You Can't Ask That

[Ana the Ist]

To me, the interactions I have with non-churchgoers, even when I'm in my "role" as a priest, can be very different from my interactions with churchgoers.

What do people in church want from me...?

They want me to fix the problems the church is facing. Some of them are better than others at realising that's not something the clergy can do on our own.

Care to give an example or two?

 

[Paidiske]

Well, for example, before I took up the job I have now, I was approached by another parish which is in some ways healthy, and growing, but which doesn't have much in the way of young families/children's ministry. And I was approached because as a mum with a young child, they thought if they got me in, I could attract other young families and "fix" their demographic skew.

But on investigation, I found out there were very good reasons why there were not young families in that church; reasons that couldn't (and perhaps shouldn't) be "fixed." My going there, on its own, was never going to change those reasons, and without the whole of the parish being behind very major change, their lack of young families would continue to be a reality.

But instead of doing the hard work around recognising all of that, and discerning what was important for their sense of mission, they had just thought, "Well, we'll get a young mum, and that will fix things!"

It doesn't work like that, and I turned down the offer.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, for example, before I took up the job I have now, I was approached by another parish which is in some ways healthy, and growing, but which doesn't have much in the way of young families/children's ministry. And I was approached because as a mum with a young child, they thought if they got me in, I could attract other young families and "fix" their demographic skew.

But on investigation, I found out there were very good reasons why there were not young families in that church; reasons that couldn't (and perhaps shouldn't) be "fixed." My going there, on its own, was never going to change those reasons, and without the whole of the parish being behind very major change, their lack of young families would continue to be a reality.

But instead of doing the hard work around recognising all of that, and discerning what was important for their sense of mission, they had just thought, "Well, we'll get a young mum, and that will fix things!"

It doesn't work like that, and I turned down the offer.

So in their minds...the problem was with a lack of people in a younger demographic, and they thought they would solve it by showing off their "shiny new younger member" (you)...

What was the problem they had in your mind?

 

[Paidiske]

They had known sex offenders in the congregation. Families were choosing to worship elsewhere.

And that might be valid, actually; the parish might decide that ministering to ex-sex offenders was an important part of its mission. But without acknowledging that that would come at a cost, accepting that cost, and going forward from there, they were really in a bit of denial about their situation.

Or at least, that's how I saw it.

 

[Hank77]

@Paidiske

Do you face extra challenges being a woman in the ministry?

 

[Ana the Ist]

They had known sex offenders in the congregation. Families were choosing to worship elsewhere.

And that might be valid, actually; the parish might decide that ministering to ex-sex offenders was an important part of its mission. But without acknowledging that that would come at a cost, accepting that cost, and going forward from there, they were really in a bit of denial about their situation.

Or at least, that's how I saw it.

That's not the answer I expected...

I'm sure you've heard of that situation before, sex offenders being caught yet not dismissed/prosecuted or simply shifted elsewhere...

Do you think the church simply has a reluctance to admit when they make a mistake? As in "we put this guy here...we can't have been wrong for doing so...so we'll just be more careful, forgive, and move on"...

Or do you think it's a more serious problem, that something about the work itself (whether that's being in a situation where one works with young people or perhaps having some moral authority over the sex lives of others) appeals to people inclined to commit such acts? Perhaps they join hoping to rid themselves of latent feelings they've developed and yet know are wrong?

 

[Paidiske]

I face different challenges.

There are people who won't accept my ministry as valid. And there's enough ordinary garden-variety discrimination that that's been difficult at times (I got kicked out of seminary when I was pregnant... and I was married!)

But on the other hand, unlike my male colleagues, I don't get abused in the street as a paedophile. I think people trust me more.

So different challenges.

 

[Paidiske]

That's not the answer I expected...

I'm sure you've heard of that situation before, sex offenders being caught yet not dismissed/prosecuted or simply shifted elsewhere...

Do you think the church simply has a reluctance to admit when they make a mistake? As in "we put this guy here...we can't have been wrong for doing so...so we'll just be more careful, forgive, and move on"...

Or do you think it's a more serious problem, that something about the work itself (whether that's being in a situation where one works with young people or perhaps having some moral authority over the sex lives of others) appeals to people inclined to commit such acts? Perhaps they join hoping to rid themselves of latent feelings they've developed and yet know are wrong?

No, you misunderstand. These men weren't in ministry. This is a little country town, and there's a prison nearby. Men who have been caught, sentenced, done their time... often end up living nearby when they're released. Some of them seek God in church.

