You Can’t Have an All-Good God Without Hell

Michie

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God is not going to constantly override our bad judgments—so there has to be something in place to account for our eternal bad judgments.

The Catholic Church has condemned what is sometimes called strong or hard universalism, the idea that we know that everybody is saved. Perhaps weak or soft universalism may be true, which is to say, perhaps everybody, at the end of the day, just so happens to be saved, though it could have been otherwise. So far as I’m aware, Catholics can maintain the soft or weak (or hopeful) universalist view. Whether there are good reasons to is a debate I will not enter now.

On the other hand, there is “infernalism,” a pejorative term for the traditional doctrine of hell. But how can hell be compatible with an all-good God? Let’s see.

Some universalists suggest that hell is impossible because of infinite opportunities for people to repent. In other words, in some sort of war of attrition, God will inevitably win us over. But this ignores a classic position—namely, the postmortem fixity of the will. The idea is that we eternally separate from God and thus eternally will the consequences and punishments thereof. Thus, properly understood, hell is not an infinite consequence for a finite sin, but rather an eternal consequence for an eternal act (orientation) of the will.

In simple terms, the account of postmortem fixity is this: to change our minds, we must either come across new information or consider the information we have from a new perspective. But a traditional understanding of the human person maintains that neither of these conditions attains upon death, when the intellect is separated from the body. In effect, we “angelize” upon death, and the orientation of our will at that point remains thereafter. Nothing “new” or “different” is going to come along to get us to consider things afresh. Although God could perform a “spiritual lobotomy” on everybody who makes the faulty judgment of willing against Gain, God—in his perfectly wise governance—orders things toward their end in accord with their nature. And our nature is one of a fallible liberty—we are free, and we are free to make mistakes, which we do.

God is not going to constantly override our faulty (though culpable) judgments, as that would amount to the constant performance of something on the order of a miracle, which would make nonsense of generating nature (particularly human nature) to begin with. And God isn’t the business of nonsense.

In my experience of introducing the concept of postmortem fixity to universalists, several of them have not only seemed unaware of this traditional teaching, but responded by calling it “strange.” The teaching, however, is not strange; rather, it follows straightforwardly from a traditional metaphysical understanding of the human person, as Edward Feser explains in this lecture. It appears to be a highly probable, if not inevitable, consequence, of good philosophical analysis of the human person.

Now, I said that our nature is one of a fallible liberty, and this too is an important point. Only God (who is subsistent goodness itself) is his own rule; God alone is naturally impeccable, always perfect. Nothing else—neither man nor angel—is like this, and so every being of created liberty must be capable of failing to consider and subsequently apply the moral rule in every instance of judgment, and therefore be capable of sin. In other words, God could no more have created an infallible free creature than he could a square circle.

To appreciate this fact is to appreciate why God, if wanting to bring about creatures like us, necessarily brings about the possibility of our sinning and turning from him. In this sense, love—which requires the uniting of free independent wills—is inherently risky, especially when only one will (God’s) is incapable of sinning.

Now, if we apply the notions above—fallible liberty and postmortem fixity—to God’s mode of governance, we can see why God not only permits our moral failures in this life, but would continue to permit our moral failure to love him in the next life. God is under no obligation to override our moral miscalculation, even if he could. Nor is God any less perfect for not doing so, since it is a matter of Catholic dogma that everyone receives sufficient grace—that is, everything he needs to love God and reject sin. Nobody fails to love God because of what God doesn’t give him; people fail to love God because they indulge in voluntary and therefore culpable ignorance (that is, fail to consider what they habitually know, and really could consider), deciding instead to love some inferior good. If that is the final choice they make, God respects it.

Again, it is not enough for the universalist to dismiss these notions as seeming archaic or strange or what have you. The claim of many universalists, after all, is that universalism is necessarily true, but these notions show that that is not the case. If we have strong independent reason to think universalism is not true—say, from Scripture and Tradition—then all we need are possibilities (not certainties) for why God allows hell and its compatibility with God’s goodness. My suggestion is that a proper understanding of finite fallible liberty, God’s being a perfectly wise governor, and the possibility of the postmortem fixity of the will provide the necessary conceptual resources we need to show the compatibility between an all-good God and the doctrine of hell.

