YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

Tkjjc · Nov 24, 2007

PROPHECYKID said:
The accuser of the brethren is Satan. That is what the bible says. The Law does not accuse. It sets standard from which you can be accused when you fall short.
If God has to judge, he must use a standard. God's Law is the standard. But he also gives us his grace so that if we fall short of the standard we will be justified. The man who rejects Grace will be accused and found guilty by the Law.
But as Paul says, just because God's grace picks us up when we fall short of the standard does than mean we should violate the standard. No, but instead we hold up the standard.

"Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

Is Moses Satan? I think not. He wrote the Law of the 12 Tribes of Israel, so he is the accuser of it as well.

But what about after the Mosaic Laws?
Who will accuse those not believing in Jesus, or Moses?

in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

But what of the believer in Christ? Do they have an accuser?

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Ouch! That speaks volumes. What about judgement? Do Christians go through this as well? Maybe....

"Do not judge so that you will not be judged.

"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.

PROPHECYKID · Nov 24, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Read what is said about the Law and why it was put in the ark of the covenant..
Deu 31:25 that Moses commanded the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.

I am happy that you brought up that text. I have been trying to porve many times that there are 2 laws that the bible often speaks of.
1. The 10 commandments. ( God's Law)
2. Moses Law. ( Ceremonial Law)

They are not the same.
The book of the law was written by Moses in a book and placed on the side of the ark. Where was God's Law placed.

Deu 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
Deu 10:3 And I made an ark of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.
Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

The law that Moses wrote in a book was placed on the side of the ark. When ceremonies was done, this law was read and put back on the side of the ark. God's 10 commandments were in the ark, it could never be touched.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Which book? The book that the law was written in. This Law was a shadow of things to come.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Moses Law contained instruction on how sacrifices were to be done, which days the sacrifices were to be made on, yearly sabbath days for special offerings, high holy days like the day of atonement, what kind of offerings for various sins, meat offerings, drink offerings. All these things pointed to Christ, the ultimate sacrifice. The new covenant does not involve these things because Christ's blood is the blood of the new covenant.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

We must understand that Moses Law was the shadow of things to come and not God's 10 commandments law. Moses Law was against us and not God's. When you abide in a country the laws of the land are there to protect you. The laws are not against you. God's Law os not against us. If everyone kept God's 10 commandments then there would be perfect peace on the earth.

Messianic Jewboy · Nov 25, 2007

Tkjjc said:
This one:

"The Law and the Prophets {were proclaimed} until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."

"From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force."

"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

So, this is His teaching, for if the First was His, by right of writing it, He can modify or change it. If the covenant has changed, so there also must be a change in the Law. Hebrews is great for this study.

The Law and the Prophets cannot EVER be abolished. I do understand this. For if it is abolished, Jesus of Nazareth could not have "kept" it perfectly. Past and present tense. It will remain, forever engraved in stone, until the very last human being is reconciled to the Father. Now you know why it cannot be abolished. Until heaven and earth "pass away". Of course He would say this. Basic Logic dictates this.

But as Hebrews 9 says, a death must occur to bring in the Second Covenant? Sadly it had to have been His death. But this was how much He LOVES you and me. This is why we follow His simple yet basic commandments, spoken by His Word, in His ministry.

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

"You are My friends if you do what I command you.

"This I command you, that you love one another.

"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.

This is a whole lot different than the teaching of the Torah Mosaic Law. In that, God was God. Now it is personal. We are adopted as sons, and can call Him Father, if we Love His Son Jesus, and abide in that Love.

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

The Law and the Prophets cannot EVER be abolished. I do understand this. For if it is abolished, Jesus of Nazareth could not have "kept" it perfectly. Past and present tense. It will remain, forever engraved in stone, until the very last human being is reconciled to the Father. Now you know why it cannot be abolished. Until heaven and earth "pass away". Of course He would say this. Basic Logic dictates this.

Yes engraved in stone but what about Him writing it on our hearts? Are you saying He's writing a different Torah on our hearts now?

So, this is His teaching, for if the First was His, by right of writing it, He can modify or change it. If the covenant has changed, so there also must be a change in the Law. Hebrews is great for this study.

