You did not chose Me, I chose you.

[renniks]

To break one of the Ten Commandments would be a sin unto death. Would you really kill somebody? So when you say you don't believe anyone keeps the commandments perfectly, what specifically are you talking about.

There's no sin, including murder that can't be forgiven. But Jesus said if you have ever hated anyone, you are a murderer. If you have called someone fool you are hell bound. We are all bound for hell minus Jesus becoming sin for us.

 

[Oldmantook]

You are free to try to refute my post or point me to a post where you tried before.
ETA: Here is a link to a previous thread where I posted my aionios study, you responded but I did not see any attempt to address my post.
What Does Aionios Mean? (part 2, It is wrong to define aionios based on aion)

I responded to your copied and pasted list several times as it has appeared numerous times not only in response to me but to others as well, I suggest your search harder.

 

[Hammster]

That type of sin, yes.

In what way aren’t you obedient?

 

[Der Alte]

I responded to your copied and pasted list several times as it has appeared numerous times not only in response to me but to others as well, I suggest your search harder.

I acknowledged that you responded to my post but as I said you did not make any attempt to correct or refute what I said.
Actually "copied and pasted" implies that I copied the list from another source without identifying that source. That list and comments are my own work.
But repeating what I said, whenever anyone posts the patently false claim that "aionios never means eternal" I will counter it. My exegesis of the word "aionios" has never been disproved or refuted.

 

[Oldmantook]

I acknowledged that you responded to my post but as I said you did not make any attempt to correct or refute what I said.
Actually "copied and pasted" implies that I copied the list from another source without identifying that source. That list and comments are my own work.
But repeating what I said, whenever anyone posts the patently false claim that "aionios never means eternal" I will counter it. My exegesis of the word "aionios" has never been disproved or refuted.

I realize that list is of your own making. I have seen it repeatedly when you respond regarding this subject which is why I wrote copied and pasted. I have refuted several of your proof texts but you refuse to acknowledge that and instead persist in your own belief which of course is your prerogative.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I figured this was the passage to which you were referring. Here it is in the NASB:

Hebrews 10:26-29; 37-39
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?....

37 For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.​

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Why would a person "go on sinning willfully after "receiving a knowledge of the truth"? Is the effect of the indwelling Spirit so small, so weak, that the saved person can go right on sinning just as they always have? I don't believe that for a second. It seems evident to me that such a person has had merely an intellectual belief in the Gospel, not a belief that has arisen from the heart and is characterized by a sincere desire to be ruled and transformed by God. This is the belief of demons that the apostle James wrote of in his letter (James 2:19) I know many people within the Church who have a knowledge of the Gospel but who have not accepted it on a heart-level and yielded themselves to it. And, as you'd expect, they are "sinning willfully" on a daily basis. This is the sort of person described in verse 26, not a genuinely born-again individual.

The Early Church included "tares" (Matthew 13:24-40), "false brethren," Paul called them (2 Corinthians 11:26; Galatians 2:4) who participated in the life and work of the Church but who were not actually saved. The modern Church is filled to the brim with such "brethren" today. It is not surprising, then, that the writer of Hebrews addresses these "tares" directly in his letter, describing and warning them of the danger of having a knowledge of the truth but nothing more.

27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

This is all that remains for one who has obtained a knowledge of the Gospel but does not exercise saving faith in it. I encounter "Christians" quite often who are terrified of hell. Whenever I probe into their understanding of the Gospel and their experience of God since their "conversion," I inevitably discover that they have not had a genuine second spiritual birth. On some - often subconscious - level, they know this is so and go about with a constant feeling of dread, expecting the eternal punishment of hell should they die. And this is exactly what the writer of Hebrews describes in verse 27. Again, though, this is not a description of a genuinely saved person going apostate but of a false convert reaping the consequences of their false "conversion."

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?....

Certainly, this further description of the person in view in verse 26 confirms that the person is not saved. No person in whom the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, dwells would ever do what is described in this verse.