Let me address two other arguments. I’ve heard it said by universalists that God could not be perfectly joyful if anybody were in hell, but God is perfectly joyful; ergo, there can be no one in hell. But if this argument proves anything, it proves too much. After all, if God cannot be perfectly joyful if somebody is in hell, then how can God be perfectly joyful in light of any sin or evil? The answer, obviously, is that he cannot be, and so the position makes God dependent upon creation. If that’s the case, God is no longer really God , who should be in no way dependent upon creation for his perfection. So that argument is not a good one.

Finally, justice and punishment. Part of what motivates universalists are faulty (or at least non-traditional) notions of both. Traditionally, punishment, even eternal punishment, has been seen as itself a good, itself an act of mercy and justice. Boethius stressed this point strongly: it is objectively better for a perpetrator to be punished than to get away with his crime.

As put in The Consolation of Philosophy, “The wicked, therefore, at the time when they are punished, have some good added to them, that is, the penalty itself, which by reason of its justice is good; and in the same way, when they go without punishment, they have something further in them, the very impunity of their evil, which you have admitted is evil because of its injustice . . . Therefore the wicked granted unjust impunity are much less happy than those punished with just retribution.”

If Boethius is right, then hell could—perhaps even should—be seen as God extending the most love, mercy, goodness he can to someone in a self-imposed exile. Ultimately, what would be contrary to justice (giving one what he is due) would be for somebody to eternally reject God and get away with it.

PS: For an extended rebuttal of strong-form universalism, see my recent conversation with Fr. James Rooney.

 

IoanC

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I don't see how rejecting God is a sin. God could not possibly discourage alternatives to Himself because He is not proud, but humble and happy when someone experiences success even if it is without Him.
 
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BiblePeng
the Bible says God not only created us, but it's through Him that we live, breathe, and have our being.

it's like a phone (or, ok, we need autonomy, so a robot) refusing to plug into a power outlet to get charged. You can do it, but long term, you'll slowly die/became inactive without power. Same with God. It's only through God that we can experience life, goodness, joy,
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BiblePeng
pt2
satisfaction, etc. We however were created to be eternal. So it's either eternity with God, or without Him and all the life that comes with being with God. The bible says without God, we're like a dead branch on the ground. Can we expect the branch to live thrive or produce fruit, if it's cut off from the tree?
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Wayne Gabler

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Good and evil were created when God introduced a law. For the sons of God in Ge:6 it was the Re:21 set of laws, for Adam and Eve it was the tree of knowledge law, for their children it was the 10 Commandments, once Moses was the High Priest to God.
Isa:45:6-8:
That they may know from the rising of the sun,
and from the west,
that there is none beside me.
I am the LORD,
and there is none else.
I form the light,
and create darkness:
I make peace,
and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Drop down,
ye heavens,
from above,
and let the skies pour down righteousness:
let the earth open,
and let them bring forth salvation,
and let righteousness spring up together;
I the LORD have created it.
 
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Light of the East

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Let's imagine something. Let's imagine an all-powerful, all wise, all knowing Divine Being. Let's imagine that this Being knows the beginning from the end of all things which will happen in chronological time which He will create when he creates the world. Let's further imagine that because He has this foreknowledge He knows that the creatures He creates will fall into evil, and because they fall into evil they will condemn themselves as sentient beings to an eternity of horrible painful torments. Let's also imagine that he has no reason to create these beings because he is complete and perfect within Himself.

Therefore, knowing all this, and having no need to create these beings, and knowing that when He does create them the majority of them will wind up in eternal torments, you would have to say that this is His will and his desire. In other words, He is creating them for the majority of them to suffer horrible torments forever and this is His will. He creates these beings for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to suffer. That is their end and all things are created unto an end and a purpose.

Would you describe such a Divine Being as being good?
 
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BiblePeng
Some think God only knows everything "that can be known". And if true free will exists, then your future/day isn't determined until you solidify it with the decision you make.

