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Again, considering 2/3 of the world's population are in this boat, I consider it an important question.
Are you talking specifically about people who acknowledge Jesus exists ?
Which people specifically are you talking about ? Give me an example because there're several possiblities that exist here; including people who acknowledge Jesus is the Messiah, but not diety.
Indeed it is an important question, but you'll need to explain which seat these people are in upon this boat, because some people choose seats that are close to lifeboat, and some choose to sit anywhere they like, because they feel the Titanic won't sink.
Yes I tried not to add to what he said. However in your response, I believe you add to what he says. Let me explain:I'll respond to this part, because it misses one important part of Billy's subject.
( I think you're spot on with rest, which was when you adhered specifically to what Billy said, without additions )
I remember where he said that God is calling people out of the world for His name, but I don't recall him stating that it meant they no longer stayed within their certain belief system. He said they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God ... I don't see where he specifies they had to leave their belief system, or would. I don't see where he said one way or another in that video clip. I can see where it could be inferred, actually, that they DID stay in their specific belief system, based on all the things he said in that clip. If I already had an association that, "If someone is called by God and is in the body of Christ, they therefore are not any longer in their current belief system," I could see where one would infer that. But I could also say the same if someone equated "called by God to be part of the body of Christ" means they will inherit their own planets with Xenu, etc. IOW, I don't see where Graham specified. I think you are adding to what he's saying with your own interpretations.Do you recall when Billy said these people of all religions, and included Atheists and Christians, are "called out" into the Body of Christ ? This means that they don't stay withing their current belief system.
This is an absolutely critical point for me.As far as Christians go, it's self evident that many aren't currently in the Body of Christ ( even though they self identify as Christians ), and we know that no human knew Jesus by name pre first Advent. The process they went through to find Yahweh is the same as is available to all humans, now.
If this discussion delves into scripture support of your apologetic, I'm afraid we can't continue.
Why are you so hung up on this; "Jesus existing" thing? The vast majority of people agree Jesus was a real historical figure, including non believers. And what if someone didn't believe he existed but they lived a good life?
I will state again, the majority of the world's population, do not believe Jesus was a God. They don't believe the resurrection and the miracles Jesus' is claimed to have done in the NT. How could someone believe in a non Christian religion and or be a non believer, if they believed Jesus was God and the NT tells a true story about him? If they did, they would be Christians.
Here is the deal, I have heard from Christians on this board, that people who do not believe Jesus was God and are not Christian, can still go to heaven, based on God's judgment of their life, not their religion. Most though will claim, it is absolutely essential, that a person believe Jesus was God and they are a Christian because of this belief, to avoid doom and obtain eternal life.
Just curious what each Christians opinion is on this. Really, it is a very straight forward question.
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I remember where he said that God is calling people out of the world for His name, but I don't recall him stating that it meant they no longer stayed within their certain belief system. He said they are members of the body of Christ because they've been called by God ... I don't see where he specifies they had to leave their belief system, or would....
This seat:
They don't believe Jesus was God and they could be a believer in another non Christian religion and or a non believer.
Pretty simple and has zero to do with lifeboats and everything to do with them not believing Jesus was God.
I don't recall him referring to "belief system". I recall him saying they were called out for His name, members of the body of Christ because they were called by God. I don't see where he talks about belief systems specifically, nor leaving their current situation. He does say they are called out of the world, and then goes onto mention "worlds" (Christian worlds, unbelieving world, etc) in which he further goes on after stating such a thing, that those people may not even know names, but they know in their heart such and such and they turn to a light.Called out implies leaving a current situation, as is the definition of the Church.
The reason to be specific here is because you're attempting to use broad brush strokes when the boundaries aren't masked. As example the specific person you mentioned who lives this good life, have they consciously rejected Jesus ( while knowing who He was through witnessing etc ); or have they sought the One True God without knowing much about Jesus etc. ?
Yes correct. You're agin using too wide a brush though, because the discovery that Jesus is God comes after the search for the One True God begins. ie. as Captain Kirk suggests it comes by revelation or study etc.
The question isn't staightforward at all, but I understand it's simpler to to compatmentalise all situations into a nice little criteria, for your sensibilities.
The Biblical model suggests that every Human must seek the One True God, and they will find Him if they genuinely seek, to be saved by the Blood of Christ ( whether they know of Jesus, or not )
I don't recall him referring to "belief system". I recall him saying they were called out for His name, members of the body of Christ because they were called by God.
You know what, I see you don't want to answer, so just forget it.
Be specific Bhsmte. Give me examples because we know evry humans situation is different in some way.
I see where Graham addresses the heart and turning to "light". I don't see where Graham addresses whether or not they changed beliefs or belief systems. If you want to say called out implies leaving a current situation AND entering a new one, that's not necessarily true.Called out implies leaving a current situation, and entering a new one. Billy included Atheists in his model which intuitevlty rules out staying in the current belief system ie. you can't believe Yahweh exists, and seek Him, while you don't believe He exists.
Interesting, because I have the same opinion of you Bhsmte. Actually I'm beginning to discern that you don't want to address specifics, because it may ruin your perceived idea of self righteousness.
Can I ask are you fully in the Atheist camp, or do you have a small part inside that believes in the afterlife ?
Interesting, because I have the same opinion of you Bhsmte. Actually I'm beginning to discern that you don't want to address specifics, because it may ruin your perceived idea of self righteousness.
Can I ask are you fully in the Atheist camp, or do you have a small part inside that believes in the afterlife ?
Belief in an afterlife and belief in a deity/deities are two separate beliefs that do not always go together. One can believe in deities without believing in an afterlife, and one can believe in an afterlife without believing in deities. I used to believe ghosts were real, but I have never been a theist.
Ah ok. So a non personal god could have substance ( a name maybe or identity, chacteristics etc ) but can't be discovered ?
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