But what to make of the phrase "by which he was sanctified"? The past tense "sanctified" indicates an accomplished state of affairs. Does this mean the person being described is a truly born-again person? Well, verses 26, 27 and the first part of verse 29 all describe an unsaved person, so concluding that "sanctified" indicates a born-again status seems unwarranted. In what sense, then, can an unsaved person be "sanctified" by the blood of the covenant? I think the writer of Hebrew is referring to the "knowledge of the truth" that the person in view possesses, not their actual spiritual state. The person described in verse 26 and on knows that he has been sanctified by the shed blood of Christ, and this is what the writer of Hebrews is acknowledging at the end of verse 29. The writer of Hebrews is simply describing the false believer's "knowledge of the truth" when he writes, "by which he was sanctified."

37 For yet in a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay.
38 But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.​

There is no suggestion of lost salvation in these verses that quote the prophet Habakkuk. It requires a prior commitment to a saved-and-lost doctrine to interpret "My soul has no pleasure in him" as meaning, "the one who shrinks back has lost his salvation." God had no pleasure in the faithless Israelites when they shrank back from the Promised Land. He was very angry with them, in fact. But He did not reject them as His Chosen People. Even in the wilderness in which they wandered as a result of their unbelief, God continued to lead and care for them. One is not obliged, then, to understand "My soul has no pleasure in him" as meaning "he has lost his salvation."

39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Here the writer of Hebrews contrasts the genuine believer with the false one he has been describing in verses 26-29, the one who merely holds a knowledge of the truth but not a heart-belief in it. The false convert "shrinks back," but the genuine believer does not.

I don't see, then, that Hebrews 10:26-39 offers any ground for a saved-and-lost point of view, which is exactly what I would expect given what Scripture says about works having nothing to do with one's salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5) but rather with the believer being in Christ (1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 John 5:11-12), saved by his perfect, finished atoning work at Calvary (Romans 3:24; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:10, 12).

The problem with your theory that this person was not saved is that why would Paul tell an unsaved person they are disqualified from becoming saved? Or are you saying they weren't chosen to be saved; they are not one of the elect?

 

[CharismaticLady]

There's no sin, including murder that can't be forgiven. But Jesus said if you have ever hated anyone, you are a murderer. If you have called someone fool you are hell bound. We are all bound for hell minus Jesus becoming sin for us.

Anyone first coming to Jesus will be cleansed of all sin no matter if it was a sin unto death or a sin not unto death. But the types of sin are still distinguishable, and after being cleansed of all sin by Jesus, and receiving the powerful baptism of the Holy Spirit, a Christian can no longer commit a sin unto death, it isn't in his new nature; only a sin not unto death called a trespass. A trespass is unwittingly committed. IOW it is unintentional and not against God's laws as is a willful sin unto death, but against each other in slights and hurts. They are misunderstandings. God commands us to forgive one another trespasses against us; otherwise God will hold the trespass against the one who will not forgive. We are to love one another.

Hebrews 10:26-31 is talking about someone who has had all their sins forgiven, been sanctified, received the Holy Spirit and a new nature, and willfully goes against it and commits a sin against God's laws. They quenched the Spirit, and willfully committed a sin unto death. I believe in some cases that a person can come to their senses and repent if God allows him to. 2 Timothy 2:24-26; James 5:19-20

A mature Christians cannot commit a sin unto death, but their self control and love grows over time to where even trespasses are few and far between. This is why John says in 1 John 2:1 that it is possible to not sin at all, but if you do commit a sin not unto death Christ is our Advocate. (I say not unto death because no repentance is noted.) 1 John 1:7 shows someone walking in the Spirit, yet Jesus (as Advocate) is cleansing their trespasses.

 

[CharismaticLady]

In what way aren’t you obedient?

With trespasses against me. Sometimes I don't forgive as quickly as I should, but then realize to stay sinless, I must forgive, so from my heart, I forgive.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Are you are perfectly obedient?

That's redundant. Obedient is obedient.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

With trespasses against me. Sometimes I don't forgive as quickly as I should, but then realize to stay sinless, I must forgive, so from my heart, I forgive.

If you're sinless, I'm Bugs Bunny.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.

