"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

So apparently neither of us knows anyone between 100 and 1200 who interprets the Bible like Protestants on even three issues.

Now I'm no patristics scholar at all, but I know that Ignatius testifies in the very early 100s to the threefold hierarchy of Bishop, Priest, Deacon; and that we should obey the Bishop as Christ and the presbytery as the Apostles; and that the true Church is called "Catholic"; and that the Roman Church "holds the presidency"; and that baptism is our "armament"; and that Rome's instructions should remain "in force"; and that the Eucharist is a Sacrifice; and that we actually consume Christ's Body and Blood; and that those who deny this are heretics.

Wasn't the structure of the church also changed very early on from the original early church of the NT age to conform to Roman senate style the also began heirarchy and male only based system,,,

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

So apparently neither of us knows anyone between 100 and 1200 who interprets the Bible like Protestants on even three issues.

Now I'm no patristics scholar at all, but I know that Ignatius testifies in the very early 100s to the threefold hierarchy of Bishop, Priest, Deacon; and that we should obey the Bishop as Christ and the presbytery as the Apostles; and that the true Church is called "Catholic"; and that the Roman Church "holds the presidency"; and that baptism is our "armament"; and that Rome's instructions should remain "in force"; and that the Eucharist is a Sacrifice; and that we actually consume Christ's Body and Blood; and that those who deny this are heretics.

The Protestant churches mostly nowadays use the word bishop as the common name of the system of administration...

 

[prodromos]

Wasn't the structure of the church also changed very early on from the original early church of the NT age to conform to Roman senate style the also began heirarchy and male only based system,,,

Which of the 12 apostles were women?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Which of the 12 apostles were women?

There were many teachers/disciples etc. You seem to fail to recognize the function of apostles .... the twelve are to be the judges of the twelve tribes of Israel. That is not a function given to the church.

 

[prodromos]

There were many teachers/disciples etc. You seem to fail to recognize the function of apostles .... the twelve are to be the judges of the twelve tribes of Israel. That is not a function given to the church.

Which of the seventy two were women?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Which of the seventy two were women?

Maybe half of them. The two on the road to Emaus invited Jesus into their house, it seem's likely they would have been a couple

 

[prodromos]

Probably half of them. The two on the road to Emaus invited Jesus into their house, it seem's likely they would have been a couple

History records they were all men. The two on the road to Emmaus were Luke the evangelist and Cleopas, the younger brother of Joseph the betrothed.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

History records they were all men. The two on the road to Emmaus were Luke the evangelist and Cleopas, the younger brother of Joseph the betrothed.

scripture please, i had heard that tradition supports Cleopas and his wife, can't remember her name just now, but his story seems to support all but what is her story....

 

[prodromos]

scripture please

Why do you limit historical sources to Scripture? There is a great deal of detail the Church has recorded which is not written in the Scriptures.

 

[laternonjuror]

I think part of the question of the OP is: where was this "church" of "those saved" for the first 1500 years of Christian history.

That's a good question, if not original!!
The Anglican Church according to the Celtic Historians arrived in Britain some few years after Christ's Crucificion . This is born out in the Councils of the Holy Roman Church,where the British Church was given pride of place because of its apostolic origin!

 

[Albion]

Why do you limit historical sources to Scripture? There is a great deal of detail the Church has recorded which is not written in the Scriptures.

OK, give us whatever you have from contemporary Roman historians or documents.

 

[laternonjuror]

Why do you limit historical sources to Scripture? There is a great deal of detail the Church has recorded which is not written in the Scriptures.

For Anglicans , we hold the scriptures to contain everything needful to salvation. We do not limit historical sources to scripture. We do say that nothing new can be added to the Faith. We do however accept things we can agree on, to be of apostolic origin!
We hold also to the Seven Councils and to the Greek Fathers of the first three centuries.The Seven Ecumenical Councils and the early fathers, we hold to complete,interpret,and explain Christ's revelations.

 

[prodromos]

OK, give us whatever you have from contemporary Roman historians or documents.

Are you also of the opinion that many of the seventy two were women?

 

[Albion]

Why do you limit historical sources to Scripture? There is a great deal of detail the Church has recorded which is not written in the Scriptures.

OK, give us whatever you have from contemporary Roman historians or documents.

Are you also of the opinion that many of the seventy two were women?

So you DON'T have any other evidence that would indicate the gender of the two disciples on the road to Emmaus??

 

[Standing Up]

So apparently neither of us knows anyone between 100 and 1200 who interprets the Bible like Protestants on even three issues.

