Yeshua and the Torah

[theseed]

I'm starting to se what CIF and Zemirah have been speaking about. I read your links Zimerah and I found one of my own at jfj.

http://www.jfjonline.org/pub/issues/06-02/torahofgod.htm


I got the gist of it, and I confess that I actually did see the contrast and comparison of Yeshua to the Torah . JFJ says that Torah observance does not equate to legalims and that our relationship to the Torah has changed rather than the Torah itself.

It is also worth mentioning that the translation of the word torah to nomos in Greek, law, and from thence to lex, which is Latin for law, has perpetuated the unhappy myth that Torah necessarily means legalistic observance.

Returning to an earlier theme, Malachi's summons, "Return to me and I will return to you," is fulfilled by Y'shua from both sides. As God's Torah, Jesus summons us to return. As the perfect, Torah-keeping man, he returns on our behalf, and includes us in his teshuvah, as we believe in him.

It is for this reason that the believing person's relationship to the Law has changed so radically. R. Kearsley writes: "…Paul gives recognition to the Torah's power both to provoke disobedience and to produce condemnation…he also announces a radical break with the law both as it concerns the individual believer and the redemptive economy."[size=-1]28[/size] Put simply, Messiah's work does not change the law's relationship to us, but our relationship to it, replacing the rabbinic idea of Torah and Torah keeping as a means to salvation with faith in Jesus who is, as Romans 10:4 has it, "the end (telos) of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." The word telos does not merely indicate the point at which a thing is complete, but rather the goal toward which the process was pointing all along. Put another way, the goal toward which the Torah pointed all along is Jesus the Messiah, and his Kingdom. Reflecting on the significance of this, O. Kvarme writes: "The Torah is to be realized in a new righteousness, and this righteousness belongs to the Kingdom of God, the new salvific realm in which the Torah is fulfilled by Jesus."[size=-1]29[/size]

For the record, I know that even though the Law produces sin and and reveals our condemnation (sin), it is us who are have the sinful nature, The Law remains perfect.

When I first believed in Christ, I was reading about Jesus from The Simple English New Testament, and I saw that Christiantiy was not about legalism and works for salvation, but a gift of God. I was by myself, and so not directly influence by any person. At the same time I was doing my search, the 700 club was on (Christian TV show) and at the end a man spoked how we could ask Jesus to come and save us, and this comes by believing. (If we did not believe, we could not truly ask). And so, this is the day that I entered into YHWH covenant. And I knew that nothing could seperate me from the Love-Covenant.

According to this site, http://www.yashanet.com/library/under10.htm. The Torah is the whole bible, the unified word of God, and not just The Pentateuch. But at the same time, I find this site harsh.

Keeping this Biblical principle in mind, The Torah shows that God's position on the Sabbath is clear. It is Friday evening to Saturday evening and we are to set it aside for Him as a Holy Day. History shows that man changed this out of disrespect for Judaism and Torah. Christians don't bother to learn this history (or don't care) accepting the lie that God changed this. As a result, they violate God's Sabbath every weekend, while carrying His Torah in their Bibles on their way into "Sunday church services" that preach "freedom FROM the Torah."

It may be true that the church aurthorities at the time were anti-semitic and did change the Sabboth, but I also know that Jesus rose from the grave on Sunday, and that he says that "We must worship in the Spirit and in the Truth" and not in one place, as the Jews use to say, and I say nor onlly on one day. As it says in Romans 14, God's kingdom is not about eating or drinking, or what day we esteem to be best, but rightousness. What is rightousness here? I believe it is the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galations 5.22-23), love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such, there is no law. The NT is clear on what is sinful and immoral, and displeases God. I do agree with this site that churches are twisting the scriptures to justify things like homosexuality, but the misunderstanding of the Law is only part of it I think. Because the churches that I am around and in, (protestant) are not advacting any such thing, but in fact, are like George W. Bush and pushing for laws against it.

Well, I'm done with this soap box. I don't wish to debate with anybody but I am willing to engage in edifying conversation.

 

[theseed]

I Just had a revelation
Yeshua = Word = Seed (Luke 8.11) = Seed of Israel = Yeshua

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I Just had a revelation
Yeshua = Word = Seed (Luke 8.11) = Seed of Israel = Yeshua

Theseed,
I apologize to you for being too harsh. I was not aiming at you really. My gripe is with church leadership who teaches things according to the antisimtic foundations of the church fathers of the 3d and 4th centuries.

