Yes, but what if we are not wrong?

Wryetui said:

I can not make statements in the name of God, neither do you, so you will have to ask God in order to get a response.

I didn't contradict myself, if so, tell me where and I will explain what you didn't understand.

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That's odd, many of your statements on this thread appear to be your understanding of what God wants. So, you contradicted yourself again.

bhsmte said:

If your religion does not have definitive answers, how do you know eternal life is about communion with the source of life, which I would assume you mean to be belief in your God?

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Jesus told us so, and we have faith in Jesus. He did not reveal all things to us, that hardly changed the facts that he has revealed to us the way to eternal life. Maybe there are other ways to God, but the Christian tradition cannot speak to them authoritatively.

FireDragon76 said:

Jesus told us so, and we have faith in Jesus. He did not reveal all things to us, that hardly changed the facts that he has revealed to us the way to eternal life. Maybe there are other ways to God, but the Christian tradition cannot speak to them authoritatively.

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How did you conclude Jesus told you?

Wryetui said:

If you think you are using this argument to attack God you are wrong. I would like to blame the first guy who invented the gun for all the crimes that were made in history because of them, furthermore, I would like to blame the chinese for descovering the gunpowder. Yes, God created Lucifer even if He knew how it would all develop, that doesn't mean it's God's fault for what He did.

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Do you have an opinion on why God created Lucifer?

Wryetui said:

If you think you are using this argument to attack God you are wrong. I would like to blame the first guy who invented the gun for all the crimes that were made in history because of them, furthermore, I would like to blame the chinese for descovering the gunpowder. Yes, God created Lucifer even if He knew how it would all develop, that doesn't mean it's God's fault for what He did.

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Guns have multiple uses, and are only bad if used improperly. Gun powder has multiple uses, and are only bad if used improperly. If Yahweh knew the only purpose for Satan is to do harm, how is it not Yahweh's fault?

Why was the snake allowed in the garden?

In the end we must see that there is no battle raging between God and satan, but between men and God over truth. Men will say, if God had given us freedom we would have been faithful. His answer is to point to history. We say He should have proven to us more clearly and we would have believed and been faithful. God's answer is to point to satan. At the end of all things we will ashamed of all our protests as our history will silence us.

Wryetui said:

If you think you are using this argument to attack God you are wrong. I would like to blame the first guy who invented the gun for all the crimes that were made in history because of them, furthermore, I would like to blame the chinese for descovering the gunpowder. Yes, God created Lucifer even if He knew how it would all develop, that doesn't mean it's God's fault for what He did.

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The Chinese and inventor of the gun did not claim to be omniscient, knowing all the consequences of their inventions. The biblical god claims to be omniscient, therefore he is responsible for all the consequences as a result of his creation of Lucifer.

Wryetui said:

No, my answers are my understandings on what God did or said, but I cannot make a statement regarding what God will do or would do, I can only guess, like all of you, on those matters.

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If a God exists I would agree, any comments on what he wants, desires or how he operates, are pure guesses and speculation.

Wryetui said:

I was just trying to help you to see how reality is, if you don't want to accept it then it is your choice. I tried to open your eyes, but maybe you don't want to... Sorry if any of you felt insulted by me.

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This is very arrogant and condescending to us non-believers. Just because we don't believe as you do does not mean that we are willfully blind. It may mean that we have examined what you are offering and we don't find it persuasive. How could we not be insulted by what you have said here?

I have a pretty good handle on how reality is. My eyes are wide open Wryetui, and more importantly, my mind is active. If your worldview/philosophy had anything at all positive to offer you would not have to resort to threats of physical torture to convince me. That is what you are doing in the opening post. In essence you are saying who are you to think for yourself, you'd better believe because the price of thinking for yourself and getting it wrong is too terrible to contemplate. So give up on your reasoning mind and believe out of fear.

Fear is all you have to offer in the end. My worldview is completely the opposite. It offers reason and evidence and not fear. It is premised on the primacy of existence and an objective reality. It holds that reality is real and knowable. Yours is premised on the opposite view, the primacy of consciousness. On your view the universe is the product of a consciousness and whatever the ruling consciousness decides is what reality is. This is metaphysical subjectivism. Between what you offer and Objectivism, there's no contest which is true and which is superior in the area of metaphysics.

My worldview gives me a reliable method of knowledge. An objective theory of concepts. It holds that knowledge of reality is gained by looking outward at reality. Yours does not have a theory of concepts nor any kind of epistemology that I can find. It holds that knowledge comes in the form of supernatural revelations that must be accepted on faith. It also holds that your mind is incompetent to deal with questions of right and wrong which is the purpose of reason. Between what you are offering and Objectivism, there's no contest which is superior in the area of epistemology

In ethics, my philosophy gives me a strong, objective code of moral values based on life as the standard of value. Yours gives you a set of commandments and holds sacrifice and ultimately death as its standard of value. Mine demands that I hold myself as a supreme value while yours demands that I hold myself as the standard of evil. So between what you have to offer and Objectivism, there's no contest when it comes to a positive, life affirming ethics.

I think you need to completely rethink your premises.

Wryetui said:

No, my answers are my understandings on what God did or said, but I cannot make a statement regarding what God will do or would do, I can only guess, like all of you, on those matters.

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This is one of my main issues with most believers I come across, and those who claim "Christianity" in general: they do not seem to take the truth all that seriously. They are content with guesses, and asserting them as though they are truth. They find what they believe to be true, and go from there. When they work as a group to find "truth", it's often through confirmation bias, circular reasoning, etc.

If we were talking about mundane things, or merely "interesting" things ... it would be one thing. But we're often talking about things which imply or involve ETERNAL torment and torture. So to take it seriously, I think, would be a much more bigger deal ... if you ACTUALLY believed. For those who only believe in passing, I can understand why it's not that big of a deal and to be content with a guess, or a belief, would be another matter. I'm content to guess about all manner of things, or take risks. But in other areas, not so much. When it comes to speaking about or on behalf of a being who may or may not have the ability to create life or decide if me or others will suffer some type of ever lasting punishment ... I'm confused why so many are content with a "guess", and not only that ... but they take it a step further. They are content to presume that some of the very human beings they may love and care about, or even those they don't ... may end up with such a horrific end ? What ? Don't we typically look at such horrors taking place it the world and say, "This is what's wrong with the world," yet ... it's perfectly reasonable to keep a smile on your face while believing this is happening without end to people, and you're content to assume you've "got it right" ?

I find it's hard to take others seriously concerning "truth" if they aren't treating it with seriousness in the first place.

KCfromNC said:

It is interesting that non-believers get the blame for not figuring out what god wants when the people who believe it in can't seem to agree on it either.

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All humans fall into the same errors at times; after all we're all, well, human.

BlueLightningTN said:

Who made the snake?

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God created Lucifer, knowing he would become Satan, and as we see in Job and other places, Satan was fully in God's employ at the time.

God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God spoke the command that made sin possible. Of that phenomenon, Paul says:

I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. -- Romans 7

Had there been no tree and especially had there been no command, there could not have been sin.

IOW, the command not only made sin possible, it made sin inevitable. Adam or Eve or one of their offspring, sooner or later, would fall. Satan was the catalyst that made it sooner rather than later.

And remember that scripture already tells us that before any of these events occurred, God had already prepared His plan for redemption and salvation. Therefore, what has happened has been God's Plan A all along.

Now, a lot of Christians will deny all this in an attempt to defend God's virtue, but IMO God is a big boy and will ultimately defend His own virtue.

The problem with denying that God is the First Cause for all that has happened is that one must assert that God is either stupid or weak, and IMO a stupid or weak God is not worth believing in. When Job was assailed by Satan (prompted by God--says so right there), Job laid all the responsibility on God as First Cause:

And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned not, nor blamed God. -- Job 1

It's important for Christians to note that by acknowledging God as First Cause for both the good things and the bad things in his life, scripture asserts that Job did not blame God. The difference between the two is that Job did not deny God's right and authority to do whatever God wanted to do--"blame" is not assigned to actions that one has the right and authority to do.

