"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

Root of Jesse · May 26, 2015

lesliedellow said:
He led nobody into heresy. And we have had examples of what a self serving, highly centralised, organisation can lead to very recently.

But that's not the sum-total of the Church...If it was we could agree.

Philip C · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" Mat 16:18

How do Protestants explain the continuity of the Church as promised to Peter ...

I think the problem here arises from the fact that you are missing an important part of the Scripture.

"Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church"

In NT Greek as in many other languages (French & Spanish for example) objects are either masculine or feminine. In verse 18 the text goes:

"I tell you that you are Peter (masculine) and on this rock (feminine) I will build my church."

Clearly as Jesus talks about the rock being feminine he is not and cannot be talking about Peter. The rock that Jesus is referring to is the revelation that Jesus is the Messiah and that this needs to be revealed to us spiritually by our Father in Heaven - This is the rock on which the church and our faith is built.

The reason that Jesus refers at all to Peter (which of course means 'rock') is to draw a comparison between an earthly rock (ie trying to get to God by human effort) Vs the Divine Rock (ie allowing God to reveal himself to us). Which is another way of making the same point that Jesus has in fact just made, "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven".

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2015

Philip C said:
I think the problem here arises from the fact that you are missing an important part of the Scripture.

"Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter and on this rock I will build my church"

In NT Greek as in many other languages (French & Spanish for example) objects are either masculine or feminine. In verse 18 the text goes:

"I tell you that you are Peter (masculine) and on this rock (feminine) I will build my church."

Clearly as Jesus talks about the rock being feminine he is not and cannot be talking about Peter.

There is a flaw in your posts stated reasoning. The Lord called the rock "petra" because that is the correct noun to use when speaking of a rock suitable for a foundation to rest upon. And the Lord referred to saint Peter as "pteros" because saint Peter was a male human being. There is nothing in the gender of the nouns to imply that the one cannot be the other any more than it would be incorrect to refer to a man as a mighty bulwark against his foes. Knowing as we do that a mighty bulwark has no gender at all in English. Surely the peculiarities of koine Greek noun genders cannot be the basis of your post's theology when the author of the passage (saint Matthew) makes no attempt to expand on this accidental gender disparity. Besides which, the Lord and saint Peter very likely were conversing in Aramaic, the common tongue of Palestine at the time, and in that language both the man Peter and the foundation Rock are called kepha.

The rock that Jesus is referring to is the revelation that Jesus is the Messiah and that this needs to be revealed to us spiritually by our Father in Heaven - This is the rock on which the church and our faith is built.

The reason that Jesus refers at all to Peter (which of course means 'rock') is to draw a comparison between an earthly rock (ie trying to get to God by human effort) Vs the Divine Rock (ie allowing God to reveal himself to us). Which is another way of making the same point that Jesus has in fact just made, "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven".

ThatTrueLight · May 27, 2015

There are twelve foundations, not one. Just read Revelation 21 and see for yourselves. If Peter was the Pope then there would not be twelve, but one.

And once again, the Lord has given us infinitely more than a pope, He has given us His Spirit to take us from glory to glory.

Why aim so low?

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
There are twelve foundations, not one. ...

The Lord's remark to saint Peter is about the rock upon which the church will be built and not about the foundation stones of that church.

miamited · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" Mat 16:18

How do Protestants explain the continuity of the Church as promised to Peter (and the disciples, presumably), that "the gates of Hell will not overcome it", when the Church seems to have faced a serious rupture, assuming the various Protestant sects are true. What kind of continuity does Luther or Calvin have with Thomas Aquinas or Anselm, for instance? Were people in the middle ages saved through the sacraments of the Church and their faith, such as they had it? If so, why the need for schism?

Hi FD,

When we look to see if the 'gates of hell' have prevailed against the 'church', we're going to need to define exactly what 'church' refers to. Is the 'church' some worldly defined group of people who gather together for a particular worship service, or is 'church' the body of people who are born again? If we define 'church' by the second definition, then we are assured that the gates of hell have not prevailed against them. It has always been my understanding that 'church' is translated from ekkelesia and that means those called out from a larger group. Therefore, I don't consider the catholic organization or the baptist organization or the methodist organization or the presbyterian organization to be the 'church' that Jesus and the new covenant authors were writing to and about. For me, the church is all those who have been born of the Spirit of God. There will be some of those in many of the denominations and the gates of hell have not prevailed against them. They have certainly tried, but they have not prevailed.