Paul and Yeshua both teach us that within Judaism, there were a great number of things that had been added to the Law of God, which made it a "burden that no man could bear". Where God said of the Law as he gave it, that it is not a burden that it was a joy. The Jews had perverted the law, which was meant to be instruction from God, into a salvation process, (which God never intended nor do I believe He honored in that way.) The Tanahk itself teaches that we are saved only through faith, and after that we begin to live in a way pleasing to God by doing what he says is righteous. The very meaning of rigteous is "To be obedient to divine law, obeying the commandments of God" (see Strongs). But we don't do it in an effort to earn our salvation. Remember paul says that those who had done so had perverted the law,"ignoing the salvation that comes through faith they go about making a way of righteousness for themselves."

Allow me to address Ro 14 for a moment. Because when people challenge Messianics they often quote Ro 14, about not judging another mans servant, and esteeming one day and another man esteemeth not that day. They usually use this to refute the observance of Sabbath.

The Letter to the Romans is writen to Gentiles who are sharing the synagogue with Jews, both saved and unsaved Jews at that. In order to enter into this setting they had to observe the things listed in the apostolic decree of Act 15:20. These include one commandment from the ten, (no Idol worship) one from Moral law,(no sexual immorality especially in connection with worship as was done by the pagans) and two Kosher food laws, (also associated with Pagan worship) then they are to enter fellowship with the Jews, and are to learn Torah (Moses ) who will be taught to them in the synagogues of their own cities every Sabbath. (The church often ignores this part of the acts 15 proclamation)

More background information: Israel was a modified-Theocracy. It had a king for military reasons but all of its function of Goverment is guided by their faith in God and His law. In the U.S. we have national holidays such as independence day, presidents day, flag day, Martin Luther King Jr. day, ect. They are not religious, but national.
Israel had many special days, national holidays, but because it is a theocracy, those days become part of the religion as well, like Purim, Chanucha, New moon (rosh Kodesh) Tu B'Av, Tisha B,Av, ect. ect. The Jews observed all these days, they esteemed them, the Gentles did not estem them.

Nowhere in Rom 14 is the Sabbath in view.Sabbath is not being discussed. (although all holy days are technically Sabbaths, I am speaking of the weekly sabbath, the 7th day) The discussion is concerning these extra days that I have illustrated. Now what is forgotten at times is that Paul is addressing the Gentile believers in Rome, and he is chewing them out for using their freedom as Gentiles to not observe these extra things, to make a point that they were stronger in their faith, and were criticising the Jewish members for observing them. This offensive behavior was causing the Jews to reject the Gospel. Remember that there are unsaved Jews in this synagogue too. Paul says that their eating all foods when their Jewish brothers (the weaker) are offended by it makes their eating it sinful because they are doing harm to them in their faith and understanding. This is a major concern for Paul who desires above all things that his Jewish brothers would come to faith. He even offers that he would die in hell without God, if in exchange his bothers would accept Yeshua and be saved.

And yet what Paul addresses in Ro 14, is what many Gentiles do today. They come in using Ro 14 to charge against those who choose to keep the law, and tell us that we have lost our salvation, and made salvation through faith in Yeshua of no effect by obeying the comandments. They use the very scripture RO14 that Paul was telling the Gentiles NOT to do this, and not to make accusations against those who DO keep/ observe those things. Paul actually encouages even the Gentiles to seek the better way and to follow the righteousness of the law, but warns them at the same time to avoid falling into the tap of becoming legalistic, trying to secure their own salvation through it, not to let the keeping of law become a pride issue.

Many here are not Jewish by birth and were raised in Gentile homes, in Christian churches, but have come to a new understanding about what purpose the Law serves in their lives having Faith in Yeshua and allowing Him to interpret the Law to us, for it is writen on our hearts as well. Some of us will "Become as a Jew" for the sake of winning them to Yeshua. Which means that even if we do not believe that a certain day such as Purim is a biblical feast day, for it isn't, but was added much later, we allow that our Jewish brothers are blessed in observing it because they do so unto God, and we are free to join with them in this if we choose to, because we are all one family before the Lord. How much better to share with them an event that was wrot by the hand of God, than to christianize a Pagan day and make that a tradition as was done in the Churches. It is this very Pagan (against Torah) doctrines of the church that prevents most Jews from accepting their own Messiah, because He is always presented in this Anti Toah way, by an Anti Torah church. We can put an end to that when we realize that it is not supposed to be that way. All the first churces for almost 300 years were very Judaic in every way.

