YEC = my problems with this pseudo-science...

[versastyle]

1) It makes no predictions.
2) Its sole existence is based on the facts of its opposition.
3) Those who believe it in recognize that they can say nothing to sway the skeptic.
4) It claims to be science when it has not made a single verifiable scientific solution of its own.
5) Many of its followers are judgemental and self-righteous.
6) It does not allow for mistakes.
etc...

I used to be a hardcore YEC. I studied it over and over. It took me a few years to conclude that studying it is a waste of time, because the results of study don't actually change anything I believed in it. Not a single thing in three years changed my position on it. It all came down to:

1) What does the bible say about YEC?
2) Who wrote what it says about YEC?
3) Why must I assume God told them to do it?
4) Is there any reason to believe what is said about YEC to be truth at all?

Unfortunately, the answer was no to all of it. I was force fed scripture instead of Christ all my life. It took a huge short at my heart. I recognized that my dogmatic approach to these verses in the bible wasn't doing me any good, and I was not growing in Christ.

YECers. Your faith is very noble. However, I can honestly say that there is absolutely nothing to YEC that is looking desirable at this point.

The best way I can think to break it down is like this:

When my two kids are hungry, they don't care how the food gets cooked, how it gets on the plate, and how their bodies digest and use the food, as long as they can eat. I have found the approach that "daddy did it and he did it well" to now be the most gratifying. I am no longer hungry. This is because I have been fed.

Now if everyone could just quit pestering each other on "how daddy did it". That is about the time I would pull out the spoon. Heh.

(and if you were wondering. yes I am through with this debating. i'm sick and tired of being told I'm the younger, ignorant child when you have absolutely no idea how old i am, or how God came to age me the way he has.)

 

[Im_A]

1) It makes no predictions.
2) Its sole existence is based on the facts of its opposition.
3) Those who believe it in recognize that they can say nothing to sway the skeptic.
4) It claims to be science when it has not made a single verifiable scientific solution of its own.
5) Many of its followers are judgemental and self-righteous.
6) It does not allow for mistakes.
etc...

I used to be a hardcore YEC. I studied it over and over. It took me a few years to conclude that studying it is a waste of time, because the results of study don't actually change anything I believed in it. Not a single thing in three years changed my position on it. It all came down to:

1) What does the bible say about YEC?
2) Who wrote what it says about YEC?
3) Why must I assume God told them to do it?
4) Is there any reason to believe what is said about YEC to be truth at all?

Unfortunately, the answer was no to all of it. I was force fed scripture instead of Christ all my life. It took a huge short at my heart. I recognized that my dogmatic approach to these verses in the bible wasn't doing me any good, and I was not growing in Christ.

YECers. Your faith is very noble. However, I can honestly say that there is absolutely nothing to YEC that is looking desirable at this point.

The best way I can think to break it down is like this:

When my two kids are hungry, they don't care how the food gets cooked, how it gets on the plate, and how their bodies digest and use the food, as long as they can eat. I have found the approach that "daddy did it and he did it well" to now be the most gratifying. I am no longer hungry. This is because I have been fed.

Now if everyone could just quit pestering each other on "how daddy did it". Because as a father, it would annoy the beJeesus out of me. Heh.

hey there

i feel the same way as you do. i remember being so vigors against Evolution. but after time and time, i have come to this conclusion.

scientfic theory cannot be biased based upon our opinions. we can't go around, look for evidence and putting things of the nature of believeing in blind faith and twisting evidence around to fit our spiritual beliefs.

i believe the technical aspects of God's Creation is a mystery. look at how science has changed and changed throughout time. yes i do believe we have come along because of the Enlightment Period (which a lot of atheists love this time period) but we really have come along since then. technology improved at the same time, and it's like we can know a lot more about our physical world, and the physical universe. yet, nothing has changed with more substantial evidence, as let's say, we believe rain exists because it falls from the sky and touches our hands kind of evidence. there is no evidence for God in these manners. i don't think God will ever let that happen. because at that point, what good is faith? all we have right now is theories to compare with our spiritual beliefs about God.

now i'm at the point that, God created us, that is enough for me. maybe he used evolution, maybe he used young earth creation, maybe he used old earth creation who knows? God created us somehow, someway either billions of years ago, or maybe only 6,000 some years ago.

Praise be to God that He used whatever measure to create us!