If we use the first definition, then yes, the visible, worldly body of people who gather under the name of some denomination has certainly been splintered, but they do still stand and so neither have the gates of hell prevailed against them.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

ThatTrueLight · May 27, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
The Lord's remark to saint Peter is about the rock upon which the church will be built and not about the foundation stones of that church.

Of course, that must be it.

ThatTrueLight · May 27, 2015

So where are all the other foundation stones in your assembly?

Peter was only one of the twelve, and an Apostle to the circumcision at that.

Denyse · May 27, 2015

I have heard a translation that says "upon this Rock" is Jesus referring to Himself. Secondly the sacraments were not given for salvation - When Jesus said, "it is finished" it really was. His blood sacrifice once and for all. You do not need to take the sacrifice again and again. You are forgiven, adopted by Gods Grace and Agape love into His family. Jesus said, 'Do this in remembrance of me', it also says, 'For as often as you take the cup and eat the bread you proclaim the lords death till he comes again'. What a wonderful way to remember what Jesus did for us and to show the world we believe it and have not forgotten. Salvation is a free gift and its once and for all. You cannot re-sacrifice Christ each Sunday by actions of taking communion - you can just remember His sacrifice with a thankful heart. It is finished!

YESLORDIWILL · May 27, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
Peter was only one of the twelve, and an Apostle to the circumcision at that.

Are you sure? Acts 15:7, And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

His first words in his first letter were, Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers....strangers, isn't that a jewish term for gentiles?

Matthew 16:19, he holds the keys...defamed for far too long, we are all about to see what he bound and what he loosed.

Albion · May 27, 2015

Denyse said:
I have heard a translation that says "upon this Rock" is Jesus referring to Himself.

Some people take that approach, but either way, it's all somewhat beside the point since there is no evidence that Christ--whatever the meaning of "rock" may be--gave Peter anything that could be passed on to someone else.

Yet that is what is claimed by those who have fashioned a "one true church" theory of denominationism, and what is the most essential element in their argument.

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
Of course, that must be it.

I am gratified that you agree.

FireDragon76 · May 27, 2015

This is getting off topic. I did not wish to debate the Papacy. I could see it being about Peter's faith or Peter himself, or both. The passage is ambiguous on that point, but its unambiguous about the indefectibility of the Church.

ThatTrueLight · May 27, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
I am gratified that you agree.

There's no other choice, your assembly can't be wrong about this.

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
There's no other choice, your assembly can't be wrong about this.

Amen.

Albion · May 27, 2015

FireDragon76 said:
This is getting off topic. I did not wish to debate the Papacy. I could see it being about Peter's faith or Peter himself, or both. The passage is ambiguous on that point, but its unambiguous about the indefectibility of the Church.

It certainly is NOT unambiguous about that. "Thou are Peter and upon this Rock..." doesn't even have anything to do with the "indefectibility" of the church, nor does the wording that follows relate either to any particular institution within Christ's church or assure us of any kind of infallibility.

ThatTrueLight · May 27, 2015

MoreCoffee said:
Amen.

And men believe it.

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
And men believe it.

Yes, and God teaches it. Let God be praised.

ThatTrueLight · May 27, 2015

I'd bet you would believe men if they told you that some guy turns bread into God's flesh and that the wine is turned into His blood.. and that it's ok if anyone gets sick, it only lasts 15 minutes or so.

MoreCoffee · May 27, 2015

ThatTrueLight said:
I'd bet you would believe men if they told you that some guy turns bread into God's flesh and that the wine is turned into His blood.. and that it's ok if anyone gets sick, it only lasts 15 minutes or so.

I believe Jesus and he walked the Earth as a man and I accept the apostles and they were men. Men wrote the holy scriptures too.

"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

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