Blessings to you my brother,

CIF

 

[theseed]

Paul and Yeshua both teach us that within Judaism, there were a great number of things that had been added to the Law of God, which made it a "burden that no man could bear".

Yes, Y'shua said "Come to me you, who have heavy burdens and I will give you rest, for my burden is light" (This would have been a huge threat to the Pharisees at the time).

Which means that even if we do not believe that a certain day such as Purim is a biblical feast day, for it isn't, but was added much later, we allow that our Jewish brothers are blessed in observing it because they do so unto God, and we are free to join with them in this if we choose to, because we are all one family before the Lord. How much better to share with them an event that was wrot by the hand of God, than to christianize a Pagan day and make that a tradition as was done in the churches

So you don't pass judgment on the "weaker" brother about what day they celebrate, such a Purim? I agree that we should not attempt to undermine the Jewish culture and way of life, I believe that when Paul said that he became has a Jew or Gentile to win some for Christ, he meant that he took the Message of God, the Gospel and used thier culture to do so (Acts 17). I do say it is more valid to observe the Sabbath on Friday night than it is on Sunday morning, but despite past antisemtism of Constatine, I don't believe God condmens me or others for attending church on Sunday. Many do it to honor thier parents, and many, like myself, do it unto God.

Many people don't know how the tradition came about, they simply come to God with a childlike faith and they worship God on Sunday, with no intention of being antinsemtic, and the days of Sun worship have long been forgoten, but the semantics remain..

I like you, don't agree with many things that the early church, and middle age church did, just like the Pharisees corrupted Judiasm, so to can Christian leaders corrupt Christianity.

Some of us will "Become as a Jew" for the sake of winning them to Yeshua.

If I ever hear a Jew object I will explain to him what I understand, the best that I can, about Jewish Christianity, and how Torah and Yeshua relate. I will confess that the early church was anti-semetic and erred, and many do today.

Many here are not Jewish by birth and were raised in Gentile homes, in Christian churches, but have come to a new understanding about what purpose the Law serves in their lives having Faith in Yeshua and allowing Him to interpret the Law to us, for it is writen on our hearts as well.

I agree, and many Christians agree with me and many do not when I say that we are to interpret the Scriptures for ourselves with the help of Ruak, who works closely with Yeshua. For centurys, the Roman Catholic church has taught that "The Church" has authority over the scriptures. I believe that only the Apostles had such authority over Yeshua's teachings, and thier authority could not be passed down.


Shaom, my brother.

theseed

 

[ShirChadash]

Seed, I just want to say.. I love your humble spirit Many blessings and shalom to you.


love in Yeshua,
~z~

 

[Charlesinflorida]

So you don't pass judgment on the "weaker" brother about what day they celebrate, such a Purim? I agree that we should not attempt to undermine the Jewish culture and way of life, I believe that when Paul said that he became has a Jew or Gentile to win some for Christ, he meant that he took the Message of God, the Gospel and used thier culture to do so (Acts 17). I do say it is more valid to observe the Sabbath on Friday night than it is on Sunday morning, but despite past antisemtism of Constatine, I don't believe God condmens me or others for attending church on Sunday. Many do it to honor thier parents, and many, like myself, do it unto God.

I think the church IS supposed to keep the Sabbath of God. It certainly is a no contest situation when all of scripture calls for it, and certainly to replace it with a Pagan day is out of the Question. It was one of the best moves HaSatan ever did to destroy the Jewish people and to keep them away from Messiah.Change Sabath to Sunday and you just shut the door on them. Remember the scriptues about the antichrist "And he will change times and seasons" Sabbaths and feast days?

Here is something that I am begining to understand in a slightly different way because of my current studies. Gentiles associate their connection to God' people by the Abrahamic covenant, in that the promise is made to him that the Gentiles would be brought near,or included in the blessing to many nations. (Gentiles).(This is accomplished through faith in Messiah)
Also it is clear that Abraham was saved through Faith. However after being saved he went on to obey the commandments of God, because obedience is the fruit of true faith.