Hebrews is a great study only if you study it in it's context it was intended.

"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

So it appears you believe God's burden at one time was heavy, that at one time God wasn't gentle and humble in heart. At one time one wasn't able to find rest rest for their souls.

This is a whole lot different than the teaching of the Torah Mosaic Law. In that, God was God. Now it is personal. We are adopted as sons, and can call Him Father, if we Love His Son Jesus, and abide in that Love.

The command was:

“The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear"

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

A Prophet like me(Moses) but of course WAY greater/

A prophet is automatically proven false if the prophet claims to have been sent by God to advocate any form of idolatry, or proclaims any precept of the Torah to be abrogated permanently.

In other words if Yeshua taught you to break His Torah then He automatically is a false prophet according to the very law He created. With your belief you might as well say "throw out your Torah's everyone, we have Yeshua now. He changed. He said reduced the commandments into two which means the others are extinct" "boy the Apostle's missed the boat for some 60 years and those that are being led to keep the Torah by His Spirit you are missing the boat too"

So the question is the Yeshua you know teaching you to break and to teach others to break His Torah?

Well if so then you will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Marc

IamAdopted · Nov 25, 2007

PROPHECYKID said:
I am happy that you brought up that text. I have been trying to porve many times that there are 2 laws that the bible often speaks of.
1. The 10 commandments. ( God's Law)
2. Moses Law. ( Ceremonial Law)

They are not the same.
The book of the law was written by Moses in a book and placed on the side of the ark. Where was God's Law placed.

Deu 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
Deu 10:3 And I made an ark of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.
Deu 10:4 And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.
Deu 10:5 And I turned myself and came down from the mount, and put the tables in the ark which I had made; and there they be, as the LORD commanded me.

The law that Moses wrote in a book was placed on the side of the ark. When ceremonies was done, this law was read and put back on the side of the ark. God's 10 commandments were in the ark, it could never be touched.

Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Which book? The book that the law was written in. This Law was a shadow of things to come.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Moses Law contained instruction on how sacrifices were to be done, which days the sacrifices were to be made on, yearly sabbath days for special offerings, high holy days like the day of atonement, what kind of offerings for various sins, meat offerings, drink offerings. All these things pointed to Christ, the ultimate sacrifice. The new covenant does not involve these things because Christ's blood is the blood of the new covenant.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

We must understand that Moses Law was the shadow of things to come and not God's 10 commandments law. Moses Law was against us and not God's. When you abide in a country the laws of the land are there to protect you. The laws are not against you. God's Law os not against us. If everyone kept God's 10 commandments then there would be perfect peace on the earth.

Actually the law is from the tribe of Levi..Jesus is from the tribe of Judah.. This is why since we have a new High Preist that the law has also changed. Including the 10. We are dead to the law. We are dead to sin. The law has not jurisdicion over us any more. None. Christ paid the penalty. We are now In Him. We are married to Christ and not the law..

IamAdopted · Nov 25, 2007

Deu 10:2 And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

The law no longer is the convenant.. The new covenant paid the penalty of the Old Covenant and now we are under the new. His Blood

PROPHECYKID · Nov 25, 2007

IamAdopted said:
The law no longer is the convenant.. The new covenant paid the penalty of the Old Covenant and now we are under the new. His Blood

So you therefore do not see a difference between the Law that was placed on the side of the ark and the Law that was placed in the ark

Messianic Jewboy · Nov 25, 2007

IamAdopted said:
The law no longer is the convenant.. The new covenant paid the penalty of the Old Covenant and now we are under the new. His Blood

How could you say that when scripture says the Torah is in both covenants?

What does the New Covenant say about the Torah?

Marc

IamAdopted · Nov 25, 2007

mpossoff said:
How could you say that when scripture says the Torah is in both covenants?

What does the New Covenant say about the Torah?

