You don’t have a soul; you are a soul?

[tonychanyt]

You essentially defined it, in this link ("it becomes unconscious"

Well, when one sleeps, he does not lose his consciousness completely.

 

[Grip Docility]

Well, when one sleeps, he does not lose his consciousness completely.

Hmmmmm... I'm believing that you are already aware of Sheol and Heaven. Are you reconciling doctrine that "does not divide", by leaving ambiguity to the matter?

 

[tonychanyt]

Hmmmmm... I'm believing that you are already aware of Sheol and Heaven. Are you reconciling doctrine that "does not divide", by leaving ambiguity to the matter?

Can you be more precise?

 

[Grip Docility]

Can you be more precise?

I can't, because there is a very specific passage of scripture that challenges the concept of soul zip. In that light, I do not want to post it to you unless you would like to see it. It is a matter of respect, because you are an open minded theist constructing views by building scripture upon scripture. If you would like to see the passage, I will post it. If you would like to continue from the direction you are taking, I will silence myself on the matter.

 

[Semper-Fi]

In Exodus 31:1-5, God said he would fill Bezalel with spirit, and he would have understanding, wisdom, knowledge.
What is that spirit? Is it not holy spirit?

That is because It refers to Gods power here, the Holy Spirit
Not everyone receives this spirit. No animal receives it.
This is not talking about the spirit in man, or the breath of life.

Ecclesiastes 8:8 (KJV)
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit;
neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge
in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.
-

"Isn't the spirit of the almighty (Job 32:8), holy spirit?"

8But there is a spirit in man:
And the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

This is the Spirit in man, all men have, not to be confused with
Gods Holy spirit that is given to some people, but not all people.

 

[Semper-Fi]

You will need to explain both terms, in order for me to understand your question.

So you do not know what Gods Holy spirit and the Spirit in man mean?

They can have three.

1. The holy spirit
2. The spirit of life
3. The spirit (disposition) of man

Do you need scriptures for each?

One is Gods Holy Spirit.
One is life giving air[spirit-unseen] to breath by God,
the other is the spirit in man, that makes us different than other creatures.

I would ask for scriptures, but you keep interchanging them.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Thanks to duckduckgo Google got replaced... I found this:
This is the only known animal that doesn't need oxygen to survive
It’s still unclear how it gets energy

I have read that recent, I agree with this when they say
"possible it gets its energy from its host." I believe
It gets its air/energy from the host it attaches itself to.

 

[tonychanyt]

I can't, because there is a very specific passage of scripture that challenges the concept of soul zip. In that light, I do not want to post it to you unless you would like to see it. It is a matter of respect, because you are an open minded theist constructing views by building scripture upon scripture. If you would like to see the passage, I will post it.

Sure, post it. I like to know and I like to learn

 

[Grip Docility]

Sure, post it. I like to know and I like to learn

First and foremost, I know you are Loving and I want to make it clear that my opinion of what this means is merely my opinion.
I found this challenging to the idea of "soul zip", so, I figured you could suffer through it, also.
​

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all,[s]
the righteous for the unrighteous,[t]
that He might bring you[u] to God,
after being put to death in the fleshly realm[v]
but made alive in the spiritual realm.[w]​

19 In that state[x] He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison[y] 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah.....​

 

[tonychanyt]

​

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all,[s]​

the righteous for the unrighteous,[t]​

that He might bring you[u] to God,​

after being put to death in the fleshly realm[v]​

but made alive in the spiritual realm.[w]​

19 In that state[x] He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison[y] 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah.....​

ESV:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

Christ was put to death in the flesh and made alive in the spirit.

19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 becausee they formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.

See The gospel was preached even to those who are DEAD

 

[Grip Docility]

ESV:

Christ was put to death in the flesh and made alive in the spirit.


See The gospel was preached even to those who are DEAD

So, to understand you, correctly, by your study... You bypass the idea of a "Spirit Realm", how? That seams loaded as a question, but I'm trying to ask you a question directly from my mind, on the matter, as my personal bias is within my question. I did read your writeup, but still don't quite know how to identify how you get to the idea that souls aren't fully conscious, when Christ preached to "Spirits/Souls of the Dead".

