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steve4.truth

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YHWH, the name of God, has been ommitted from all the newest Bibles and continues to be suppressed. Jehovah's witnesses (and some others) embrace the name not just because it was used almost 7000 times in the Hebrew (look it up in Strong's concordance), but because the greatest commandment is to love "the LORD" (YHWH) our God, and how much can you love a nameless mystery?
What are your thoughts? (please no ring around the rosie arguments in this thread about our hater's favorite topics--trinity, disfellowshipping etc..).
1. Did God inspire the Bible writers to use the name?
2. Did God's people in ancient times and in Jesus' times use the name?
3. Should we use the name?
4. What dangers exist in using/not using the name?
 

2ducklow

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yep
Steve said:
2. Did God's people in ancient times and in Jesus' times use the name?
Yes and no. They used the name before the Babylonian captivity, but substitued memra for YHWH so that they wouldn't have to say the word when they ran across it in the bible.
steve said:
3. Should we use the name?
yea sure.
steve said:
4. What dangers exist in using/not using the name?
well, you have less truth if you don't use the name, you can't praise YHWH unless you use his name and the bible says to praise ye YHWH. ya need lots of songs with YHWH's name in it.
 
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Gareth

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I suspect it became a bit of an inconvienient truth. Especially as the man of lawlessness was about and sowing the seeds of fledging doctrines, like the trinity, having the true name of God around would prove to be a stumbling block. Added to this the Jews had become very superstitious, so that even uttering God's name was feared to bring untold problems in the World to Come (Heb. olam haba).

The book of Jewish lore and legend states that every seven years, a Rabbi would tell his senior students the Name (ha-shem) but it went no further because of the fear of taking that name in vain. So today, no-one really knows how that name is pronounced, yet some really get upset when sincere Christinas will say it is Jehovah.
 
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Der Alte

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What people get upset about is that WTBS acknowledges that Jehovah is NOT the correct pronunciation of the covenant name of God but they continue to use it because most people are familiar with it, yet many within the org. insist that the specific name, Jehovah, must be spoken and anyone who does not pronounce that specific name is dishonoring God, etc. Your information, above about the correct pronunciation is not correct.
Jewish Encyclopedia - Names of God -YHWH.

Of the names of God in the Old Testament, that which occurs most frequently (6,823 times) is the so-called Tetragrammaton, Yhwh ((יהו&#1492, the distinctive personal name of the God of Israel. This name is commonly represented in modern translations by the form "Jehovah," which, however, is a philological impossibility (see Jehovah). This form has arisen through attempting to pronounce the consonants of the name with the vowels of Adonai (אדני = "Lord"), which the Masorites have inserted in the text, indicating thereby that Adonai was to be read (as a "peri perpetuum") instead of Yhwh. When the name Adonai itself precedes, to avoid repetition of this name, Yhwh is written by the Masorites with the vowels of Elohim, in which case Elohim is read instead of Yhwh. In consequence of this Masoretic reading the authorized and revised English versions (though not the American edition of the revised version) render Yhwh by the word "Lord" in the great majority of cases.

This name, according to the narrative in Ex. iii. (E), was made known to Moses in a vision at Horeb. In another, parallel narrative (Ex. vi. 2, 3, P) it is stated that the name was not known to the Patriarchs. It is used by one of the documentary sources of Genesis (J), but scarcely if at all by the others. Its use is avoided by some later writers also. It does not occur in Ecclesiastes, and in Daniel is found only in ch. ix. The writer of Chronicles shows a preference for the form Elohim, and in Ps. xlii.-lxxxiii. Elohim occurs much more frequently than Yhwh, probably having been substituted in some places for the latter name, as in Ps. liii. (comp. Ps. xiv.).

In appearance, Yhwh (יהו&#1492 is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being,probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem הו&#1492. The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "ḥai Yhwh" (= "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).

If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh (יהו&#1492 or Yahaweh (יהו&#1492. From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (י&#1492 is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho יהו and Jo or Yo (יו , contracted from יה&#1493, which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו = יה&#1493 in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name 'Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").


JewishEncyclopedia.com - NAMES OF GOD.