 

[YahwehLove]

1) What does the bible say about YEC?

you asked guy

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

what DOES the bible say on the matter?
are you listening to IT or to your scientists?

 

[YahwehLove]

Now if everyone could just quit pestering each other on "how daddy did it". Because as a father, it would annoy the beJeesus out of me. That is about the time I would pull out the spoon. Heh.

Youre HERE in ORIGINS THEOLOGY complaining that we should stop talking about 'how daddy did it"

Why are you in this area of the forums if you dont want to hear it?

 

[versastyle]

Why are you in this area of the forums?

To warn you that others see your conversations as unproductive, the opposite of the true meaning of the gospel, ego boosting, and a waste of time.

 

[versastyle]

you asked guy

what DOES the bible say on the matter?
are you listening to IT or to your scientists?

I'm not listening to anyone. If I wanted to believe like you did, I wouldn't have done research on anything.

 

[versastyle]

you asked guy

You are the exact reason this type of debate is unproductive. You take a single question out of what I said and don't reply to the meat of the statement.

This is honestly how I think you act. In your mind you act like this:

"hey he asked for me to post scripture (ringing hands together), hahahaha, i get to post it again and again, YAY FOR ME!!! oh yeah he said some other stuff too, but hey all that is important is me getting to copy and paste. YAY FOR ME!!! i just love trying to get under peoples skins. YAY FOR ME!!!"

Now you may not be intentionally doing it, but DUDE....

THIS IS HOW YOU LOOK.

Is that the image of Christ you are trying to convey?

I thought I could do it, but again sandals have to be dusted off when in the homes of those who are uninterested in the opinion being expressed.

Ignored.

 

[thaiv]

versastyle,

I responded to you in the other thread about Genesis 1:1-2. I think you might find the response interesting. Tell me what you think in that thread. I think its called "Genesis 1:1-2 in its current translation."

 

[MLML]

Hello versastyle. I understand your frustration as this can be a very tough forum in the aspects of much negativity. I like to point out though your title for this thread, it is also a negative title, only belittle those who believe a yec belief.

I know in your frustration, you wouldn't mean to belittle anyone. I believe this because I am called by God/Jesus to love thy neighbor as thyself. This means to think better of the other. I would really like to point this out to everyone who has posted in this thread.

We have the right to stand up speak what we believe, but not at the cost of belittling another, whether Christian or not. I am not trying to say anyone here isn't a Christian, but rather point to the bigger picture of treating another under Christ's Words on the subject.

My personal belief of this forum is that if there wasn't confrontational words, arguing, and debating, but rather just Christians sharing Christ without arguing, debating and confrontation there would be hardly anyone posting here. We, in the flesh, desire this type of world where we can argue, debate and be confrontational. Our flesh loves sin, loves to hate God. And even though we are all Christians, we still live in the flesh struggling to not sin and to not hate God.

No matter what anyone here may think of the other, we must respond with love, not with belittling statements, name calling, or rudeness. To do so is disobey Jesus' commands and ultimately break the command of loving God with all of your being. For if you cannot keep the love thy neighbor command you show disrespect to God, which is a lack of love with all of one's being. You may love, but it is lacking. I know from personal experience, struggling daily with my flesh that wants to give into evil.

A little salt goes a long way.

 

[gluadys]

I was force fed scripture instead of Christ all my life.

I think this is one of the saddest statements I have ever heard.
I believe it is one of the most dangerous aspects of YEC.

 

[MLML]

I think this is one of the saddest statements I have ever heard.
I believe it is one of the most dangerous aspects of YEC.

His statement is rather contradictory.

"I was force fed scripture instead of Christ all my life. "


If you are fed scripture then you are fed Christ. Christ's teachings are in scripture, do you agree? Or do you believe there is an external source we as Christians must use rather than the Bible to learn of Christ?

Secondly, no one is really forced to feed on scripture. You can refuse to listen, you can walk out of church, you can not go to church. If one feels they aren't learning of Christ, which ever Christian knows to be the number One topic to learn, in church, then one can go to another church instead. If there is no other church one can diligently read the Bible for oneself and pray earnestly for understanding.

I apologize but I do take offense to your statement of being indoctrinated by scripture as one of the most dangerous practices of yec. As I said, Scripture, all of it, concerns Christ. I can find Christ throughout the Old Testament, there are 500+ prophecies about Him. The Old Testament is centered in talking about God who is Jesus Christ. Maybe, as I said, you feel we Christians need to focus on another text rather then the Bible. I whole heartedly disagree.