 

[Zao is life]

You just provided a ton of useful information... so it could be incorporated and used for understanding! You specified that this wasn't hard theological assertion, but biblical information to expound on the discussed point!

Who are you? You're awesome... that's for sure!

Thank you for all of the excellent root language discussion and the possible outcomes of what it implies!

LOL. I'm just a believer in God and in His only Son, among billions of others. I'm not awesome at all. But thanks for the compliment

Bear in mind that a million theologians would disagree with what I said because IF what I say is true then it means that though Adam & Eve's bodies and souls were created, the spirit of the created human is born of the Spirit of God when God breathes (eternal) life into us, at which point we become living souls.

IMO there must be a reason why we read about God creating Adam, and then separately in the same passage we are told that God breathed (Spirit) into Adam and He became a living soul.

It would mean that Jesus told us that the human spirit - each spirit of each individual human - must be born of God's Spirit, or we will not see the Kingdom of God.

Note: This is vastly different to Christ Jesus, because He was begotten of God (not created) and born of a virgin, and He is the pre-existent Son of God - but we have been told that Christ's Spirit is the Spirit in us, giving (eternal) life to us. So I don't believe it's contrary to scripture to ask if this means that our own human spirits were born of God when we were born of the Spirit (i.e not "resurrected, spiritually", but born).

There is not one verse in the entire New Testament where any of the words used for resurrection (anástasis, égersis, anístēmi, and egeírō) are not talking about the resurrection of the dead body - so spiritual birth cannot be "resurrection from the dead".

With regard to the above, it's important to understand that in the following verses, zōopoiéō always refers to the quickening of the Spirit, but egeírō always refers to the resurrection of the body from the dead.

syzōopoiéō = quickened by the Spirit with Christ, but synegeírō refers to bodily resurrection with Christ's bodily resurrection.

συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō
to reanimate conjointly with (figuratively):--quicken together with.

συνεγείρω synegeírō
to rouse (from death) in company with, i.e. (figuratively) to revivify (spirtually) in resemblance to:--raise up together, rise with.

What I'm saying disagrees with Strong's definition where Strong's states that egeírō or synegeírō can refer to being revivified (spirtually):--raised up - but the reason I say this is because there is not one verse in the entire New Testament where any of the words used for resurrection (anástasis, égersis, anístēmi, and egeírō) are not talking about the resurrection of the dead body

- so spiritual birth cannot be "resurrection from the dead".

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath [συζωοποιέω syzōopoiéō] quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath συνεγείρω synegeírō raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" -- Ephesians 2:5-6.

"That which is born [gennáō] of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born [gennáō] of the Spirit (o. pneuma) is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto you, All of you must be born [gennáō] again." -- John 3:6-7

γεννάω gennáō, ghen-nah'-o
to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

"Born of the flesh" is referring to physical birth. We received life from our parents. We never had life before then. When we were born into the world, we were not "resurrected" or "raised from death".

"The wind (pneuma) blows (or breathes) where it decides, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." -- John 3:8

So now I've explained where my thinking is coming from regarding this - but I'm not someone who first speculates, and then believes his own speculation and writes it in stone - but I have not yet met anyone who can offer (what I would regard as) a reasonable argument against what I've brought up here. The arguments are almost always merely parroting official theology and established doctrine, which goes something along the lines of we were born dead (spiritually), and become spiritually "resurrected" by being born of the Spirit.​

 

[CoreyD]

You are most welcome.


Be a lot cooler if you did...

No thanks.
If I could read mind in my imperfect state, do you know how much trouble I'd be in?
Think about it. It's best to leave the mind reading to perfect beings, like Christ.
Us humans can all be uncool... including @Grip Docility .

Like when in the middle of a sinless doctrine debate.... aaaaaaannnnd they quoted James chapter 2, aaaaaaannnnd a scripture wall involving the word "obey"... Annnnnnddddd They're quoting condemnation scripture towards me.....

? Can you put that in English please. You lost me. Sorry.

Sigh... Do you know how much scripture surfing we are going to have to do to fully define this? You have a gift for asking questions that are a 100 lb sack of nails, contained in a 1 lb sack!