"knowing that when He does create them the majority of them will wind up in eternal torments, you would have to say that this is His will and his desire"
Biblically, no, that does not automatically mean that is what God wants.
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BiblePeng
pt2
(Ezekiel 33:11__NASB) Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure at all in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then should you die, house of Israel?’
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BiblePeng
pt3
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
_
if you do a study, I see the Biblical God does not always get what He wants
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IoanC

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Let's imagine something. Let's imagine an all-powerful, all wise, all knowing Divine Being. Let's imagine that this Being knows the beginning from the end of all things which will happen in chronological time which He will create when he creates the world. Let's further imagine that because He has this foreknowledge He knows that the creatures He creates will fall into evil, and because they fall into evil they will condemn themselves as sentient beings to an eternity of horrible painful torments. Let's also imagine that he has no reason to create these beings because he is complete and perfect within Himself.

Therefore, knowing all this, and having no need to create these beings, and knowing that when He does create them the majority of them will wind up in eternal torments, you would have to say that this is His will and his desire. In other words, He is creating them for the majority of them to suffer horrible torments forever and this is His will. He creates these beings for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to suffer. That is their end and all things are created unto an end and a purpose.

Would you describe such a Divine Being as being good?
Yes. God bringing into existence is good. Creature like satan are evil and destroy themselves. God offers salvation to satan, but satan refuseses it always. Being Divine God means that God will do every good thing. God cannot refuse to create or save, because He cannot perform a negative action. While, it is satan's own fault and evil that condemns Him.
 
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BiblePeng
that is not scriptural, Satan was not offered salvation. And no, God can refuse to save, because God gave us free will and won't force us to be with Him or choose Him
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IoanC
IoanC
No, satan was not given salvation. But his own good is not dependent on God. Salvation is irrelevant to a demon. God's hell is a demon's paradise.
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Light of the East

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Yes. God bringing into existence is good. Creature like satan are evil and destroy themselves. God offers salvation to satan, but satan refuseses it always. Being Divine God means that God will do every good thing. God cannot refuse to create or save, because He cannot perform a negative action. While, it is satan's own fault and evil that condemns Him.
That's not the question I asked. Nice dodge. Now answer the question. Can you honestly describe a "good" a Divine Being who would knowing create sentient beings capable of intense suffering, knowing that they would fall and fall into that suffering forever when He had no need nor reason to do so?
 
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IoanC

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That's not the question I asked. Nice dodge. Now answer the question. Can you honestly describe a "good" a Divine Being who would knowing create sentient beings capable of intense suffering, knowing that they would fall and fall into that suffering forever when He had no need nor reason to do so?
Demons, at least them, have never had free will, but have always been evil and dark. God created them out of His Great Mercy, but their own errors cost them eternal hell.
 
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BiblePeng
that's not correct, Biblically, demons and Satan used to be angels, and they rebelled (so, they had free will) against God, and that's how they become demons
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Der Alte

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Let's imagine something. Let's imagine an all-powerful, all wise, all knowing Divine Being. Let's imagine that this Being knows the beginning from the end of all things which will happen in chronological time which He will create when he creates the world. Let's further imagine that because He has this foreknowledge He knows that the creatures He creates will fall into evil, and because they fall into evil they will condemn themselves as sentient beings to an eternity of horrible painful torments. Let's also imagine that he has no reason to create these beings because he is complete and perfect within Himself.
Therefore, knowing all this, and having no need to create these beings, and knowing that when He does create them the majority of them will wind up in eternal torments, you would have to say that this is His will and his desire. In other words, He is creating them for the majority of them to suffer horrible torments forever and this is His will. He creates these beings for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to suffer. That is their end and all things are created unto an end and a purpose.
Would you describe such a Divine Being as being good?
In 1942 freedom fighters in the village of Lidice in, what is modern, Czechoslovakia assassinated Reynard Heydrich the German officer "in charge" of the village. In retaliation the German high command razed the village to the ground and murdered 342 citizens, including 82 children, every citizen in the village. I'm sure everyone would consider that a heinous act.
God did a similar thing twice, when He destroyed the world with a flood and when He destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain with fire. Do we describe God's actions the same way we describe the actions of the Germans?
 