Marc

The new covenant is His blood.. He paid the penalty for the law.. Once for all time.. For what the law did was accuse us before God and what Christ did was pay that debt.. How awesome is He Huh? Thank you Jesus

Messianic Jewboy · Nov 25, 2007

IamAdopted said:
The new covenant is His blood.. He paid the penalty for the law.. Once for all time.. For what the law did was accuse us before God and what Christ did was pay that debt.. How awesome is He Huh? Thank you Jesus

IAA according to the New Covenant is the Torah in it or not?

Marc

IamAdopted · Nov 25, 2007

mpossoff said:
IAA according to the New Covenant is the Torah in it or not?

Marc

Is it in it? Yup we see Paul trying to explain exactly what we have been trying to explain. Does this new covenant allow us to sin? God forbid. For now that Christ lives in us and we have been cruciried with Him and raised with Him we are dead to sin.. We walk in the newness of life..

PROPHECYKID · Nov 25, 2007

IamAdopted said:
The new covenant is His blood.. He paid the penalty for the law.. Once for all time.. For what the law did was accuse us before God and what Christ did was pay that debt.. How awesome is He Huh? Thank you Jesus

Can you answer my question please?

Messianic Jewboy · Nov 25, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Is it in it? Yup we see Paul trying to explain exactly what we have been trying to explain. Does this new covenant allow us to sin? God forbid. For now that Christ lives in us and we have been cruciried with Him and raised with Him we are dead to sin.. We walk in the newness of life..

So then is the Torah being written on our hearts by Him?

Marc

IamAdopted · Nov 25, 2007

mpossoff said:
So then is the Torah being written on our hearts by Him?

Marc

Above and beyond the Torah Marc.. Love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.. It is not enough to just not murder or Kill. We are to do good to those whom want to do this.. We are to pray for them.. It is not enough to not commit adultry.. We are not to even have lustful thoughts... So the law of Love is yes Shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.. The Law is every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God marc.. For it is His declaration.. His Law His truth.. Every word.. We are to Hide Gods word in our hearts... Not just the Torah Law Marc.. Every word..

IamAdopted · Nov 25, 2007

This being said it is no longer us that do this according to the flesh But the newness of Life in Christ Jesus..

Tkjjc · Nov 25, 2007

mpossoff said:
And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

The Law and the Prophets cannot EVER be abolished. I do understand this. For if it is abolished, Jesus of Nazareth could not have "kept" it perfectly. Past and present tense. It will remain, forever engraved in stone, until the very last human being is reconciled to the Father. Now you know why it cannot be abolished. Until heaven and earth "pass away". Of course He would say this. Basic Logic dictates this.

Yes engraved in stone but what about Him writing it on our hearts? Are you saying He's writing a different Torah on our hearts now?

So, this is His teaching, for if the First was His, by right of writing it, He can modify or change it. If the covenant has changed, so there also must be a change in the Law. Hebrews is great for this study.

Hebrews is a great study only if you study it in it's context it was intended.

"Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

So it appears you believe God's burden at one time was heavy, that at one time God wasn't gentle and humble in heart. At one time one wasn't able to find rest rest for their souls.

This is a whole lot different than the teaching of the Torah Mosaic Law. In that, God was God. Now it is personal. We are adopted as sons, and can call Him Father, if we Love His Son Jesus, and abide in that Love.

The command was:

The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear"

I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds. (Hebrews 1:1-2)

A Prophet like me(Moses) but of course WAY greater/

A prophet is automatically proven false if the prophet claims to have been sent by God to advocate any form of idolatry, or proclaims any precept of the Torah to be abrogated permanently.

In other words if Yeshua taught you to break His Torah then He automatically is a false prophet according to the very law He created. With your belief you might as well say "throw out your Torah's everyone, we have Yeshua now. He changed. He said reduced the commandments into two which means the others are extinct" "boy the Apostle's missed the boat for some 60 years and those that are being led to keep the Torah by His Spirit you are missing the boat too"

So the question is the Yeshua you know teaching you to break and to teach others to break His Torah?

Well if so then you will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Marc

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

I haven't made it that far into the Revelation of Jesus Christ yet, to answer or respond to this.

Hebrews is a great study only if you study it in it's context it was intended.