I'm sorry.
Am I asking too many questions.
I ask questions in order to be clear in understanding a person.
If it's too much for you, just let me know, and I'll stop.

I Love you for that!

Oh, good.

This is going to have to be a specific, dedicated post. It will be a rather large one, to back it up scripturally... so... I will generate it and link it (here), after we chug through this monster post, that currently exists.

In post (Number 37) I said:

Spoiler

Genesis 1:2 Ruach Elohim
Genesis 6:17 Ruach (Breath of Life)

G4151 - pneuma - Strong's Greek Lexicon​

G4151 - pneuma - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
Interesting enough, we see God form from the lifeless dust of the earth, a man, in Genesis 2:7.

Several interesting Hebrew words come to play in this small portion of scripture, that crescendo, in a sense, at Genesis 2:7.

5315. nephesh (Feminine, Soul, Living Being)
5397. neshamah (Feminine, Breath) - From nasham; a puff, i.e. Wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. Or (concretely) an animal -- blast, (that) breath(-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
5301. naphach

Brown-Driver-Briggs
[נָפַח] verb breathe, blow (כור נפוח Ecclus 43:4 a furnace blown upon (heated hot); Late Hebrew נָפַח id., ᵑ7 נְפַח, Syriac

; Assyrian napâ—u, inflame, nappa—u, smith DlHWB 474; Arabic (

and)

blow; Ethiopic

or

Di712); —​

I find these words interesting, because, within them, the equation for life is revealed. What I find most interesting is that God intimately breaths His very "Breath" into "lifeless dust"...... which needed some form of liquid to become (clay)... which I personally believe is echoed here (John 9:6)

All this to say, (dead substance created by God} + {Breath and possible salivation of God) = (Human Soul, Human Being, Living spiritual Being)

Thanks.
I would not have known, if I had not asked, because I did not read that post.
Thank you for being patient enough to answer.

Could you please quote where in the world you got the idea that I insinuated that God "did not"...... It was either a typo, or a misunderstanding on your part, due to the fact that I was responding in a relaxed format, lacking precision.

It's not your fault, sorry.
It's that mistake I made with seeing just one lion.
I probably was imagining myself as David, killing that lion.

It was actually @Semper-Fi who said it, several times.

God did not blow a soul into Adams lungs; he became a soul.

I know it does not say God blew a soul into Adams nostrils/lungs.

God did not blow a soul into Adams lungs;
he became a soul/creature.

Again, sorry for the mix up.
I recognize now there are two lions in this arena.

There's that 100 lb sack of nails. This isn't just one question. What it appears that you are asking is several questions.

When did Adam become "Eternal"?

That's not the question, sorry.
You didn't say Adam was eternal. You said Adam had an eternal soul within him.
However, if you are saying that Adam is the soul, and therefore Adam is eternal, my question to you would be, 'Did Adam die?'.
So, perhaps you could clarify your belief on this first.
Does Adam have an eternal soul, or is Adam the eternal soul, or both, or other?

When did Adam become/receive his Soul?

If you believe Adam has an eternal soul, yes. When did Adam receive his eternal soul?

I don't agree that the soul is eternal, can you proof this?

No. I would not express that, because I know persons refer to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, to support the belief in the immortal soul.
I'd rather ask, 'how can the soul be immortal, when the Bible says the soul dies?'

Please correct me if I am wrong, so we can approach this in a way that answers your question, specifically.

Done. Thanks.

You can read it in Genesis. But, that would be a lazy answer, and I have promised to become more articulate. So, here goes an attempt at a precise answer.

Spoiler

We have to nail down a fact that scripture reveals, first. We are made in the image of God. That is no joke. God is a "Trinity/Tri-Unity" ie. God is Tri-Une or Fully Une and also Fully Three. (Please don't go into Trinity doctrine at this point, as it is a well established matter that would derail this conversation beyond repair, to expound, exegete on the matter, at this point. God is 1 and 3.

We are 1 and 3, as well.
1: Mind: Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

2: Heart: 1 Samuel 12:24 Only fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart. For consider what great things he has done for you.

3: Soul: 1 Peter 2:25 For you were going astray like sheep; but now have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

You don't believe we are body / flesh then?