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BiblePeng
a human dictator burning down a village of their fellow man, is not the same as God (the creator) judging His creation, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah. You need to re-read the account, these were wicked people.
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Light of the East

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In 1942 freedom fighters in the village of Lidice in, what is modern, Czechoslovakia assassinated Reynard Heydrich the German officer "in charge" of the village. In retaliation the German high command razed the village to the ground and murdered 342 citizens, including 82 children, every citizen in the village. I'm sure everyone would consider that a heinous act.
God did a similar thing twice, when He destroyed the world with a flood and when He destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plain with fire. Do we describe God's actions the same way we describe the actions of the Germans?

I find it hard to believe you would ask that question with a straight face. God's actions are righteous, the German's were not. But you continue to dodge the main point, don't you? That scenario did not answer the question at all, did it? A Divine Being who would create sentient beings capable of suffering, for the only purpose of which is to suffer, is not love. That Being would be a sadistic beast. You apparently do not understand the difference between divine justice (temporal punishment) and sadism eternal, (unrelenting suffering totally unrelated to the severity of the crime.)
 
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Der Alte

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I find it hard to believe you would ask that question with a straight face. God's actions are righteous, the German's were not. But you continue to dodge the main point, don't you? That scenario did not answer the question at all, did it? A Divine Being who would create sentient beings capable of suffering, for the only purpose of which is to suffer, is not love. That Being would be a sadistic beast. You apparently do not understand the difference between divine justice (temporal punishment) and sadism eternal, (unrelenting suffering totally unrelated to the severity of the crime.)
I quote scripture for everything I post. You don't like what scripture says go talk to the author. You do know how to do that don't you?
Evidently you, as with many other UR-ites, concentrate on out-of-context UR proof texts and ignore vss. which clearly shows universal reconciliation to be unscriptural.
E.g. Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28, Matthew 25:46
 
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Light of the East

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I quote scripture for everything I post. You don't like what scripture says go talk to the author. You do know how to do that don't you?
Evidently you, as with many other UR-ites, concentrate on out-of-context UR proof texts and ignore vss. which clearly shows universal reconciliation to be unscriptural.
E.g. Jeremiah 13:11-14, Matthew 7:21-23, Romans 1:24, Romans 1:26, Romans 1:28, Matthew 25:46
Thank you for yet another useless response. I could say it has been fun (this is my last post, I have said my piece) but it hasn't. I would tell you what I think of you, but I would rather not get banned.
 
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Michie

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10. Universalism. The ugly twin sister of Indifferentism is Universalism — the teaching that God loves everyone so much that he would never send anyone to hell. In other words, in the end, everybody will be saved. Why bother if we’re all going to get into heaven simply because God is such a nice Santa Claus-type figure in the sky who will make sure everyone succeeds? Like indifferentism, the Catholic Church is riddled with universalism and its cowardly half breed sister semi-universalism. This is the belief that there is a hell and there might just be a few people there, but there won’t be many and maybe even the ones who are there will serve their prison sentence and be allowed into heaven after all. Universalism is cowardly, un-Scriptural and un-Christian. It doesn’t take a St. Thomas Aquinas to figure out that this teaching means not only the death of evangelization, but eventually the death of the Church.

Fr. Dwight Longenecker
 
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Thank you for yet another useless response. I could say it has been fun (this is my last post, I have said my piece) but it hasn't. I would tell you what I think of you, but I would rather not get banned.
IOW you cannot address the six passages I cited which indisputably refute UR so you bug out. No problem that will not deter me from pointing out UR and other error whenever, wherever or by whomever it is posted.
 
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GenemZ

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Sin comes from our fallen nature. Unrighteous actions

Rejection of God is not simply sin. Its evil.

Jesus died for all sin.
Jesus could not die for evil.
To die for evil? He would have had to reject himself on the Cross!

No one is going to Hell for their sins.
For the Cross negated all the sins of the world.

They go to Hell for Evil. Jesus did not die for evil.
 
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