Yes, this is most certainly true. This was written to Jewish people who didn't want to give up their religious practice. This explains to the average practicing Jew, why one give up Mosaic and Levitical Laws, Ordinances, and Sacrifices. But, you must be willing to SEE what it is saying, and not wish for it to say something it doesn't.

So it appears you believe God's burden at one time was heavy, that at one time God wasn't gentle and humble in heart. At one time one wasn't able to find rest rest for their souls.

Don't do the same thing you accused me of doing Marc. You should presume nothing about my relationship with Father, nor His Son. You don't know, so don't be a hypocrite.I quoted Jesus in the book of John, and if you read Jesus, you would have known that.

So the question is the Yeshua you know teaching you to break and to teach others to break His Torah?

Well if so then you will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Well, first off, you haven't even defined Torah, like I asked you to. I answered your question with scripture. I am absolutely 100% positive that my heart is right with Father. Are you? I actually would never "teach" that people don't have to do anything contrary to the Word. Why be one of those people who eyes are scaled, when the Truth smacks you in the face. Read it yourself. You pull this verse out time and time again.

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

That word you see there translated Lawlessness or Iniquity in some Bibles, isn't even the word you proclaim it to be. It isn't Torahlessness. You base your entire argument off this one verse. And you don't even know the verse you are using. That word dear brother is:

anomia translated meaning
1) the condition of without law
a) because ignorant of it
b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Not this word that YOU ARE thinking of:

anomos translated meaning
1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked

Now, I never said we don't have any LAWS. I just said yours don't apply to me. And if you don't understand that, I would ask Father for help. This verse below uses the same word Jesus quoted, and guess what? IT IS A MYSTERY. Something which must be revealed.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains {will do so} until he is taken out of the way.

This is when the blinders come OFF. You then see what the mystery is.

Well, Marc. I have made my point time and time again. Outside of the 2 Commandments issued by Jesus, in both the OT and NT which is to LOVE, FIRST FATHER, THEN BROTHER, my Laws are not your Laws, and IIA's Laws are not my Laws. Things which convict me are not the same as convicts you, or anyone else. There might be common factors, but not Identical.

How would I covet someones oxen, or his ass, or his maidservant, or his man servant? I mean seriously? Just using a little pun here. This was written in stone. I suppose by the letter of the LAW, that I can be rest assured that that particular rule, would never be broken. This isn't the stone ages past. With new things come the need for new laws. My generation will have different laws than that of my grandfather, and my grandkids will be different than mine. But bottom line is the 2 primary ones don't get broken, which is why they were HAMMERED HOME, by Jesus Himself.

You say if He taught against the Torah, He would be a false prophet? He FOLLOWED TORAH TO HIS DEATH!!! ALL the way. That would be blasphemous to assume, to say the least.

I think during every Christians walk, they experience doubt about who and what Jesus actually came to do and was. The message was TOO radical and far reaching. It was TOO deep to understand with carnal minds. It was TOO revolutionary, for those in power.

But His is the Glory of the Father revealed. His is what Father gave Him, which was EVERYTHING. Nothing created without Him, and everything for Him. He Glorified Father while He was here, and Father Glorified Him throughout the Universe. My King, My Savior, My Messiah, My Lamb, My Priest. Praise be His Name!!

Messianic Jewboy · Nov 25, 2007

IamAdopted said:
Above and beyond the Torah Marc.. Love is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.. It is not enough to just not murder or Kill. We are to do good to those whom want to do this.. We are to pray for them.. It is not enough to not commit adultry.. We are not to even have lustful thoughts... So the law of Love is yes Shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.. The Law is every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God marc.. For it is His declaration.. His Law His truth.. Every word.. We are to Hide Gods word in our hearts... Not just the Torah Law Marc.. Every word..

IAA I asked is the Torah being written on our hearts by Him?

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people

When God through Jerimiah said this are you saying He was referring to a different 'law'?

Marc

Messianic Jewboy · Nov 25, 2007

Tkjjc said:
I haven't made it that far into the Revelation of Jesus Christ yet, to answer or respond to this.