Scriptural links on this matter could easily turn into 1000's of scriptures to back this... however, luckily, we have them all 3 in one location.
Luke 10:27 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

Please don't forget Matthew 10:28, and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
What about spirit?

Also, what about strength?
At Luke 10:27, we read, And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Okay, hopefully you gathered the simple scriptural point that we are made in God's image, in a very special way, from that spoiler.

I gathered the reasoning of the mind of men, Grip.
Is that not what that is?

Next, we are going to have to bind a scriptural understanding of how this plays out, in light of our discussion.​

​

The mind, grey matter... physical being that is capable of thought, is DUST. It rots upon death.

The heart, inclinations, desires, culmination of will, needs and secret motives. This is the part that "goes of like a light switch turned to off" when we die, that you keep referring to.

The Soul, This is the part of us that simultaneously contains the very result of our heart and mind as they respond to our existence within this world. This "Thing" also contains the very "Breath of God". It's our very TRUE BEING. Our Bodies are Dust of an ephemeral sort, in the presence of a world marred by "DEATH". (Why did that guy use quotation marks when he said death?.... Because, death is now a literal being. It's another name for the devil! When God "Defeats" death, in Revelation, He is literally casting the being responsible for Death existing within His creation into the Lake of Fire.)

The Soul is the part of us that God is after! The Soul is what God SAVED, when He died, was buried and rose from the dead. God spiritually defeated "death" at Golgotha, but will physically defeat "death" at Hinnom/Gehenna.​

Ask yourself this question... WHO can KILL/Destroy the Soul?

Matthew 10:28 Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

​

Who is the "Him" in that verse?


Ecclesiastes 12:7

and the dust returns to the earth as it once was,​

and the spirit returns to God who gave it.​

Ecclesiastes 3:20-21

20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows if the spirit of people rises upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the earth?​

Isaiah 57:16

For I will not accuse you forever,​

and I will not always be angry;​

for then the spirit would grow weak before Me,​

even the breath of man, which I have made.​

Hebrews 12:9

Furthermore, we had natural fathers discipline us, and we respected them. Shouldn’t we submit even more to the Father of spirits and live?​

Matthew 10:28

Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

Revelation 6:9

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people (Souls)[a] slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.​

Philippians 1:23

I am pressured by both. I have the desire to depart and be with Christ—which is far better—​

2 Corinthians 5:8

and we are confident and satisfied to be out of the body and at home with the Lord.​

2 Timothy 4:6

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time for my departure is close.​

Jonah 2:2

I called to the Lord in my distress,​

and He answered me.​

I cried out for help in the belly of Sheol;​

You heard my voice​

1 Peter 3:18-20

For Christ also suffered for sins once for all,[a]​

the righteous for the unrighteous,[b]​

that He might bring you[c] to God,​

after being put to death in the fleshly realm[d]​

but made alive in the spiritual realm.[e]​

19 In that state[f] He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison[g] 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah

To answer your question...
Persons - the soul - can die by various means. See here.
However, the person can only be destroyed permanently, withut any hope of return to life, by the ones who determine that - God and Christ.

I'm Glad I understand your perspective!

POST CONTINUED ON NEXT POST​

Thanks. See you later.

 

[CoreyD]

I said that... forgive my direct answer... because ONLY GOD CAN KILL/DESTROY A SOUL. (Matthew 10:28). Only our infinite God, who gave us that Soul/Breath of Life can Destroy it. It doesn't go away, unless destroyed. It is what goes to heaven or sheol, upon death.

I'm not exegeting this... because that would be an entire OP, that would require sub, OP's, much like this post has already become, but... I will place the scripture for you to read through. Scripture isn't one dimensional. Long before science, Rabbis knew there was far more than this physical universe.

Spoiler

1 Corinthians 15

Resurrection Essential to the Gospel​

Now brothers, I want to clarify[a] for you the gospel I proclaimed to you; you received it and have taken your stand on it. 2 You are also saved by it, if you hold to the message I proclaimed to you—unless you believed for no purpose.[b] 3 For I passed on to you as most important what I also received:

that Christ died for our sins
according to the Scriptures,
4 that He was buried,
that He was raised on the third day
according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He appeared to Cephas,
then to the Twelve.
6 Then He appeared to over 500 brothers at one time;
most of them are still alive,
but some have fallen asleep.
7 Then He appeared to James,
then to all the apostles.
8 Last of all, as to one abnormally born,[c]
He also appeared to me.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by God’s grace I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not ineffective. However, I worked more than any of them, yet not I, but God’s grace that was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it is I or they, so we proclaim and so you have believed.