The promise to Abraham is Unilateral, that is God will do it and abraham is not required to uphold a condition. Abraham needs only believe and circumcise himself and his children as a sign of this covenant relationship. Moreover it is refered to as covenants (plural) The way this covenant works though is that God promises to provide a way for his people which includes even the gentiles, to be blessed, sort of like enabling them to access the place of blessing. It is almost like getting a green card to work. Now you have a chance to enter the work force, and acquire the fruit of labor.
Hold that thought, because what hapens next is Moses. Up until this time none of Abrahams children reap much benefit from the abrahamic covenant. In act they are slaves in Egypt and do not have the land they were promised or anything. But the covenant made though Moses is the same as the one with abraham in it's provisions, only this time, it has a bilateral feature. The people called the children of Israel (which includes a mixed multitude of Gentiles) must be obedient to the Laws, or instructions of God. And by living this way, they will receive blessings. God can not bless the unrighteous, or the unrighteous nations. He must give them the "green card", to become righteous so that the blessing can flow. Torah is that card and the tool. It is Gods instrucions in righteousness. The pomise is still there that all the nations (gentiles) will also be blessed by this. All we have to do is enter into this coveant by faith in Messiah, just as Abraham did, and begin following Gods instructions. The covenant of Abraham and the Covenant of Moshe, fit together and form a single provision. Like a coin, one side is Justification through Faith (Abraham) and the otherside is sanctification (Moshe) and the result is fulfillment of the promises of God.

God called a people, a mixed multitude of Jews and gentiles who believed in the God of Israel, and brought them out of Egypt and headed them off to the promised land. He called all of them the Children of Israel, with no distinction or separate provision for the Gentiles. It is that way today. And Torah stands as pivotal for every believer who desires the blessings of God. You want all that God has for you, then be righteous. How? Do as he commanded.

Now we have to be clear that there are regulation in Torah that apply to the priesthood and the sacrificial service, and those we can not be and need not be concerned with. However the Sabbath, and the high sabbaths (feast and fasts) are there for us today. So are the Kosher laws, moral laws, laws of Justice, laws concerning charities, ect. These are for us, a great gift to us so that we can become the righteous people who are able to receive Gods blessings.

Many people don't know how the tradition came about, they simply come to God with a childlike faith and they worship God on Sunday, with no intention of being antinsemtic, and the days of Sun worship have long been forgoten, but the semantics remain..

I like you, don't agree with many things that the early church, and middle age church did, just like the Pharisees corrupted Judiasm, so to can Christian leaders corrupt Christianity.

I understand what you are saying and have sat in many pews on Sunday morning because I didn't know better. But there really is no excuse. If we read the scriptures wthout filtering it through Church doctrine, we would all come to the same conlusion, "Hey, God wants us to meet with Him on Sabbath Not Sunday." It sits right square in the middle of the Ten commandments between how to honor and love God and How to honor and love our neighbors.

I agree, and many Christians agree with me and many do not when I say that we are to interpret the Scriptures for ourselves with the help of Ruak, who works closely with Yeshua. For centurys, the Roman Catholic church has taught that "The Church" has authority over the scriptures. I believe that only the Apostles had such authority over Yeshua's teachings, and thier authority could not be passed down.

Yes but the Ruach will not teach you anything that is against Torah either, because Torah is written on your heart, Jer 31:31,. Trouble is people filter everything through what they already understand. Even what the spirit might say. So, with their understanding already askew from corrupt doctrine, the leading of the spirit is nulled out. I have spoken to a number of christians and explained to them about Sabbath and you know what their response has been? They say, "Gee, you know I have always sort of known that in my heart, and thought hat we should observe Sabbath, but I thought the church can't be wrong and so I dismissed it."

Thanks for being so open to our discussions.

CIF

 

[theseed]

It was one of the best moves HaSatan ever did to destroy the Jewish people and to keep them away from Messiah

But what about the Non Jews? Would we force Jewish cutlure on the lost, and tell them that they can't be Christian if they do not observe the Sabbath? Or Christmas? Or Easter? What did Paul mean when he said, "I became all things to all people, that I might win some for Christ"? I'm not so sure that Romans 14 is a one way street that was only to be applied to the "weaker" Jews.

I found this article at jfjonline:

Not all Jewish believers in Y'shua insisted that Gentile believers become Jewish in their practice and lifestyle. That a sizable number held to the supremacy of the Law, there is no doubt. But the leading elder of the Jerusalem congregation took a position contrary to those who insisted that Gentiles become Jewish. James declared, "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles" (Acts 15:19). He did ask Gentile believers to refrain from immorality and to have the greatest respect for blood, synonymous with life; but beyond these directives, nothing else was added. In other words, James concurred with Paul that Gentile believers do not need to take on the Jewish lifestyle.