Yes, this is most certainly true. This was written to Jewish people who didn't want to give up their religious practice. This explains to the average practicing Jew, why one give up Mosaic and Levitical Laws, Ordinances, and Sacrifices. But, you must be willing to SEE what it is saying, and not wish for it to say something it doesn't.

Don't do the same thing you accused me of doing Marc. You should presume nothing about my relationship with Father, nor His Son. You don't know, so don't be a hypocrite.I quoted Jesus in the book of John, and if you read Jesus, you would have known that.

Well, first off, you haven't even defined Torah, like I asked you to. I answered your question with scripture. I am absolutely 100% positive that my heart is right with Father. Are you? I actually would never "teach" that people don't have to do anything contrary to the Word. Why be one of those people who eyes are scaled, when the Truth smacks you in the face. Read it yourself. You pull this verse out time and time again.

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

That word you see there translated Lawlessness or Iniquity in some Bibles, isn't even the word you proclaim it to be. It isn't Torahlessness. You base your entire argument off this one verse. And you don't even know the verse you are using. That word dear brother is:

anomia translated meaning
1) the condition of without law
a) because ignorant of it
b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Not this word that YOU ARE thinking of:

anomos translated meaning
1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked

Now, I never said we don't have any LAWS. I just said yours don't apply to me. And if you don't understand that, I would ask Father for help. This verse below uses the same word Jesus quoted, and guess what? IT IS A MYSTERY. Something which must be revealed.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains {will do so} until he is taken out of the way.

This is when the blinders come OFF. You then see what the mystery is.

Well, Marc. I have made my point time and time again. Outside of the 2 Commandments issued by Jesus, in both the OT and NT which is to LOVE, FIRST FATHER, THEN BROTHER, my Laws are not your Laws, and IIA's Laws are not my Laws. Things which convict me are not the same as convicts you, or anyone else. There might be common factors, but not Identical.

How would I covet someones oxen, or his ass, or his maidservant, or his man servant? I mean seriously? Just using a little pun here. This was written in stone. I suppose by the letter of the LAW, that I can be rest assured that that particular rule, would never be broken. This isn't the stone ages past. With new things come the need for new laws. My generation will have different laws than that of my grandfather, and my grandkids will be different than mine. But bottom line is the 2 primary ones don't get broken, which is why they were HAMMERED HOME, by Jesus Himself.

You say if He taught against the Torah, He would be a false prophet? He FOLLOWED TORAH TO HIS DEATH!!! ALL the way. That would be blasphemous to assume, to say the least.

I think during every Christians walk, they experience doubt about who and what Jesus actually came to do and was. The message was TOO radical and far reaching. It was TOO deep to understand with carnal minds. It was TOO revolutionary, for those in power.

But His is the Glory of the Father revealed. His is what Father gave Him, which was EVERYTHING. Nothing created without Him, and everything for Him. He Glorified Father while He was here, and Father Glorified Him throughout the Universe. My King, My Savior, My Messiah, My Lamb, My Priest. Praise be His Name!!

How would I covet someones oxen, or his ass, or his maidservant, or his man servant? I mean seriously? Just using a little pun here. This was written in stone. I suppose by the letter of the LAW, that I can be rest assured that that particular rule, would never be broken. This isn't the stone ages past. With new things come the need for new laws. My generation will have different laws than that of my grandfather, and my grandkids will be different than mine. But bottom line is the 2 primary ones don't get broken, which is why they were HAMMERED HOME, by Jesus Himself.

Because Tkjcc you don't understand.

To sum it up, when we see the donkey of someone who hates us fallen down under its load and we immediately recognize that the 'right' thing to do is help him stand up his donkey and we do it then we are on the path to godliness.

The above is His Godliness revealed in the Torah. Tkjcc it's a principle.

This is why we need the Spirit. Because without the Spirit I'm a selfish human.

The Spirit leads me into Godliness like the above.

But I'm still human.

Marc

Messianic Jewboy · Nov 25, 2007

Tkjcc the law commanding us to assist our enemy reveals to us a piece of true Godliness. In other words it's Gods character that would assist an enemy.

Exodus 23:5If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying under its burden, and you would refrain from helping it, you shall surely help him with it.