False teaching of a works gospel here.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

1 Peter 1:1-2 says God the Father elects according to His foreknowledge. Meaning, if somebody accepts Jesus, God the Father was aware of this fact and thereby He chose them before the saint was able to do so in real time. In other words, God is one step ahead of us. Granted, God wants all to be saved, but He knows not everyone will be saved. Only God knows ultimately who will repent in the end before they die.

John 15:16 does not mean God chooses some to be saved, and He chooses others to not be saved (against their own free will). Somebody has to force that kind of meaning into the text based on outside teachings (eisegesis).

This is also false. God is not a spectator.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

False teaching of a works gospel here.

The cross of Christ is of no use to the righteous.

 

[aiki]

The problem with your theory that this person was not saved...

Theory? No. I have simply understood the text. There is nothing theoretical about my comments on it.

why would Paul tell an unsaved person they are disqualified from becoming saved?

To what are you referring here, exactly?

Or are you saying they weren't chosen to be saved; they are not one of the elect?

I don't hold to a Calvinist perspective. Do you? Soteriologically, I stand somewhere between Molinism and Provisionalism.

www.soteriology101.com

 

[CharismaticLady]

If you're sinless, I'm Bugs Bunny.

I happen to believe and live the Scriptures. I can't speak for the rest of those in the Church.

1 John 3:
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. ... For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

In Revelation 3 I'm hot.

To Laodecia, the lukewarm church of today
15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

 

[Mark Quayle]

It is not just obedience, but abiding in Him and He in you. It is the difference between an acquaintanceship and a marriage. But the rest of the scripture is true. I don't know that you believe the scripture.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Both show answered prayer as the sign that you are abiding in Him, and one shows that it is keeping His commandments that shows that we are abiding in Him.

And Jesus has made keeping his commandments very easy. He gave us His Spirit that naturally keeps all God's righteous requirements and gives us a non-carnal nature.

Some believe that sanctification is a lifelong process to overcome our desire to sin, but Jesus already took care of that at the beginning when He took away our sin. But there IS a process that continues, but it is glorification, becoming more and more like Christ towards perfection.

2 Peter 1:5-7
giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

Uh, yes, I do believe the Scriptures. I'm wondering why you said that.

You list two passages, out of context --do you expect the fact that two support your thesis, and only one of those two to support mine, to show they are typical of all Scripture? Meanwhile, I suppose you could use them to show that prayer answered according to one's desires could be A sign, but not THE sign. I don't think I could give a full list of the many verses concerning not only confidence, but the direct "by definition" correlation of obedience with being "in him", "walking with him", "abiding in him" etc. * 1 John 2:3-6 and John 14:15 are nearby passages to your references.

Obedience is not the same thing as compliance. And yes, of course it is done "in Him" (-I wish more believers understood that in fact it is not obedience unless it is him in us causing it). Nevertheless, obedience does demonstrate and give confidence concerning belonging to Christ.

To me, prayer answered according to what I ask, in and of itself more closely fits "faith" as one of the listed gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12) than as THE sign that I belong to him. Of faith, hope and love, the greatest is love.

I am not saying this to reprimand or to be contentious; I have seen over and over that to the person endowed with a "spiritual gift" everything relates to and revolves around that gift. (Hence, my comment that to the evangelist, our purpose in life is to win souls to Christ).

I agree about Abiding in Him. What Theologians refer to as "sanctification" is also taught about in Scripture, in many places, (10 - 13 of them by name, depending on which version you use, "Sanctified" 105 times (no, I didn't look them all up to see how many of them are about the same matter.). What you describe as the continuing process is what they call sanctification, and the Greek affirms continuous action. Justification is the term describing what happened when Jesus took away our sin. But yeah, if you want to call Sanctification, Glorification, do so. (Maybe you can teach me something by it. I'm not altogether sure I get your point in doing so.)