Resurrection Essential to the Faith​

12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say, “There is no resurrection of the dead”? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is without foundation, and so is your faith.[d] 15 In addition, we are found to be false witnesses about God, because we have testified about God that He raised up Christ—whom He did not raise up if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Therefore, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have also perished. 19 If we have put our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone.

Christ’s Resurrection Guarantees Ours​

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; afterward, at His coming, those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father, when He abolishes all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He puts all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy to be abolished is death. 27 For God has put everything under His feet.[e] But when it says “everything” is put under Him, it is obvious that He who puts everything under Him is the exception. 28 And when everything is subject to Christ, then the Son Himself will also be subject to the One who subjected everything to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Resurrection Supported by Christian Experience​

29 Otherwise what will they do who are being baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, then why are people baptized for them?[f] 30 Why are we in danger every hour? 31 I affirm by the pride in you that I have in Christ Jesus our Lord: I die every day! 32 If I fought wild animals in Ephesus with only human hope,[g] what good did that do me?[h] If the dead are not raised, Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.[i] 33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.”[j] 34 Come to your senses[k] and stop sinning, for some people are ignorant about God. I say this to your shame.

The Nature of the Resurrection Body​

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? What kind of body will they have when they come?” 36 Foolish one! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And as for what you sow—you are not sowing the future body, but only a seed,[l] perhaps of wheat or another grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He wants, and to each of the seeds its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same flesh; there is one flesh for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. 40 There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is different from that of the earthly ones. 41 There is a splendor of the sun, another of the moon, and another of the stars; for one star differs from another star in splendor. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead:

Sown in corruption, raised in incorruption;
43 sown in dishonor, raised in glory;
sown in weakness, raised in power;
44 sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: The first man Adam became a living being;[m] the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, then the spiritual.

47 The first man was from the earth
and made of dust;
the second man is[n] from heaven.
48 Like the man made of dust,
so are those who are made of dust;
like the heavenly man,
so are those who are heavenly.
49 And just as we have borne
the image of the man made of dust,
we will also bear
the image of the heavenly man.

Victorious Resurrection​

50 Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption. 51 Listen! I am telling you a mystery:

We will not all fall asleep,
but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound,
and the dead will be raised incorruptible,
and we will be changed.
53 For this corruptible must be clothed
with incorruptibility,
and this mortal must be clothed
with immortality.
54 When this corruptible is clothed
with incorruptibility,
and this mortal is clothed
with immortality,
then the saying that is written will take place:
Death has been swallowed up in victory.[o]
55 Death, where is your victory?
Death, where is your sting?[p]
56 Now the sting of death is sin,
and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory
through our Lord Jesus Christ!
58 Therefore, my dear brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the Lord’s work, knowing that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Perhaps read that text at Matthew 10:28 again, in full.
Does it not say, 'fear the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.'?

The context then, is helping us to appreciate, that only God can destroy the soul everlastingly.
That does not mean the soul cannot die, or be killed, as the scriptures in this post state.

Thank you!

Scripture uses the term "Sleep" to describe how we perceive death, from the perspective of this Realm of the "living".

John 11:1 He said this, and then He told them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I’m on My way to wake him up.”​

12 Then the disciples said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will get well.”​

13 Jesus, however, was speaking about his death, but they thought He was speaking about natural sleep.​

​

Thank you.

Recall when that little girl died, and Jesus said, “Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep.” (Luke 8:52), and they laughed at him.
Recall also, when Jesus told the disciples that Lazarus was resting, and they said to him, "Well, he will get up when he is ready. What's the worry." (in my own words)??

From the human perspective, the person who dies is gone.
From Jesus' perspective, the person is sleeping, because he is the resurrection and the life. The person will rise from the dead.
So to him, they sleep, and will wake up.

It gives the human, a different perspective to look at, than is common. It also gives them hope.