Marc

Messianic Jewboy · Nov 25, 2007

Tkjjc said:
I haven't made it that far into the Revelation of Jesus Christ yet, to answer or respond to this.

Yes, this is most certainly true. This was written to Jewish people who didn't want to give up their religious practice. This explains to the average practicing Jew, why one give up Mosaic and Levitical Laws, Ordinances, and Sacrifices. But, you must be willing to SEE what it is saying, and not wish for it to say something it doesn't.

Don't do the same thing you accused me of doing Marc. You should presume nothing about my relationship with Father, nor His Son. You don't know, so don't be a hypocrite.I quoted Jesus in the book of John, and if you read Jesus, you would have known that.

Well, first off, you haven't even defined Torah, like I asked you to. I answered your question with scripture. I am absolutely 100% positive that my heart is right with Father. Are you? I actually would never "teach" that people don't have to do anything contrary to the Word. Why be one of those people who eyes are scaled, when the Truth smacks you in the face. Read it yourself. You pull this verse out time and time again.

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

That word you see there translated Lawlessness or Iniquity in some Bibles, isn't even the word you proclaim it to be. It isn't Torahlessness. You base your entire argument off this one verse. And you don't even know the verse you are using. That word dear brother is:

anomia translated meaning
1) the condition of without law
a) because ignorant of it
b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Not this word that YOU ARE thinking of:

anomos translated meaning
1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked

Now, I never said we don't have any LAWS. I just said yours don't apply to me. And if you don't understand that, I would ask Father for help. This verse below uses the same word Jesus quoted, and guess what? IT IS A MYSTERY. Something which must be revealed.

For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains {will do so} until he is taken out of the way.

This is when the blinders come OFF. You then see what the mystery is.

Well, Marc. I have made my point time and time again. Outside of the 2 Commandments issued by Jesus, in both the OT and NT which is to LOVE, FIRST FATHER, THEN BROTHER, my Laws are not your Laws, and IIA's Laws are not my Laws. Things which convict me are not the same as convicts you, or anyone else. There might be common factors, but not Identical.

How would I covet someones oxen, or his ass, or his maidservant, or his man servant? I mean seriously? Just using a little pun here. This was written in stone. I suppose by the letter of the LAW, that I can be rest assured that that particular rule, would never be broken. This isn't the stone ages past. With new things come the need for new laws. My generation will have different laws than that of my grandfather, and my grandkids will be different than mine. But bottom line is the 2 primary ones don't get broken, which is why they were HAMMERED HOME, by Jesus Himself.

You say if He taught against the Torah, He would be a false prophet? He FOLLOWED TORAH TO HIS DEATH!!! ALL the way. That would be blasphemous to assume, to say the least.

I think during every Christians walk, they experience doubt about who and what Jesus actually came to do and was. The message was TOO radical and far reaching. It was TOO deep to understand with carnal minds. It was TOO revolutionary, for those in power.

But His is the Glory of the Father revealed. His is what Father gave Him, which was EVERYTHING. Nothing created without Him, and everything for Him. He Glorified Father while He was here, and Father Glorified Him throughout the Universe. My King, My Savior, My Messiah, My Lamb, My Priest. Praise be His Name!!

"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

That word you see there translated Lawlessness or Iniquity in some Bibles, isn't even the word you proclaim it to be. It isn't Torahlessness. You base your entire argument off this one verse. And you don't even know the verse you are using. That word dear brother is:

anomia translated meaning
1) the condition of without law
a) because ignorant of it
b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Not this word that YOU ARE thinking of:

anomos translated meaning
1) destitute of (the Mosaic) law
a) of the Gentiles
2) departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked

Tkjcc anomia is the same root as anomos.

Marc

Tkjjc · Nov 25, 2007

mpossoff said:
Tkjcc anomia is the same root as anomos.

Marc

Which is nomos,,and nomos isn't Torah..

1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

That would like saying anything that a government or country, or any ruling party, would be classified as Torah,,,Not the case.

This is why the WORD is different, and specialized in the context it is used. Come on, semantics now Marc....

YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

Senior Member

Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency