Yes, but what if we are not wrong?

[agua]

Again, considering 2/3 of the world's population are in this boat, I consider it an important question.

Indeed it is an important question, but you'll need to explain which seat these people are in upon this boat, because some people choose seats that are close to lifeboat, and some choose to sit anywhere they like, because they feel the Titanic won't sink.

( oh boy that was a fast think annalogy I hope it works My apologies if it's flawed )

 

[bhsmte]

Are you talking specifically about people who acknowledge Jesus exists ?

Why are you so hung up on this; "Jesus existing" thing? The vast majority of people agree Jesus was a real historical figure, including non believers. And what if someone didn't believe he existed but they lived a good life?

Which people specifically are you talking about ? Give me an example because there're several possiblities that exist here; including people who acknowledge Jesus is the Messiah, but not diety.

I will state again, the majority of the world's population, do not believe Jesus was a God. They don't believe the resurrection and the miracles Jesus' is claimed to have done in the NT. How could someone believe in a non Christian religion and or be a non believer, if they believed Jesus was God and the NT tells a true story about him? If they did, they would be Christians.

Here is the deal, I have heard from Christians on this board, that people who do not believe Jesus was God and are not Christian, can still go to heaven, based on God's judgment of their life, not their religion. Most though will claim, it is absolutely essential, that a person believe Jesus was God and they are a Christian because of this belief, to avoid doom and obtain eternal life.

Just curious what each Christians opinion is on this. Really, it is a very straight forward question.

 

[bhsmte]

Indeed it is an important question, but you'll need to explain which seat these people are in upon this boat, because some people choose seats that are close to lifeboat, and some choose to sit anywhere they like, because they feel the Titanic won't sink.

This seat:

They don't believe Jesus was God and they could be a believer in another non Christian religion and or a non believer.

Pretty simple and has zero to do with lifeboats and everything to do with them not believing Jesus was God.

 

[TillICollapse]

I'll respond to this part, because it misses one important part of Billy's subject.

( I think you're spot on with rest, which was when you adhered specifically to what Billy said, without additions )

Yes I tried not to add to what he said. However in your response, I believe you add to what he says. Let me explain:

Do you recall when Billy said these people of all religions, and included Atheists and Christians, are "called out" into the Body of Christ ? This means that they don't stay withing their current belief system.

I remember where he said that God is calling people out of the world for His name, but I don't recall him stating that it meant they no longer stayed within their certain belief system. He said they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God ... I don't see where he specifies they had to leave their belief system, or would. I don't see where he said one way or another in that video clip. I can see where it could be inferred, actually, that they DID stay in their specific belief system, based on all the things he said in that clip. If I already had an association that, "If someone is called by God and is in the body of Christ, they therefore are not any longer in their current belief system," I could see where one would infer that. But I could also say the same if someone equated "called by God to be part of the body of Christ" means they will inherit their own planets with Xenu, etc. IOW, I don't see where Graham specified. I think you are adding to what he's saying with your own interpretations.

As far as Christians go, it's self evident that many aren't currently in the Body of Christ ( even though they self identify as Christians ), and we know that no human knew Jesus by name pre first Advent. The process they went through to find Yahweh is the same as is available to all humans, now.

If this discussion delves into scripture support of your apologetic, I'm afraid we can't continue.

This is an absolutely critical point for me.

People, not just believers but people, often presume to ascribe meaning and definition to things which may or may not actually apply. I mean obviously. This is part of how we learn things, figure things out, etc. Nothing special there. With believers, this stands out in a very obvious way as it concerns concepts of God, interpretations of scripture ... but I've noticed it seems to go beyond the realm of the religious focus into presuming to know what others think, believe, mean by what they say, etc ... even though it may not be true and may even be refuted by the other person themselves. And furthermore ... it seems to cross a threshold of "I think this may be true, is it ?" and goes directly to, "I know what I'm thinking here is true, no matter what you say about it." IOW, it goes from recognized presumption, to recognized fact for that person. For example, take a person who says, "I'm an atheist." A believer may come back with, "That means you hate God," or "You must have no morals." And sometimes no amount of, "That's not true, let me explain why ..." may change that, or even behavior may not change that. If the person believes their presumption to be correct, it's almost impossible at times to correct. I don't know if you've ever worked with psych patients, but it very much reminds me such communication with a person who has become convinced that you are someone you aren't, things are the way they really aren't, etc.

This is critical for me, because I don't understand why it seems to apply so often to a believer. I can point to things like cognitive dissonance and projecting all day long, or "emotional/mental/spiritual" need ... but something is lacking. Do you notice this phenomena ? If so, what do you think causes it ? Do you think you are prone to it ? If so, what would make you prone to it ? "Interpretation" is a great example of this. Not just scriptural, but take what Graham is saying for example. I'm not trying to purposefully add to what he's saying ... and my own inferences about what he may actually mean or not are just that: inferences. I realize they could be wrong. I'm not stating definitively, "But he really means this and that." etc. I'm not viewing my presumptions as though they are clarified facts. Yet many a believer will come across that way, as though they are. So do you have any thoughts on this "phenomena" you may want to share ? For me, this is an important issue. I take it seriously, because as I dig deeply with some, I hit this floor quite often.

 

[agua]

Why are you so hung up on this; "Jesus existing" thing? The vast majority of people agree Jesus was a real historical figure, including non believers. And what if someone didn't believe he existed but they lived a good life?

The reason to be specific here is because you're attempting to use broad brush strokes when the boundaries aren't masked. As example the specific person you mentioned who lives this good life, have they consciously rejected Jesus ( while knowing who He was through witnessing etc ); or have they sought the One True God without knowing much about Jesus etc. ?

I will state again, the majority of the world's population, do not believe Jesus was a God. They don't believe the resurrection and the miracles Jesus' is claimed to have done in the NT. How could someone believe in a non Christian religion and or be a non believer, if they believed Jesus was God and the NT tells a true story about him? If they did, they would be Christians.

Yes correct. You're agin using too wide a brush though, because the discovery that Jesus is God comes after the search for the One True God begins. ie. as Captain Kirk suggests it comes by revelation or study etc.

Here is the deal, I have heard from Christians on this board, that people who do not believe Jesus was God and are not Christian, can still go to heaven, based on God's judgment of their life, not their religion. Most though will claim, it is absolutely essential, that a person believe Jesus was God and they are a Christian because of this belief, to avoid doom and obtain eternal life.

Just curious what each Christians opinion is on this. Really, it is a very straight forward question.

The question isn't staightforward at all, but I understand it's simpler to to compatmentalise all situations into a nice little criteria, for your sensibilities.

The Biblical model suggests that every Human must seek the One True God, and they will find Him if they genuinely seek, to be saved by the Blood of Christ ( whether they know of Jesus, or not )

 

[agua]

...
I remember where he said that God is calling people out of the world for His name, but I don't recall him stating that it meant they no longer stayed within their certain belief system. He said they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God ... I don't see where he specifies they had to leave their belief system, or would....

Called out implies leaving a current situation, as is the definition of the Church.

 

[agua]

This seat:

They don't believe Jesus was God and they could be a believer in another non Christian religion and or a non believer.

Pretty simple and has zero to do with lifeboats and everything to do with them not believing Jesus was God.

Be specific Bhsmte. Give me examples because we know evry humans situation is different in some way.

 

[TillICollapse]

Called out implies leaving a current situation, as is the definition of the Church.

I don't recall him referring to "belief system". I recall him saying they were called out for His name, members of the body of Christ because they were called by God. I don't see where he talks about belief systems specifically, nor leaving their current situation. He does say they are called out of the world, and then goes onto mention "worlds" (Christian worlds, unbelieving world, etc) in which he further goes on after stating such a thing, that those people may not even know names, but they know in their heart such and such and they turn to a light.

So I see him addressing being called out to the body of Christ as involving turning to a light perhaps, and a matter of their heart. I don't see him showing whether they leave their current belief systems or not, or begin to do anything else for that matter.

Thus if we equate Graham saying "called out" with "church", then I don't see even there where Graham states that a person who becomes part of that has left their belief system behind. I see where he addresses perhaps the state of something they know in their heart and "light", etc.

 

[bhsmte]

The reason to be specific here is because you're attempting to use broad brush strokes when the boundaries aren't masked. As example the specific person you mentioned who lives this good life, have they consciously rejected Jesus ( while knowing who He was through witnessing etc ); or have they sought the One True God without knowing much about Jesus etc. ?



Yes correct. You're agin using too wide a brush though, because the discovery that Jesus is God comes after the search for the One True God begins. ie. as Captain Kirk suggests it comes by revelation or study etc.



The question isn't staightforward at all, but I understand it's simpler to to compatmentalise all situations into a nice little criteria, for your sensibilities.

The Biblical model suggests that every Human must seek the One True God, and they will find Him if they genuinely seek, to be saved by the Blood of Christ ( whether they know of Jesus, or not )

You know what, I see you don't want to answer, so just forget it.

 

[agua]

I don't recall him referring to "belief system". I recall him saying they were called out for His name, members of the body of Christ because they were called by God.

Called out implies leaving a current situation, and entering a new one. Billy included Atheists in his model which intuitevlty rules out staying in the current belief system ie. you can't believe Yahweh exists, and seek Him, while you don't believe He exists.