Jonah 2:2, 1 Peter 3:18-20, and that very parable, make it clear that there is a "Realm of the Dead". I will use STRONGS to assist.

Strong's (Sheol) Word Number H7585
sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

1. the underworld
2. Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead

Don't get me revved up! Hell is a conflation that has been the result of the scriptural telephone game. SHEOL is the correct term. Hades is the Hellenistic way that the apostles taught the greeks, though "Hades" is the god of the Greco Roman underworld. Just keep it at Sheol. What we know as HELLFIRE... isn't lit, until the end of ages.

It's always good to trace history, especially when it comes to language usage of the past.
Let's see what history has to say for our benefit.

Sheol
While the Hebrew Bible appears to describe Sheol as the permanent place of the dead, in the Second Temple period (roughly 500 BCE – 70 CE) a more diverse set of ideas developed. In some texts, Sheol is considered to be the home of both the righteous and the wicked, separated into respective compartments; in others, it was considered a place of punishment, meant for the wicked dead alone. When the Hebrew scriptures were translated into Greek in ancient Alexandria around 200 BCE, the word "Hades" (the Greek underworld) was substituted for Sheol, owing to its similarities to the Underworld of Greek mythology. The gloss of Sheol as "Hades" is reflected in the New Testament where Hades is both the underworld of the dead and the personification of the evil it represents.[4]

Hades
In older Greek myths, the realm of Hades is the misty and gloomy abode of the dead (also called Erebus) where all mortals go when they die. Very few mortals could leave Hades once they entered.

Hades in Christianity
Hades, according to various Christian denominations, is "the place or state of departed spirits", borrowing the name of Hades, the Greek god of the underworld. It is often associated with the Jewish concept of Sheol.

Early Christian views​

Tertullian (c. 160 – c. 225), making an exception only for the Christian martyrs, argued that the souls of the dead go down beneath the earth, and will go up to the sky (heaven) only at the end of the world:​

​

The variously titled fragment "Against Plato" or "De Universo", attributed to Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170 – c. 236), has the following:​

But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one's deeds the temporary punishments for characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, a lake of unquenchable fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all. And the unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned, shall be sentenced to this endless punishment​

If you aren't familiar with the history of the doctrinal views of various 'denominations' on the Greek word, the article has quite a bit of information.
In English usage the word "Hades" first appears around 1600, as a transliteration of the Greek word "ᾅδης"...

For me, the safest and more accurate way of defining Sheol and Hades, is their use in scripture, and not what people have referred to them as, over the course of history.

I frequently offer multiple theological interpretations on matters that aren't "Salvational". The 3 outcomes post was about the different ways that people can theologically and quiet biblically proof their idea of what the 2nd death is. I.e. Annihilation, Purgatory or ECT.

God is infinite... No beginning and no end. PERIOD. We are "Eternal", unless destroyed by God Himself. Only the INFINITE can kill the ETERNAL.

I really hope this helps... and am on standby to answer more questions.

All Love in Jesus Christ, to you.

I understand this is what you believe.
Thanks for sharing.

I do not see any scripture that says we are eternal though, as my opening words in this post show.
Again... Thank you. I appreciate having this conversation with you.
Happy to know you welcome quwstions. Stay tuned.

 

[CoreyD]

Air can mean spirit because it is invisible.

Semper-Fi said:
Where does the breath of life go when it leaves the creature?


"The spirit in Man" is what returns to God.

Semper-Fi said:
Does the breath of life give man something different then animals?

That verse says breath/or air. It can refer to spirit, because it in invisible.
All creature's breath air to survive. The Air we breathe give us life.

Semper-Fi said:
Where does the breath of life go when it leaves the creature?

That verse does not say "the breath of life.
The spirit mentioned is The spirit in man..

We have Ecclesiastes 11:5 a few verses away
"As you do not know the way the spirit comes to the bones
in the womb of a woman with child, so you do not know
the work of God who makes everything."

Are you saying [spirit] here in Ecclesiastes is the breath of life?
How can it be when breath enters the nostrils on first breath,
yet this verse says in the child bones, it enters in the womb.
This is the same spirit in mankind that returns to God in 12:7

Semper-Fi said:
If it does, what is it ? , What does it do?,

So the breath of life is no different in man and all creatures, correct?
So this breath of life does not give mankind our emotions, correct?

