of the Apostolic, Scriptural doctrines of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.
  2. Endured extreme persecution for the above, when one of the few eastern bishops not in attendance at the council, Eusebius of Nicomedia, falsely accused St. Athanasius of murder, resulting in him being briefly exiled to Trier, in Germany, by the Roman government, until his supporters in the Church of Alexandria found the layman he was alleged to have killed alive and well (there was also no coherent motive for St. Athanasius to kill the man - the man had been ill, presumably mentally as well as physically, and had been celebrating the Eucharist with his family despite not being a presbyter; what had actually happened was St. Athanasius met the man, explained to him he could not do that, and instead arranged for a presbyter to provide pastoral care for the man and his household; this is scarcely a situation where one would even be tempted to engage in homicide.
  3. Endured further persecution after Eusebius of Nicomedia corrupted the son and heir of St. Constantine, Constantius, persuading Constantius of the truth of Arianism, and thus causing the start of a systematic persecution of Christians by the Roman government which lasted for about 20 years in its fullest extent, and it was not for another 40 years, with the death of Emperor Valens and the enthronement of St. Theodosius, that the empire would have a Christian emperor, and during that time, Arians spread their false religion to the Visigoths and other Gothic tribes, who would later persecute and kill large numbers of Christians and sack Rome itself. Most of the Visigoths who settled in North Africa were converted to Islam, which is probably why one will find Berber tribesmen with blonde hair and blue eyes - somehow, Christianity disappeared from this region, I would suspect as a result of violence, as it is known that the Oriental Orthodox Church of Numidia was killed off (likewise the Church of Caucasian Albania, in what is now Azerbaijan, was killed off, although recently it has been revived with some fanfare, probably as a PR move by the Azeris who do not want to risk sanctions for the genocidal war they have waged against Armenia, and thus are trying to present themselves as tolerant and supportive of Christianity, even as they work to eradicate all traces of Armenian culture, such as thousand year old cross carvings known as khachkars, from the areas they have conquered.
  4. After a long exile, St. Athanasius was returned to Alexandria and the Arian bishop George was deposed. There was much rejoicing upon his return
  5. When St. Athanasius reposed, St. Gregory the Theologian wrote a panygeric in which he declared the name Athanasius had become synonymous with virtue.
  6. St. Athanasius, in addition to writing the Life of Anthony, also wrote On The Incarnation, which is regarded as one of the most important works of Patristic literature and theological scholarship, and which explains in great detail the scriptural, apostolic doctrine of the Incarnation - that our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ is God incarnate. The only begotten Son and Word of God put on our humanity, being named Jesus (Joshua in Hebrew and Yehshua in Aramaic, meaning “Jah Saves”) in order to facilitate our salvation, by glorifying us; he is also known as Emanuel, meaning “God with us.”
  7. Furthermore, St. Athanasius also was the first to publish, in his 39th Pashcal encycilcal, the 27 book New Testament canon that all Christians use.

Based on his work at Nicaea, his contributions to the Creed, the importance of On The Incarnation to the development of Christian theological scholarship, and his definition of the first New Testament canon to be universally accepted by all churches, the same canon in use to this date, I consider that this adds a level of credibility to the Life of St. Anthony that makes the work impossible to ignore.

Of course, most Protestants ignore it anyway, but I regard this as a grave inconsistency. They accept the scriptural canon produced by St. Athanasius, along with the doctrine of the Trinity, yet reject another writing by the same man because the Life of Anthony is technically hagiographical (which is not to say that it is inaccurate - the idea that all hagiography is inherently wrong is a logical fallacy) and could be interpreted in such a way as to contradict the principle of sola fide (albeit not necessarily, since St. James wrote “faith without works is dead”, and most Protestants regard works as evidence of a living faith, and that is clearly the case with St. Anthony the Great, who had a very lively and devout faith.

Fortunately some Protestants, particularly Anglicans, have come to recognize the beauty and authenticity of this story, and still others have recognized that if this story is inaccurate, there is no reason to trust the 27 book canon. One might as well reject those books designated by Martin Luther as “antilegomenna.” However, doing so would undermine the various works of systematic theology constructed using the full 27 book canon by erudite Protestant divines of immense intellectual ability, most famously the Church Dogmatics of Karl Barth, but there are numerous other works of systematic theology and of dogmatic theology. Interestingly, as far as I am aware, Orthodoxy has never bothered to produce a work of systematic theology comparable to the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas or the Institutes of John Calvin or the Church Dogmatics of Karl Barth - rather, we prefer works of dogmatic theology which are simpler and easier to understand. I am not convinced that systematic theology is actually necessary, and will be posting a thread about this, probably in Traditional Theology in order to ensure a certain level of quality in the responses.

At any rate @David Lamb - God bless you, and I do hope you might find it in you at some point to visit an Orthodox parish in the weeks and months ahead, as we typically have numerous weekday services not to mention All Night Vigils and Vespers (the former is a typically two and a half hour service that combines Vespers, Compline, Matins and Prime into one service that contains most of the propers about an upcoming feast, although I would note that service does not usually include any preaching - homilies are heard during the Divine Liturgy in parishes, although most monasteries do not have a homily during their divine liturgy, since instead the monks listen to the reading of important books during lunch and dinner in the trapeza (refectory).
 
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The Liturgist

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But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you unless I speak to you either by revelation, by knowledge, by prophesying, or by teaching? Even things without life, whether flute or harp, when they make a sound, unless they make a distinction in the sounds, how will it be known what is piped or played? For if the trumpet makes an uncertain sound, who will prepare for battle? So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Let all things be done decently and in order.

This is entirely correct, and my main objection to Pentecostal and Charismatic worship is that it does not strike me as sufficiently orderly, nor is it the case that the language spoken are real, so there is usually no way of verifying that the interpreter has interpreted correctly.

I myself believe the main point of this charisma was to allow efficient communication by the Apostles with groups they had not previously spoken to, and it explains how certain apostles were able to communicate with nations they should have been unable to speak to, for example, St. Bartholomew, who was martyred attempting to communicate with the Armenians, and St. Andrew the First Called, who communicated with several tribes before being martyred in what is now Constantinople.

It had the secondary effect of being impressive, but clearly there was already misuse and imitation of it going on, which is why we see St. Paul address this issue.

The focal point for the impressive effect of this charisma was clearly and obviously on the Feast of Pentecost itself (known as Shavuot in Hebrew)*, when the Apostles were given the ability to communicate in actual languages.

*I would note, and @Yeshua HaDerekh might also be aware of this, that in addition to the Orthodox tradition of decorating our churches with greenery, I have also seen Jewish synagogues do this, which is interesting - I wonder if they are copying our tradition for aesthetic reasons or rather if this was an ancient custom which was itself Christological prophecy of the tongues of fire, which is what the green leaves symbolize in our tradition, along with new life (which is also why our clergy usually wear green vestments on this occasion, and on Palm Sunday, and also usually on All Saints Day, which in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy is the first Sunday after Pentecost).
 
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