The other assertion might be that God is a sadist, and that is the one posited most often by the atheists in this thread. However, I've been through enough training sessions for a tough mission in my own life that I understand:

No training seems enjoyable at the time, but painful .-- Hebrews 12

My toughest trainers have always been people who most wanted me to succeed.

But one must see long range, beyond the training, and accept from the trainer that there is something beyond the training. When the coach demands, "Run another lap," one must believe there will be a race to run at the end of all this hard training.

Later on, however, it yields the fruit of peace and righteousness to those who have been trained by it. -- Hebrews 12

For my Christian brothers: Do you not know that we will judge angels? -- 1 Corinthians 6

If that role lies ahead of us...consider what training it must entail to be prepared to judge angels? Would it not take knowledge of good and evil to judge angels?

agua said:

All humans fall into the same errors at times; after all we're all, well, human.

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I've always viewed this answer as a cop out.

RDKirk said:

God created Lucifer, knowing he would become Satan, and as we see in Job and other places, Satan was fully in God's employ at the time.

God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God spoke the command that made sin possible. Of that phenomenon, Paul says:

I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. -- Romans 7

Had there been no tree and especially had there been no command, there could not have been sin.

IOW, the command not only made sin possible, it made sin inevitable. Adam or Eve or one of their offspring, sooner or later, would fall. Satan was the catalyst that made it sooner rather than later.

And remember that scripture already tells us that before any of these events occurred, God had already prepared His plan for redemption and salvation. Therefore, what has happened has been God's Plan A all along.

Now, a lot of Christians will deny all this in an attempt to defend God's virtue, but IMO God is a big boy and will ultimately defend His own virtue.

The problem with denying that God is the First Cause for all that has happened is that one must assert that God is either stupid or weak, and IMO a stupid or weak God is not worth believing in. When Job was assailed by Satan (prompted by God--says so right there), Job laid all the responsibility on God as First Cause:

And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. In all this Job sinned not, nor blamed God. -- Job 1

It's important for Christians to note that by acknowledging God as First Cause for both the good things and the bad things in his life, scripture asserts that Job did not blame God. The difference between the two is that Job did not deny God's right and authority to do whatever God wanted to do--"blame" is not assigned to actions that one has the right and authority to do.

The other assertion might be that God is a sadist, and that is the one posited most often by the atheists in this thread. However, I've been through enough training sessions for a tough mission in my own life that I understand:

No training seems enjoyable at the time, but painful .-- Hebrews 12

My toughest trainers have always been people who most wanted me to succeed.

But one must see long range, beyond the training, and accept from the trainer that there is something beyond the training. When the coach demands, "Run another lap," one must believe there will be a race to run at the end of all this hard training.

Later on, however, it yields the fruit of peace and righteousness to those who have been trained by it. -- Hebrews 12

For my Christian brothers: Do you not know that we will judge angels? -- 1 Corinthians 6

If that role lies ahead of us...consider what training it must entail to be prepared to judge angels? Would it not take knowledge of good and evil to judge angels?

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If Yahweh created sin and Satan knowing the result would be most people burning forever, then Yahweh is the worst villain imaginable. Thankfully he's a fictional villain.

Wryetui said:

The day you will understand that God doesn't send you to hell punishing you for not believing in Him, that hell is not a place and that we need Him, that day you will be healed. I find it quite amazing how you live your entire life without God and even insulting or criticizing Him, but when you die you expect that He is "fair" and He will accept you into heaven even with the rotten nature you have and you did nothing about it your entire life.

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"....that we need him..."

What exactly do we need him for? I think you're sorely mistaken about what an atheist is friend. One of the things you come to realize when you stop believing is exactly the opposite...you don't need him at all and never did.

BlueLightningTN said:

If Yahweh created sin and Satan knowing the result would be most people burning forever, then Yahweh is the worst villain imaginable. Thankfully he's a fictional villain.

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People will get what they really want.

The chances of any specific and existing religion being right are so small, that it is better to cross one's fingers and hope that whatever deity/deities exist, that belief doesn't matter.

Personally, I would rather be wrong and have a bad afterlife, than be right and have no afterlife, but belief isn't about what I want, but rather how I perceive the world and what I derive as true.