I answered these questions, didn't I?
Perhaps it might help if you tell me, what you understand this "spirit [in man]" to be.
It might help too, if you tell me what is the spirit of man (man's mental disposition).

Where does man get his emotions/ feelings/desires from then?

Thank you for the questions.

Do angles have emotions? Does God Do they have the breath of life?
What did Jesus say about the heart? Mark 7:21-23
Do you know what the heart is?

According to Galatians 5:19, where does man get his emotions, such as hatred, contentions, jealousies, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy? On the other hand, according to Galatians 5:22-24, where does man get love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control?

Does this answer your question?

What is man made in "the image and likeness" of God mean?

If the above scriptures do not help answer this question, consider please, what made Jesus like his father.
Do you know?

We all have the potential to display Godly qualities and be like God. That's the way God made Adam and Eve.
God is love. We are able to display and reflect God's love.
Through sin, our minds have been corrupted away from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3
With the help of holy spirit though, our minds and heart can be made to reflect God's glory, by displaying the qualities of the fruit of God's spirit. Hebrews 8:10; Hebrews 19:16

I hope you got the answer to the question from here.


I have to run now, so I will see you later, god's will.
Have a great day.

 

[Grip Docility]

? Can you put that in English please. You lost me. Sorry.

If you don't know, its one of those things that you just don't know.

You didn't say Adam was eternal. You said Adam had an eternal soul within him.
However, if you are saying that Adam is the soul, and therefore Adam is eternal, my question to you would be, 'Did Adam die?'.
So, perhaps you could clarify your belief on this first.
Does Adam have an eternal soul, or is Adam the eternal soul, or both, or other?

I wanted to be about precision, then I remembered a verse. Matthew 23:24 ... that isn't towards anyone here by myself. I'm going to super relax my format, and rest on exegesis and study.

This hyper fixation of Soul is actually not helpful. I will ask a single question to help matters go more smoothly. Do you believe that there is a place that the dead go?

If you believe Adam has an eternal soul, yes. When did Adam receive his eternal soul?

I'm going to drill down these long responses by seeking a starting point in discussion. Do you believe that we temporarily cease to exist when we die?

No. I would not express that, because I know persons refer to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, to support the belief in the immortal soul.
I'd rather ask, 'how can the soul be immortal, when the Bible says the soul dies?'

There are 3 kinds of death in scripture. This is where that needs to be addressed, because you are ignoring the premise of discussing type 1 and type 2 only.

Type 3: The soul that sins, dies. That is "spiritual death". Now, can a person be Spiritually dead and Carnally alive, ie walking around with a heart beat?

You don't believe we are body / flesh then?

That's an odd conclusion. Did you really have to ask this? Does the bible use different words to describe the same things, at any time?

Please don't forget Matthew 10:28, and 1 Thessalonians 5:23.
What about spirit?

CoreyD, you are playing semantics. Do you believe that there is a part of us that goes to heaven or the realm of the dead, when we die?

Also, what about strength?
At Luke 10:27, we read, And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Does the bible have a specific chapter on the Trinity?

I gathered the reasoning of the mind of men, Grip.
Is that not what that is?

We are 3 parts, but if a person wants to deny this, that is well. By fixating on gnat strainers... Spiritual teaching loses it's ability to communicate. We have a Body, Heart and Soul. I could say... we have a Mind, Heart and Soul. I could say that we have a Mind, Soul and Spirit. I could say that we have a Body Soul and Spirit. But.... you actually know what I am saying... spiritually. If for humor and biblical games, you ignore this point... you could deny this. Go back to Thessalonians... which I had initially quoted... and then you only brought up to exhaust discussion... and then look at what I am saying. You do know and you are playing naïve, IMO.

To answer your question...
Persons - the soul - can die by various means. See here.
However, the person can only be destroyed permanently, without any hope of return to life, by the ones who determine that - God and Christ.

Not one of your versus mentioned the word soul. You are mixing flesh with spirit, by superimposing the idea of carnal death, with the death of what God created. Those versus don't work.

Thanks. See you later.

If you're lucky...