There is more, and I have not had time to read it all. I must go to class now, but I will be back to tonight.


Shalom

 

[Charlesinflorida]

But what about the Non Jews? Would we force Jewish cutlure on the lost, and tell them that they can't be Christian if they do not observe the Sabbath? Or Christmas? Or Easter?

Well I certainly would not push "Christmas" on anyone. But I know what you mean. Let's look a the model that was given for us. Act 15:20, says give them basic moral directives to demonstrate their willing intention to turn away from their former sinful ways, so that they are not an offense to more advanced blievers. And then instruct them to go to the local synagogue in their own towns where they can study Torah each Sabbath. This is what the first Gentile converts were given. There is no reason that we should avoid that decision today, just beause the church teaches the Torah is obsolete. I will paste it for you, because I am not sure you have noticed the line about Torah study.

[20] But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. [21] For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

If you brought someone to the Lord, wouldn't you tell them to turn from their old sinful ways and begin following Gods word. I you didn't, if you just told them, you are now saved, so just go on living just like you were before because God has taken care of everything, well they are going to be just as lost in a week or two as they were before you lead them to christ. As you know it is important to get a new believer into fellowship so that they can learn a righteous lifestyle and begin living in a way that will please the Lord.

What did Paul mean when he said, "I became all things to all people, that I might win some for Christ"? I'm not so sure that Romans 14 is a one way street that was only to be applied to the "weaker" Jews.

Well lets first define what Paul was not doing. He was not being false with people, observing Torah when with the Jews and not obeying it when with Gentiles. Remember Paul repremanded Peter for this sort of activity. Paul also remains Torah observant through out his life as we see in several places and as he himself testified. Paul is consistent and honest.

What Paul means in this is that he was able to empathise with all people. To the Jews he could understand their concerns, which probably were considerable in connection with the inclusion of the gentiles, deterioration of the Jewish community and unique identity through Torah. He was able to empathise with those under the law, put himself in their shoes, for example gentiles who had preiously converted to Judaism and undergone circumcison in order to be included in the covenants, and now this is not being required, which devalues what they had gone through. He could understand the gentile Pagans who were coming to faith and had a lot to learn and had to separate from family and friends in order to live a righteous lifestyle.Paul was able to see things from their point of view and to patiently work with them to resolve the seeming conlicts.

Again in case you missed it above, let me state again. Keeping Torah is not a means of salvation. Salvation is through faith in God by Yeshua the Messiah. Once you are saved, God wants to bless you as a new covenant member. He can not bless the unrighteous. So he gives us Torah His instructions in how to live righteously, so that he is able to bless us and fulfill the pomises made to us through Abraham.

We are saved through faith, but we still need to be sanctified. Sanctiication is the result of obedience to Gods word. His word is Torah. The covenant with Abraham is about salvation through faith. The covenant through Moshe, is about sanctification.

CIF

 

[theseed]

Well I certainly would not push "Christmas" on anyone.

But you push to have all Christians worship God on the Sabbath only? Can not we keep every day Holy, as Paul suggest some do in Romans 14? I think Paul is primarily talking about Jewish Christians in Romans 14, but the key to all the arguments is found in Romans 15, "accept one another as Christ accepted you"

We are saved through faith, but we still need to be sanctified. Sanctiication is the result of obedience to Gods word. His word is Torah. The covenant with Abraham is about salvation through faith. The covenant through Moshe, is about sanctification.

Does not santification come from God? Are we not made unto God works?

Gal. 5
18 But if you are (34) led by the Spirit, (35) you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: (36) immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, (37) sorcery, enmities, (38) strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, (39) disputes, dissensions, (40) factions,
21 envying, (41) drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not (42) inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But (43) the fruit of the Spirit is (44) love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, (45) self-control; against such things (46) there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to (47) Christ Jesus have (48) crucified the flesh with its passions and (49) desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk (50) by the Spirit.

What does it mean that those who are under the Spirit are not under the Law? Charles C. Ryrie says (study bible) that it is the Spirit that santifies and not the Law.

If you brought someone to the Lord, wouldn't you tell them to turn from their old sinful ways and begin following Gods word.