The person who walks "in him" has as their dearest prayer to be like him and to remain close to him --what they want is not material things. Disobedience is exceedingly sorrowful, for the believer, as it demonstrates opposition to God typical of an unbeliever, rather than obedience; but further, disobedience continued is reason to doubt the salvation of that disobedient person. Can you say the same for prayer NOT answered according to what one asks --that is, do you find scripture saying that one not receiving according to whatever they ask has therefore reason to doubt their salvation? And does the heart's prayer to be like Christ and for wisdom to understand what is going on in their confused life, if apparently unanswered (God may take a person through many years of pain and sorrow concerning the state of his heart) does it indicated he does not belong to Christ?

 

[Mark Quayle]

Well, the apostle Paul disagrees with you. Here's what he wrote to the Christians at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Though Paul calls the Corinthian Christians "carnal" in this verse, twice in this verse he confirms that he is talking to fellow believers. He refers to the carnal Corinthians as both "brethren" and those who are "in Christ."

1 Corinthians 3:3
3 ...for you are still fleshly...

Here Paul asserts again the fleshliness - or carnality - of the Corinthian believers, though only a few verses later Paul describes these same carnal Christians as "God's building" and "field." (vs. 9)

Paul isn't done with the Corinthian Christians but spends a significant portion of his first letter to them criticizing and rebuking them for their sinfulness. (See chapters 5, 6 and chapter 11). I don't see, then, how you can legitimately assert that Christians have no carnal nature. Paul clearly indicates the opposite.

I'm not saying you are wrong. But: When Paul says he is speaking to them as to carnal, that doesn't clearly mean he is speaking to carnal Christians. If he calls them fleshly, later on, why doesn't he just be done with it and call them carnal there? Maybe they are the same root word, I don't know, but there may be a reason they aren't the same.

Anyway, she has a point --admit it-- that abiding IN CHRIST the carnal has no place. Further, as experience has shown me at least, any good I do is not I, but Christ in me. But yes, even as believers we behave as raging contradictions, and are lying to say we have no sin. The "old man" must be constantly put to death. Every time I hear someone say they have not sinned since [whatever date or event], I think, "Let me ask your wife about that."

 

[CharismaticLady]

I suppose you could use them to show that prayer answered according to one's desires could be A sign, but not THE sign

I never said they are according to my desires did I?

Nevertheless, obedience does demonstrate and give confidence concerning belonging to Christ.

The scriptures I used confirm what you have said, so I agree. Keeping commandments is the same as keeping them in obedience.

But what I was pointing out is there are levels of abiding. And I mentioned the difference between an acquaintance and a marriage.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Theory? No. I have simply understood the text. There is nothing theoretical about my comments on it.



To what are you referring here, exactly?



I don't hold to a Calvinist perspective. Do you? Soteriologically, I stand somewhere between Molinism and Provisionalism.

www.soteriology101.com

if you follow s101 you are in trouble and confused.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Anyone first coming to Jesus will be cleansed of all sin no matter if it was a sin unto death or a sin not unto death. But the types of sin are still distinguishable, and after being cleansed of all sin by Jesus, and receiving the powerful baptism of the Holy Spirit, a Christian can no longer commit a sin unto death, it isn't in his new nature; only a sin not unto death called a trespass. A trespass is unwittingly committed. IOW it is unintentional and not against God's laws as is a willful sin unto death, but against each other in slights and hurts. They are misunderstandings. God commands us to forgive one another trespasses against us; otherwise God will hold the trespass against the one who will not forgive. We are to love one another.

Hebrews 10:26-31 is talking about someone who has had all their sins forgiven, been sanctified, received the Holy Spirit and a new nature, and willfully goes against it and commits a sin against God's laws. They quenched the Spirit, and willfully committed a sin unto death. I believe in some cases that a person can come to their senses and repent if God allows him to. 2 Timothy 2:24-26; James 5:19-20

A mature Christians cannot commit a sin unto death, but their self control and love grows over time to where even trespasses are few and far between. This is why John says in 1 John 2:1 that it is possible to not sin at all, but if you do commit a sin not unto death Christ is our Advocate. (I say not unto death because no repentance is noted.) 1 John 1:7 shows someone walking in the Spirit, yet Jesus (as Advocate) is cleansing their trespasses.

No..not even close