Jewish Encyclopedia-JEHOVAH:

A mispronunciation (introduced by Christian theologians, but almost entirely disregarded by the Jews) of the Hebrew "Yhwh," the (ineffable) name of God (the Tetragrammaton or "Shem ha-Meforash"). This pronunciation is grammatically impossible; it arose through pronouncing the vowels of the "tsere" (marginal reading of the Masorites: אדהי = "Adonay") with the consonants of the "ketib" (text-reading: יהוה = "Yhwh")—"Adonay" (the Lord) being substituted with one exception wherever Yhwh occurs in the Biblical and liturgical books. "Adonay" presents the vowels "shewa" (the composite under the guttural א becomes simple under the י), "kholem," and "khametz," and these give the reading יהוה (= "Jehovah"). Sometimes, when the two names יהוה and אדהי occur together, the former is pointed with "khatef segol" under the י —thus, יהוה (="Jehovah")—to indicate that in this combination it is to be pronounced "Elohim" (אלהים). These substitutions of "Adonay"and "Elohim" for Yhwh were devised to avoid the profanation of the Ineffable Name (hence יהוה is also written הי , or even די, and read "ha-Shem" = "the Name ").
The reading "Jehovah" is a comparatively recent invention. The earlier Christian commentators report that the Tetragrammaton was written but not pronounced by the Jews (see Theodoret, "Question. xv. in Ex." [Field, "Hexapla," i. 90, to Ex. vi. 3]; Jerome, "Præfatio Regnorum," and his letter to Marcellus, "Epistola," 136, where he notices that "PIPI" [= ΠIΠI = יהוה] is presented in Greek manuscripts; Origen, see "Hexapla" to Ps. lxxi. 18 and Isa. i. 2; comp. concordance to LXX. by Hatch and Redpath, under ΠIΠI, which occasionally takes the place of the usual κύριος, in Philo's Bible quotations; κύριος = "Adonay" is the regular translation; see also Aquila).

"Jehovah" is generally held to have been the invention of Pope Leo X.'s confessor, Peter Galatin ("De Arcanis Catholicæ Veritatis," 1518, folio xliii.), who was followed in the use of this hybrid form by Fagius (= Büchlein, 1504-49). Drusius (= Van der Driesche, 1550-1616) was the first to ascribe to Peter Galatin the use of "Jehovah," and this view has been taken since his days (comp. Hastings, "Dict. Bible," ii. 199, s.v. "God"; Gesenius-Buhl, "Handwörterb." 1899, p. 311; see Drusius on the tetragrammaton in his "Critici Sacri, i. 2, col. 344). But it seems that even before Galatin the name "Jehovah" had been in common use (see Drusius, l.c. notes to col. 351). It is found in Raymond Martin's "Pugio Fidei." written in 1270 (Paris, 1651, iii., pt. ii., ch. 3, p. 448; comp. T. Prat in "Dictionnaire de la Bible," s.v.). See also Names of God.

JewishEncyclopedia.com - JEHOVAH:
 
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2ducklow

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You got it all wrong Der Alter. The reason JW's call God Jehovah and not Yahweh, is because if they did then they would be called YWs. And everytime someone refered to them as YW's it would sound like a question. YW , why W's? Why be a JW? YW?
 
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Der Alte

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Y Not?
 
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What people get upset about is that WTBS acknowledges that Jehovah is NOT the correct pronunciation of the covenant name of God

Then, shouldn't people place their blame on the King James Version of the bible, where we got that pronunciation? Remember, it still appears in the KJV 4 times.

Also, if you're going to be picky about "Jehovah" having a "Y" instead of a "J" ... should you not be equally picky about the translation of a translation that is Jesus' name (which was originally "Yeshua")?

I don't see how one can accept the name "Jesus" ... but deny the name "Jehovah" because of the Y/J translation BOTH names posses.
 
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Der Alte

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This doesn't even begin to address my posts. Jesus, is a transliteration of the Greek "Iesous," which is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Yeshua." Greek does not have an "sh" sound, as in "shut," so the Hebrew, shin, becomes a Greek, sigma. In Greek, feminine names end with "a" so Yeshua, ending in "a" is masculinized by becoming "s." The letter "J" comes through the German translation where the letter "J" is pronounced as the English "Y." So when Luther translated the Bible into German the Greek "Iesous" became "Jesus", which is pronounced "Yaysoos."

As I pointed out above, Jewish scholars state the word "Jehovah" is NOT a transliteration of anything. "Jehovah" results from trying to pronounce the consonants of YHWH, with the vowel points of "Adonai," which were inserted in the Hebrew text to signal a Jew reading scripture to say "Adonai" whenever YHWH occurred in the text. As has been pointed out in the article I cited "Jehovah" is a philological impossibility.

And once again I do not care how anyone pronounces YHWH, unless they insist that is the only correct way, and everyone must use that pronunciation, and anyone who does not use that pronunciation is dishonoring God, etc.
 
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And once again I do not care how anyone pronounces YHWH, unless they insist that is the only correct way, and everyone must use that pronunciation, and anyone who does not use that pronunciation is dishonoring God, etc.

As I said before, it's the way the King James Version had translated it quite a while back, and it is considered "the most widely accepted english pronunciation.

What makes you think someone's "insisting that it's the only correct way?" Certainly not the JWs or the WBTS... the last article they wrote on the topic was:

the 7/15 2005 article writes:
They're not saying that "we know for a fact that it is definitely 'Jehovah' and no other pronunciation is possible." ... but "Jehovah" is the pronunciation that has been most widely adopted as the english pronunciation... therefore, it's what we use.
 
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2ducklow

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In the circles I run in, born again, spirit filled (i.e. tounge speakers) Yahweh is used much much more than jehovah. Jehovah is passee in the pentecostal realm. To us, Jeshovah is what KJV only people use. Or JW's. So for me to call YHWH jehovah would be to step back in time and accept what I know cannot possibly be the correct pronunciation.

on the other hand, I can't see calling Jesus yeshua, even though yeshua is closer to what he was called when he was on earth. all i can say is i don 't feel comfortabole using jehovah or yeshua.

You say that JW's don't insist that YHWH be pronounced jehovah, but i have run into JW's who insist on it. You have said elsewhere that you aren't required to go door to door, but he said JW's are required to do a certain amount of hours per week gong door to door unless they are sick or physically unable to do it. Your stories aren't matching up , and I don't know what to make of it?

I have had a quite extensive conversation with that JW at work some decade ago or so. I remember distinctly him insisting that if you don't call him jehovah, then you aren't worshiping him cause that's his name. And he was hard core JW. He started working 20 hours a week instead of 40 so he could do more door to door stuff. He riped a cross of a catholic ladys chest cause he didn't like catholics I guess, he refused the company 4th of july picinic, comapny christmass gifts and dinner. he said he and his wife weren't going to have kids cause the JW org. said the end of t he world was coming soon. ONe time he asked me if I knew what God's name meant and I told him and he just snickered, when I asked him what it was ithen , he said it was a secret only JW's were allowed to know and woudnt tell me. I don't knw what ha was about. But I'm thinkin that hard core totally dedicated JW's are privy to certain things the average JW isn't told, I know this is the case in mormonism and islam, and shriners etc. maybe that's whats going on.

he was def. hard core to the max. He said something to me that I found rather odd. He said he had been going door to door faithfully for years and hadn't got even one person to come to kingdom hall. Man, Id take that as a hint from god if it happened to me. Try somethin else would be my thought.
 
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So for me to call YHWH jehovah would be to step back in time and accept what I know cannot possibly be the correct pronunciation.
How do you know "Jehovah" "cannot possibly be the correct pronunciation?" Because the vowels were guessed at doesn't mean that those set of vowels cannot possibly be the right ones, and some other arbitrary set of vowels must be the correct one. After that, you're just left with whether to pronounce it with a J or a Y. You calling the Father "Yahweh" instead of "Jehovah" doesn't offend me a bit. You're at least on the right track, which is better than most religions out there who I've heard teach that God doesn't have a personal name at all.
on the other hand, I can't see calling Jesus yeshua, even though yeshua is closer to what he was called when he was on earth.
Bit of a double-standard, no?
You say that JW's don't insist that YHWH be pronounced jehovah, but i have run into JW's who insist on it.
I'm sure some have all sorts of personal preferences. Personally, I utterly loathe the french language. That doesn't mean "JWs hate french words" ... just me. Likewise, you might have run into an individual that decided "any pronunciation other than "Jehovah" is unacceptable." However, if that person were to visit JWs around the world (germany or mexico, for example), I'm sure they'd find that even we pronounce it differently in different languages. Or perhaps, what they were attempting to communicate isn't what you inferred. Perhaps they were simply trying to prove that "Jehovah" wasn't necessarily "impossible as a pronunciation" and perhaps you misunderstood their intentions.

Any time someone seems unreasonable, it's quite possible the listener may simply be misunderstanding something... or the speaker may be communicating their thoughts imperfectly... most likely a combination of the two. (then again some people are just plain unreasonable)

Either way... we certainly all don't. I don't... the watchtower's written quite a few articles stating that it doesn't... and I haven't seen any JWs here insist that NO pronunciation other than "Jehovah" is possible. Therefore, it seems your past experience isn't indicative of our group as a whole.
You have said elsewhere that you aren't required to go door to door, but he said JW's are required to do a certain amount of hours per week gong door to door unless they are sick or physically unable to do it.
Going door to door is the most common method for individuals to preach to the public. And, we are expected to preach according to our capability. However, there is no "minimum number of hours." Quite a few people preach 40+ hours per month. Quite a few people maybe only 10. The only reason we report these hours are for the elders to monitor the trends of the congregation. "How much" you do isn't really important... but if they notice your time suddenly increase significantly, they'll make a note to congratulate you. If they notice your time suddenly decrease from YOUR average, it may be a sign that you could use some help. Perhaps you're going through a rough time and there could be something they can do to help. You don't "Get in trouble for not meeting a quota" ... it's just so that they can watch for changes that could indicate a person in need of some sort of help.

ALSO... with all the time we spend, it's nice at the end of the month/year to hear how much effort has been put into the work quantified. Just tonight it was announced that this last service year, we spent 12 million more hours preaching than we did last year! (I didn't have a pen so I didn't write down all the numbers)
I have had a quite extensive conversation with that JW at work some decade ago or so. I remember distinctly him insisting that if you don't call him jehovah, then you aren't worshiping him cause that's his name.
Are you sure that was the intent of what he was trying to say? The reason a JW would usually say something like that is because quite a lot of "mainstream Christianity" doesn't even know that the Father even has a name. The fact that the tetragrammeton has basically been hidden is something we're offended by. God's name appears over 6800 times in the hebrew scriptures, yet has been replaced with "lord" in all but 4 places in many translations (such as the KJV)... and his name's been removed entirely from the bible in other translations (such as the New KJV). THAT is what we don't like. Removing it entirely. Now, if a translation listed it as "Yahweh" instead of "Jehovah" ... that's not necessarily wrong. As long as the name's not -hidden-. That's what we don't like. Don't take the Father out of his own book. But if you spell it different... oh well, your guess is as good as ours.
He riped a cross of a catholic ladys chest cause he didn't like catholics I guess
I'm not too fond of Catholicism myself, but that sort of physical aggression is inappropriate. If he would've been seen, he would've gotten a pretty stern talking to for something like that. And, if he was without remorse, he could even be disfellowshipped for such action until he fixed his violent attitude. We don't approve of crosses. But it's not our place to "rip them off a person's chest." It's just not something we would wear ourselves because it's a bit too close to idolatry for us.
he said he and his wife weren't going to have kids cause the JW org. said the end of t he world was coming soon.
It COULD be. It might not. There's a line between "being prepared" and "being paranoid."
ONe time he asked me if I knew what God's name meant and I told him and he just snickered, when I asked him what it was ithen , he said it was a secret only JW's were allowed to know and woudnt tell me.
A secret!? Either your memory is wrong, or he was off his rocker. Our whole purpose is to preach about God... not keep secrets. That by itself would make me not trust a word he said. (Btw, God's name, however pronounced essentially means "He causes become" denoting his role as creator. The verse in Deuteronomy often translated as "I am who I am" is more closely translated "I am becoming that which I will become." In a sense, he was applying the definition of his name... his name isn't actually "I am." But his name MEANS "he who causes to become.")
I'm thinkin that hard core totally dedicated JW's are privy to certain things the average JW isn't told, I know this is the case in mormonism and islam, and shriners etc. maybe that's whats going on.
Unlike scientologists, no. These are openly discussed topics... and people are -encouraged- to learn these things from the beginning. I've been a witness all my life, most of my family are or were elders, I've been through dozens of congregations, and across the board... no.

A person like what you described... who would keep something about God a -secret- would be a horrible witness... not a "good" one.
he was def. hard core to the max.
"Hardcore" or "extreme" are -not- traits indicative of a good servant of God. Our meekness should only EVER be outdone for our love. Love is the fulfillment of the law, and the entirety of the law is only a footnote to the two greatest commandments... to love God and to love our neighbors (even the sinful ones).
 
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Der Alte

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Which of the many WTBS publications did these two quotes come from I would like to look them up on the library CD?
 
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2ducklow

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Maybe, but really the reason I use Yahweh/Jesus is cause everyone in my church does. I'd be out of step if I did otherwise, plus all the songs with Yahweh in them.

Gregorian said:
I'm sure some have all sorts of personal preferences. Personally, I utterly loathe the french language. That doesn't mean "JWs hate french words" ... just me.
A c'est peut-etre parceque vous etes anglais?
I use Rotherham, he always translates YHWH as yahweh.
Others say it means 'I shall be that I shall be."
AS an outsider, who has never been in a kingdom hall in his life, I have to decide who is more accurate, your detractors,i.e. xJW's, or JW's. My inclination is that both sides are warping the truth in their favor. Someone who is for something has a tendency to overlook or mitigate bad things about what he is for, and someone who is against something, has a tendency to exagerate how bad it is. . It's no biggie to me either way, I'm not a JW and have no intenetion of becoming one. Being pentecostal, I'm in a totally different world than JWism.
 
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Which of the many WTBS publications did these two quotes come from I would like to look them up on the library CD?

First one was the watchtower from 9/1/2008, second one was 07/15/2005. I'm not sure what exactly I searched for... but the library's search feature is actually quite amazing! I think it was "YHWH AND translation" (no quotes). Works just like an internet search engine... you can put a series of words in to find any article containing each word in any order... or put them in quotes for a specific phrase.

Cross-reference scriptures with a single click... search the bible for any phrase or keyword... It's just a great tool. I just wish they would include other translations (most importantly an interlinear) to make cross-referencing a bit easier... but that'd be hard on a single CD.
 
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Maybe, but really the reason I use Yahweh/Jesus is cause everyone in my church does. I'd be out of step if I did otherwise, plus all the songs with Yahweh in them.
That's fine... as long as you wouldn't bash another church for if they preferred "Jehovah/Yeshua."

A c'est peut-etre parceque vous etes anglais?
Something along the liens of "Is it because you're english?"

You know how some people don't like nails on a chalkboard? And other people don't like when people intentionally hit cats with their cars? I feel the same way about silent letters... and french openly flaunts them... every bloody word... you just don't pronounce the whole last half! WHO'S IDEA WAS THAT!? And france is RIGHT next to Germany!!! Germans pronounce EVERY SINGLE LETTER... always. Wanna know how to spell something german? EXACTLY how it sounds. Every time. Wanna know how to spell something in french? No one knows... because there's no reason for it... just through some X's and extra crap in there you have no intention on saying... EXCEPT words like "Vis-a-vis" (Viz-a-vee) Why... is the first "vis" pronounced SO much differently than the second "vis." That entire language was intentionally designed JUST to frustrate me.
And, that objectivity's all I ask for. Even without looking directly at the facts, you can tell a lot about how trust-worthy a person's story by how objective it is. Do they seem calm and logical? Or do they sound like a conspiracy theorist? I catch JWs doing this sometimes... talking about what other churches believe and they'll say how it's so weird how "other churches know the trinity's nowhere in the bible, but they chose to believe it anyway." As if someone makes the conscious decision TO believe something they know is wrong. However, that's not the case... they believe it because THEY interpret it to be correct. Generally when a person tells you how dumb someone else is for believing something... then they explain it in some crazy, fantastic, obviously ridiculous way... it's probably not true. (Except when someone explains scientology and mormonism... that's legitimately just plain nuts.... Sorry mormon friends... I love you guys as people! But the whole "gold plates/native americans are really israelites/seeing stones" thing... it's just way too far-fetched for me)


Lol... or "JWish?"
 
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Gaby Light

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I was disappointed that steve4.truths good question was brushed away with a competition over the pronounciation of Jehovah, Yahweh, Jeshua, etc etc...
Silly. For the record I know Jehovahs witnesses do NOT have a problem with the pronouciation of Gods name as "Yahweh". They just choose for official purposes to use "Jehovah".. Trust me I have experience with this, Don't jump to conclusions over Jehovahs Witnesses beliefs and standards

I am truely interested in the consequence of not using gods name, especially in the new testament, and in general conversation or in pastoral education. Although it should not be inserted into every New Testament version, I believe this for scholarly and historical accuracy reasons. I know not of any mainstream bibles that contain Gods name in the old testament and that is disappointing.

It is an exaggeration to say mainstream christianity rejects Gods name entirely. Even the most traditional congregations sing hymns about "Jehovah", and Hallelu"jah" is used often in praise songs.

Just some thoughts anyway....
 
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steve4.truth

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thankyou for returning to the original point! It is true that mainstream churches know the name, but it bothers me that they don't use it. It seems to make it worse that everyone knows God's name. If people knew my name but refered to me as "man" all the time, I would wonder what's going on! Do they just not want to get personal with me? Did someone tell them my name is a curse word? This is so much more an insult to an ancient Hebrew because their name embodied their reputation. to purposely avoid it would be an open insult.

maybe I could ask those in this thread who argue over which pronounciation is "correct", How often do you call on His name--in your prayers and talking to other people? Should we use it several times each day? Does our relationship with God depend on it?
 
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