Is it a sin to worship God on Sunday? Why is Sunday a Pagan day? Sure, it was Pagan 1700 years ago, but why is it still Pagan now?

Remember the scriptues about the antichrist "And he will change times and seasons" Sabbaths and feast days?

I looked for these verses but could not find them.

 

[Henaynei]

Dan'iel 7:25 He shall speak words against Ha`Elyon, and shall wear out the holy ones of Ha`Elyon; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.

 

[theseed]

How do we know that this is not an anti-Jesus/Anti-Christ program? and Not just a Anti-Jewish. Even if every Jesus believer was Jewish, the Ant-Messiah would still be able to do this, and still would. He could pervert the Jewish Holidays as well as the Christian, even today, we see how perverted Christmas has become in American society.

 

[theseed]

Jewish Resistance to the Gospel
http://www.jfjonline.org/pastors/readingroom/resistance.htm


Charles, it has become clear to me after reading this article that the issue about the Sabbath is miniscule in comparison to all Satan as done (is not Satan a Greek name?).
Even if all of Christendom were to change over to the Sabbath, the roots and hate of Christianity would not be undone. This article, though has been most helpful in explaining how to take the Gospel to the Jews. It would seem that I need to pray for miracles and the working of the Holy Spirit.

high lights of the article

"Salvation is of the Jews." (John 4:22) No wonder the enemy of God has, throughout history, attempted to destroy the Jewish people.

There is a third spiritual factor that we must confess is a mystery, though the Scriptures speak openly of it. There exists a special blindness, unique to the Jewish people. Paul, himself, calls it a mystery when he says, "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the gentiles have come in." (Romans 11:25) The veil is a scriptural metaphor for this hardening: "Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away."

By ruling of the Israeli Supreme Court, December 25th, 1989 any Jew who professes faith in Jesus Christ is no longer eligible for Israeli citizenship as a Jew under the Law of Return. Jewish Christians are refused access to any formal Jewish community assistance and they are denied the right to be buried in a Jewish cemetery.

Further, efforts to create as much cultural distance as possible between the Jewish and Christian communities are made by blurring the lines between social, political and theological differences between the two. Jewish people tend to be more liberal than most Christians when it comes to politics and social mores. Jewish leaders make the most of those differences to present Christianity in as unappealing and alien light as possible to Jewish people. Unfortunately, many Christians contribute to this impression without realizing that using religious clout to tout a particular party line has convinced many Jews that a vote for Jesus is a vote for a political party they may not be inclined to endorse.

On a historical and sociological level, it is important for Christians to understand and to deal honestly with the horrors of anti-Semitism. Yet there must be a balanced approach to this history. The Scriptures teach, "No longer will it be said the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge." Christians do not bear responsibility for past horrors of anti-Semitism any more than Jews today bear responsibility for the crucifixion of Christ.

Finally, the power of prayer works miracles in overcoming Jewish resistance to the gospel.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

But you push to have all Christians worship God on the Sabbath only? Can not we keep every day Holy, as Paul suggest some do in Romans 14? I think Paul is primarily talking about Jewish Christians in Romans 14, but the key to all the arguments is found in Romans 15, "accept one another as Christ accepted you"

It is not I but the Lord himself who tells us that we are to observe Sabbath for all our gereations. And this is for the native born and the "Ger", the foreigner who dwells with you, those who have faith in God. You see God includes as sons all those who have faith. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, or covenant heritage. No one is saved because they were fortunate enough to be born a Jew. On the contrary some of them will be left outside, while he gathers from the east and the west gentiles who will sit at table with Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Throughout scripture, and all the covenants Gods choice, his adoption of sons, is what matters, and that is for our part an act of faith. Faith is expressed by believing God. Believing God includes doing what he says. There is one God, one faith, one messiah, one Torah, one Kingdom of heaven. All who are faith take part in all of these.

Does not santification come from God? Are we not made unto God works?
What does it mean that those who are under the Spirit are not under the Law? Charles C. Ryrie says (study bible) that it is the Spirit that santifies and not the Law.