Now I'm no patristics scholar at all, but I know that Ignatius testifies in the very early 100s to the threefold hierarchy of Bishop, Priest, Deacon; and that we should obey the Bishop as Christ and the presbytery as the Apostles; and that the true Church is called "Catholic"; and that the Roman Church "holds the presidency"; and that baptism is our "armament"; and that Rome's instructions should remain "in force"; and that the Eucharist is a Sacrifice; and that we actually consume Christ's Body and Blood; and that those who deny this are heretics.

You also don't know that the Ignatian letters are interpolated. They shouldn't be relied on for "beliefs". Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Hermas, and others of that time only know of the bishop deacon hierarchy. The priest/sacrifice snuck into the true church much later. As to obeying the bishop as Christ, Rome recently reaped that sown and tended false belief. She has lost all credibility to the true and faithful flock. As to the rest of "Ignatius" ideas, the same interpolations from centuries later are obviously faked.

http://www.bible.ca/history-ignatius-forgeries-250AD.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm
http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/ignatius.html
http://historical-jesus.info/ignatius.html

As to one actual proven person, it would probably be Tertullian, who penned the first trinity reference, the usurping by Rome, the normal birth of Christ, the fact of brothers and sisters. You know Tertullian?

 

[patricius79]

You also don't know that the Ignatian letters are interpolated. They shouldn't be relied on for "beliefs". Clement of Rome, Polycarp, Hermas, and others of that time only know of the bishop deacon hierarchy. The priest/sacrifice snuck into the true church much later. As to obeying the bishop as Christ, Rome recently reaped that sown and tended false belief. She has lost all credibility to the true and faithful flock. As to the rest of "Ignatius" ideas, the same interpolations from centuries later are obviously faked.

http://www.bible.ca/history-ignatius-forgeries-250AD.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm
http://www.earlychristianhistory.info/ignatius.html
http://historical-jesus.info/ignatius.html

As to one actual proven person, it would probably be Tertullian, who penned the first trinity reference, the usurping by Rome, the normal birth of Christ, the fact of brothers and sisters. You know Tertullian?

As far as Ignatius, I didn't know that.

Then one would Irenaeus, who said that Mary is the "cause of our salvation" and the New Eve, and that the bread and wine become Christ's Body and Blood, and that rule of faith is the Succession of Bishops, and that the Catholic Church is the Church, and that all the Churches in the whole world must agree with the Roman Bishop, and that we are saved through Baptism.

Okay, so is Tertullian your best example of someone who agrees with you as to Biblical interpretation between 100 and 1200 A.D.?

 

[JustHisKid]

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" Mat 16:18

How do Protestants explain the continuity of the Church as promised to Peter (and the disciples, presumably), that "the gates of Hell will not overcome it", when the Church seems to have faced a serious rupture, assuming the various Protestant sects are true. What kind of continuity does Luther or Calvin have with Thomas Aquinas or Anselm, for instance? Were people in the middle ages saved through the sacraments of the Church and their faith, such as they had it? If so, why the need for schism?

The gates of hell cannot hold back the kingdom of God. Gates are not offensive, they are defensive. People misunderstand this passage all the time. Gates do not attack, they are meant to keep something out. The meaning is, the gates of hell will not prevail when the Church comes against it.
The reason Peter was pointed out is because God revealed to him who Jesus was. That is the whole foundation of the Church; who Jesus is. The Church continues to this day. All believers are the Church. It is not a religion.

 

[FireDragon76]

Maybe half of them. The two on the road to Emaus invited Jesus into their house, it seem's likely they would have been a couple

That's a good example of reading current cultural norms into the past.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

That's a good example of reading current cultural norms into the past.

Peter lived with his wife and mother-in-law, altho Andrew did also live with them that is not the two on the road to Emaus.

From the text it's seen that they (even tho a different spelling ) were together at the time of the crucifixion. John 19:25 There we read, “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary, the wife of Cleopas, and Mary Magdalene.”
That's the only time the third Mary is mentioned, why else would John bring up her name.

 

[FireDragon76]

Peter lived with his wife and mother-in-law, altho Andrew did also live with them that is not the two on the road to Emaus.

From the text it's seen that they (even tho a different spelling ) were together at the time of the crucifixion. John 19:25 There we read, “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary, the wife of Cleopas, and Mary Magdalene.”
That's the only time the third Mary is mentioned, why else would John bring up her name.

That doesn't mean they travelled together to Emmaus. Middle Eastern cultures were much more homosocial than modern western societies, men did not necessarily feel the need to spend much time with their wives. If they wanted companionship, they often would be with other men as friends. Sexes were often very segregated.