 

[agua]

You know what, I see you don't want to answer, so just forget it.

Interesting, because I have the same opinion of you Bhsmte. Actually I'm beginning to discern that you don't want to address specifics, because it may ruin your perceived idea of self righteousness.

Can I ask are you fully in the Atheist camp, or do you have a small part inside that believes in the afterlife ?

 

[bhsmte]

Be specific Bhsmte. Give me examples because we know evry humans situation is different in some way.

Does a Hindu believe Jesus was God?
Does a Jew believe Jesus was God?
Does a Muslim believe Jesus was God?
Does a non believer believe Jesus was God?

Specific enough?

Anyone who believes Jesus was God, is a Christian are they not?

Are you going to keep on with the tap dance?

 

[TillICollapse]

Called out implies leaving a current situation, and entering a new one. Billy included Atheists in his model which intuitevlty rules out staying in the current belief system ie. you can't believe Yahweh exists, and seek Him, while you don't believe He exists.

I see where Graham addresses the heart and turning to "light". I don't see where Graham addresses whether or not they changed beliefs or belief systems. If you want to say called out implies leaving a current situation AND entering a new one, that's not necessarily true.

If I'm sitting in line waiting for my number to be called, and they call it, I don't have to get up and move a single inch. In fact, I can throw my number on the ground and leave. I still recognize I was called out. I can recognize this in "my heart" even. Yes, my name was called.

If there is a knock at the door and I hear my name being yelled, and someone is shining a flashlight through the mail slot ... I recognize it. I don't have to answer the door. I see the light, I turn to it, I hear my name, I don't answer the door. For any number of reasons. Perhaps I know who it is and I don't want to deal with them. Perhaps I know who it is and it brings joy to me they came knocking, yet I still don't answer it. I see Graham addressing the heart/etc, not whether or not the person left one situation for another concerning their belief system.

You keep asserting it. Asserting something as true doesn't make it true. My own inferences about what Graham may or may not mean may not be correct, but I'm not asserting them as though they are the only correct interpretation.

 

[bhsmte]

Interesting, because I have the same opinion of you Bhsmte. Actually I'm beginning to discern that you don't want to address specifics, because it may ruin your perceived idea of self righteousness.

Can I ask are you fully in the Atheist camp, or do you have a small part inside that believes in the afterlife ?

I am atheist towards personal Gods and agnostic towards non personal Gods.

Afterlife? I think it is likely all she wrote when we die, but hey, I could be wrong.

 

[agua]

I am atheist towards personal Gods and agnostic towards non personal Gods.

Afterlife? I think it is likely all she wrote when we die, but hey, I could be wrong.

Ok thanks. Are non personal gods like Buddhism and pantheism etc ?

 

[bhsmte]

Ok thanks. Are non personal gods like Buddhism and pantheism etc ?

Non personal would mean; a God who does not answer prayers, a God who does not concern himself with humans on earth.

 

[PsychoSarah]

Interesting, because I have the same opinion of you Bhsmte. Actually I'm beginning to discern that you don't want to address specifics, because it may ruin your perceived idea of self righteousness.

Can I ask are you fully in the Atheist camp, or do you have a small part inside that believes in the afterlife ?

Belief in an afterlife and belief in a deity/deities are two separate beliefs that do not always go together. One can believe in deities without believing in an afterlife, and one can believe in an afterlife without believing in deities. I used to believe ghosts were real, but I have never been a theist.

 

[agua]

Belief in an afterlife and belief in a deity/deities are two separate beliefs that do not always go together. One can believe in deities without believing in an afterlife, and one can believe in an afterlife without believing in deities. I used to believe ghosts were real, but I have never been a theist.

Yes correct. The Greeks had a few views in this area, mainly that the flesh/material things are vile and the afterlife is fully spiritual, and some Eastern religions at that time believed in reincarnation.

The Stoics didn't believe in a person god but that the Universe itself was god, I think, but I might be wrong.

Ghosts is an interesting subject, for both theists and atheists.

 

[agua]

Non personal would mean; a God who does not answer prayers, a God who does not concern himself with humans on earth.

Ah ok. So a non personal god could have substance ( a name maybe or identity, chacteristics etc ) but can't be discovered ?

 

[bhsmte]

Ah ok. So a non personal god could have substance ( a name maybe or identity, chacteristics etc ) but can't be discovered ?

Any real God would need to have characteristics.

Not so sure they need a name, unless they called themselves Fred or something.

Whether a being could be discovered, would depend on the ability to confirm the God's existence.

You see, the Christian God has traits that most Christians apply to him, so I can make a call on that God existing or not, looking at the realities of the world.

The non personal God, is not well defined in regards to these traits, so it is unknowable.