You have a couple of things tagged together that are not related or in context. ryrie if you quoted him correctly is wrong. The spirit sanctifies us by changing us from within and empowering us to be obedeint to God. What God expects the results of this to be is what is described in the Torah. The Lord is God, He is Holy. He is full of grace toward those who trust Him. If we trust Him we should believe Him and be obedient sons. He says over and over in all the commandments "This is to be observed by the native born (Jew) and by the GER, the foreigner that comes near in faith."
Our santification comes through an act of our will as we surender to the working of God in our life by the Holy spirit which is the gift of God for all those who are saved through faith in Yeshua the Messiah.
Look what Paul says about the Tanahk, Old Testament which inludes as its heart, Torah. Remember there was no such thing as a new testament when he wrote this letter. He is talking OLD TESTAMENT
II Tim 3: [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Instructions in righteouness, that we are furnished for the performace of Good works.

Is it a sin to worship God on Sunday? Why is Sunday a Pagan day? Sure, it was Pagan 1700 years ago, but why is it still Pagan now?

No it is not sin to worship God on Sunday so long as you do not do that at the exclusion of keeping Sabbath. Sabbath is a separate issue, and is not neccessarily a day of worship, but a day of rest. Certainly we use that time for worship, but it was not commanded that we worship on Sabbath. Actually the temple sacrificial system was initially the way of worship. After the temple was destroyed and Post Messiah, we worship through obedience, fellowship with Him, and through study. These we do all the time I think.

God chose Sabbath as a day set apart, so that our time is sanctified. It breaks the endless cycle of days. A Dog does not know what day of the week it is. A slave does not know what day it is, beause every day is a work day. But God called us to be sons and not slaves, so he breaks our time into days that are common and one day that is special. He does the same thing for the seasons and months, with the feast days. Through all of these God sanctifies our time. There are holy days and common days.

In marriage sexual relations are sanctified. We all have sexual drives. But to pursue them whenever and with whomever we feel inclined makes us a slave to our sexual urges. Through mariage, sex becomes a holy act, sanctified before God.

Eating can be toally unholy. We can allow our appitites control us or we can control our appitites. We sanctify our eating and make it a holy act by Kosher foods, by limiting things that we eat to that which is clean and avoiding that which is unclean. So all of our eating and avoiding eating other things sanctify the act of eating.

And so on it goes God wants everything we do, to be a holy act, done in a way that sets us apart from the unsaved, from the pagans and those who hate God, and from animals.

Sunday was a Pagan day when it was instituted, I know you agree. Today it is still the high holy day for many Pagan cults. This has not changed. There are still many Pagans in the world even in the western nations. I believe that God chose Sabbath and that is good enough reason to do it. But it is interesting that God calls it a sign or a mark of distinction that identifies those who have been adopted by him and are sons. I suspect that the mark of the beast in Revelation could be Sunday worship, as opposed to Sabbath which is Gods mark. Because Sunday is directly associated with those who have rejected Gods covenant and his instructions and have claimed to be Gods new Israel. The church has laid claim to the blessings of the covenant but has declined to assume the responsibility of the covenants.

The fact is that if we read Yeshua and Paul and all the new Testament in is proper Hebraic context and mindset, nowhere do we see anyone telling us not to be obedient to Gods commandments. We see distinctions made between proper use of the Law and the perversion of legalism, we see a difference between inclusion by election or adoption by God and the illegitimate belief that it is ethnicity that counts. There is one God, One Messiah and one people of God. Those people are saved through faith, and are obedient to God.

Here is a description of the true saints of the last days. The devil is out to destroy them, but look at how they are known.

REV 12: [17] And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

They do both and they are one group of people.

Again:

Rev 14: [12] Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Shalom,

CIF

 

[Charlesinflorida]

I just read your last two posts,

Yes the problem is much bigger than just Sabbath. And it has 2000 years of blood making the road to reconciliation very slippery. It will be Gods hand that will acheive this. Our responsibilty though is to correct for ourselves the things that we know are wrong in our chistian religion, The reliigon that proclaims Messiah, and allow God to work in the Jews. WE can pray or them.

When we become aware of doctrinal error, and antisemitism or replacement theology, we should denounce that and realign ourselves with what God says we are to do. The very best place to discover the truth and what God wants is written for us in two places. Remember by two or three witnesses a thing is established? Well Gods Torah is written in the scrolls for us and it is also written on our hearts and witnessed to by the spirit of Yeshua in us. WE know the truth when we read it if we take off our doctrinal glasses that are made from ancient church traditions.