There's no sense that there's anything being concealed or anyone doing the wrong thing here. But - being a small country town - everyone knows who these men are. And they don't choose to take their kids to church there.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I face different challenges.

There are people who won't accept my ministry as valid. And there's enough ordinary garden-variety discrimination that that's been difficult at times (I got kicked out of seminary when I was pregnant... and I was married!)

But on the other hand, unlike my male colleagues, I don't get abused in the street as a paedophile. I think people trust me more.

So different challenges.

Do you think that the church is struggling to stay relevant in modern times? To go along with that...do you think it's easier for people to find the things that they used to find in church, outside of church these days? Community...answers to difficult questions...support/comfort, etc?

 

[Paidiske]

Do you think that the church is struggling to stay relevant in modern times? To go along with that...do you think it's easier for people to find the things that they used to find in church, outside of church these days? Community...answers to difficult questions...support/comfort, etc?

I think it depends what you mean by "relevant." I think the church is eternally relevant in that at the deepest level we're on about human universals and questions of meaning and purpose and so on.

But yes, I think many things the church used to do have been taken on by secular groups or services. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Our core business ought to be proclaiming the good news, teaching and nurturing believers, and so on. If the secular world does other things it frees us up to focus on our core business (our mission).

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, you misunderstand. These men weren't in ministry. This is a little country town, and there's a prison nearby. Men who have been caught, sentenced, done their time... often end up living nearby when they're released. Some of them seek God in church.

There's no sense that there's anything being concealed or anyone doing the wrong thing here. But - being a small country town - everyone knows who these men are. And they don't choose to take their kids to church there.

Ahhh...ok...so you think the church shouldn't be admitting these men?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think it depends what you mean by "relevant." I think the church is eternally relevant in that at the deepest level we're on about human universals and questions of meaning and purpose and so on.

But yes, I think many things the church used to do have been taken on by secular groups or services. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. Our core business ought to be proclaiming the good news, teaching and nurturing believers, and so on. If the secular world does other things it frees us up to focus on our core business (our mission).

Do you ever meet people and think "they wouldn't have that problem if they didn't believe "xyz" religious belief"?

 

[Paidiske]

Ahhh...ok...so you think the church shouldn't be admitting these men?

Not exactly. But I think if they accept these men worshipping there, they also need to accept that their ministry/mission strategy will need to take that into account. Not just kind of go, "Well, we don't have families here" - because they choose to go elsewhere and we know why - "so if we get a young priest with a family we might get young families."

It doesn't work like that! Their next priest needs to be someone who can work with them to grow and develop outreach to people who actually want to be there.

 

[Paidiske]

Do you ever meet people and think "they wouldn't have that problem if they didn't believe "xyz" religious belief"?

Sometimes. Usually they're Christians who - I think - have the wrong end of the stick in some way. Bad theology can be very damaging indeed.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Not exactly. But I think if they accept these men worshipping there, they also need to accept that their ministry/mission strategy will need to take that into account. Not just kind of go, "Well, we don't have families here" - because they choose to go elsewhere and we know why - "so if we get a young priest with a family we might get young families."

It doesn't work like that! Their next priest needs to be someone who can work with them to grow and develop outreach to people who actually want to be there.

And you don't see yourself that way?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sometimes. Usually they're Christians who - I think - have the wrong end of the stick in some way. Bad theology can be very damaging indeed.

Is there a belief commonly accepted as true by your denomination that you don't agree with?

 

[Paidiske]

And you don't see yourself that way?

I could possibly be, but that parish wasn't right for me for other reasons. But the point was about people in the church looking to the clergy to "fix" things.

 

[Paidiske]

Is there a belief commonly accepted as true by your denomination that you don't agree with?

Ooh, that's a good question.

No, I don't think so. But one of the things I like about my denomination is that it defines the big picture things, but leaves a lot of stuff up to the individual believer. We don't have anything like a Catholic catechism (in terms of scope and detail) to define required beliefs.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I could possibly be, but that parish wasn't right for me for other reasons. But the point was about people in the church looking to the clergy to "fix" things.

Do you ever wish you could give someone advice that might go against doctrine? Like telling someone they should divorce or get an abortion for example...

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ooh, that's a good question.

No, I don't think so. But one of the things I like about my denomination is that it defines the big picture things, but leaves a lot of stuff up to the individual believer. We don't have anything like a Catholic catechism (in terms of scope and detail) to define required beliefs.

Do you think you'll go to heaven?