When we read the words of these men, we should be really alarmed that we maintain any of their doctrine. Marcion in the 2nd century convinced the chistian world that the god of the old testament and the god of the new testament were not the same god. He made all of his followers tear out all the books of the old and new except the words of Paul. And finally after some years he was declared a heretic. But many of his teachings that he introduced remain to this day, such as his opinions on the law and covenants and who Israel is. The writings of Martin Luther, founder of protestantism, were quoted word for word by Hitler to justify the murder of 6.5 million innocent Jews. His writings against Jews and his seathing hatred has inspired untold million more since then to die. Yet we take their doctrines as having more authority for the believer than the word of God. But we don't have to, no sir, we don't have to. Faith is an individual thing. We all get to make a choice. Our salvation is not dependent on the church at the corner or the one over on the highway, or any denomination. It is the promise and election of God that counts.And those we access through aith and obedience. "They keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah"

CIF

 

[theseed]

CIF, in all your posts, here, I keep reading that if one does not keep the commandments, specifically the Sabbath, then they don't have faith in Christ. Is this what you are saying

 

[theseed]

Early Christians, especially Jewish converts, continued to meet in assemblies on the Sabbath Day. On the evening of the day of Christ's resurrection, the disciples assembled together . This was the first assembly on Sunday. They were in fear and Jesus came among them and gave them the Holy Spirit (John 20:19-32). Acts 20:7 tells us that at least one Gentile church, the church at Troas (Troy) met on the first day of the week to break bread. Breaking bread means that they observed Holy Communion on that day. Paul preached to them on the first day of the week at that assembly.

(Heb 4:9-11) There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {10} For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. {11} Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The writer is making that point that Jesus has provided our rest. Read Hebrews 3:1 through 4:16 to get the better understanding. There is not room here to go through both chapters. The word here for rest is sabbatismos which means "sabbath-rest". Jesus Christ has provided our Sabbath rest because of the work He did on the cross. Our Sabbath rest is eternity with God. Without Jesus' work at Calvary, we would have no Sabbath rest. Therefore Jesus is our Sabbath rest.

With Jesus, the spirit of the fourth commandment is fulfilled. God provided the Sabbath so we can rest. The ultimate rest, of which the Old Covenant Sabbath is a type or shadow, is our eternity with Christ. Christ fulfilled that type. Since He fulfilled it, we only need Him. Since Jesus fulfilled it, we no longer need to observe the Sabbath as provided in the Law.

In Acts 20.7, there was an assembly on the first day of the week, and they broke bread. What do you think about this ?

CIF, I think it would be best if we discontinued this conversation, for frear that it might become a debate. For now, I must say that I disagree with you. I believe that I am where God's wants me to be, at my local church, and I see God's hand opening many doors. My Baptist Church strongly believes that it should use the culture of people to reach them and draw them to Jesus Christ. The method = culture, the message = Bible.

Last Passover, a member of our church, who is an Israeli Missionary spent several Sunday night services teaching us about Passover, and he (and others) led us in a Passover meal, and He was a Jewish Chritian, and he had been using the Jewish ways to reach the Jews, and from what I remember, he was having success. He has answered. God's call to go to Israel, and he obeyed, and God has blessed him in his efforts. I will continue to pray that his efforts will be fruitful, as God works .

I will allow you to have the final rebuttal to this post . I will continue to weigh these things that I have heard in my heart and mind--the concerns that you have brought to my attention .

Blessings ,

Sunday is the day most churches celebrate Jesus. It is OK to worship on any day of the week and we are not limited to a specific day or number of days to assemble for worship. We may assemble and worship on any day of the week. We should not forsake this assembling together. It should be done regularly. We should still gather together for praise, worship, and Bible study, but the day is not important:
(Heb 10:24-25) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: {25} Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

http://www.bibleword.org/thesabbath.htm

 

[Charlesinflorida]

It has been good conversing with you Theseed. You are a gentle spirit.

Blessings to you in Yeshua,

CIF

 

[WildCelt]

I am certianly not seeking to fuel a debate, but would someone respond to the quotes in theseed's last post? I have been reading this thread with great interest.

Our Torah Club (ala FFOZ), especially including my wife and I, have been struggling with the issue of Shabbat for some time now. We have some of the same questions theseed has raised, but CIF makes some great points. I think my wife and I are personally being convicted to keep the Shabbat, but we are unsure on how exactly to do it.

Thank you both for discussing this!

 

[theseed]

It has been good conversing with you Theseed. You are a gentle spirit.

Blessings to you in Yeshua,

CIF

Thank you.

 

[IKTCA]

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