If you feel that learning and studying the Bible to be a problem, or feel it doesn't include Christ, then I guess you have that right. I really don't understand why a Christian would feel that being fed by Scripture is very dangerous. I have to say I am speechless by your statement.

 

[gluadys]

His statement is rather contradictory.

"I was force fed scripture instead of Christ all my life. "


If you are fed scripture then you are fed Christ.

Not necessarily. That is what should happen, but it is easy to expose a person to scripture without exposing them to Christ. And it is possible to be exposed to scripture all one's life, yet never know Christ.

Book learning, even when the book is the bible, is not a substitute for a personal relationship with the living Christ.

Christ's teachings are in scripture, do you agree?

Yes, but knowing Christ's teachings is not the same thing as knowing Christ. And knowing the biblical teachings, or your denomination's teachings, or your family's teachings about Christ is not at all the same thing as knowing Christ.

Most languages don't even use the same word for these different kinds of knowing. In French one would use the verb "savoir" to speak about knowing Christ's teachings or biblical teachings. But one would use an entirely different word "connaitre" to speak of knowing Christ.

Secondly, no one is really forced to feed on scripture.

Most Christian parents, myself included, begin teaching their children as soon as they can listen to a bible story. And do not give their children the option of not attending church and Sunday school. So, yes, one can be force fed on scripture, depending on the attitude of parents and teachers. Children don't have the capacity to opt out as adults do.

I apologize but I do take offense to your statement of being indoctrinated by scripture as one of the most dangerous practices of yec.

It is very dangerous to put scripture on the throne that belongs to Christ.

That is not a disparagement of scripture, which is God's precious revelation to us. But the gift of scripture was never intended to replace its Giver. And all too often, that is what I see when YECs appeal to scripture.

I don't think that is true of all or even most YECs, but it is frequent enough to be a matter of serious concern.

 

[MLML]

Not necessarily. That is what should happen, but it is easy to expose a person to scripture without exposing them to Christ. And it is possible to be exposed to scripture all one's life, yet never know Christ.

I agree, one can read the Bible and never know Christ, but then one wouldn't be a Christian. Versastyle is a Christian so if he reads the Bible, or goes to church were the Bible is preached, then he should hear about Christ. The Bible in whole is about Christ who is God.

We cannot get someone to have a personal relationship with Christ, but we can use the Bible and tell others about Christ. It is up to them to have a personal relationship with Him.

Book learning, even when the book is the bible, is not a substitute for a personal relationship with the living Christ.

So then where do you suggest we learn about Christ? Where do we learn about what God has done for us? This does strenghten our relationship with God/Jesus. The Bible tell us how to live a Holy life, to have a personal relationship, don't you agree? The Bible is what teaches, we then have to choose. Do you think we could have known today about Christ if there never was a Bible that talked of Him?

Yes, but knowing Christ's teachings is not the same thing as knowing Christ. And knowing the biblical teachings, or your denomination's teachings, or your family's teachings about Christ is not at all the same thing as knowing Christ.

Knowing who Christ is and what He did, helps our relationship with Him. Nothing can subsitute a relationship with Christ, but as a Christian do you suggest we need to get away from the Bible? Remeber we are talking about versastyle who is a Christian and said learning scripture didn't teach him of Christ.

Most Christian parents, myself included, begin teaching their children as soon as they can listen to a bible story. And do not give their children the option of not attending church and Sunday school. So, yes, one can be force fed on scripture, depending on the attitude of parents and teachers. Children don't have the capacity to opt out as adults do.

Can you make your child listen? Can you make them listen in sunday school? You can teach, you can read, but you cannot make anyone, adult or child, accept it. If you think you can, then there is no free will for children in this area.

It is very dangerous to put scripture on the throne that belongs to Christ.

That is not a disparagement of scripture, which is God's precious revelation to us. But the gift of scripture was never intended to replace its Giver. And all too often, that is what I see when YECs appeal to scripture.

I don't think that is true of all or even most YECs, but it is frequent enough to be a matter of serious concern.

Do you suggest that when one is a Christian and they are taught the Scripture that it is putting the Scripture on the throne of God?

No yec has ever stated they worship the Bible. Neither have they hinted at it. It is those who despise Christians who highly value God's Word that insist they do.

What offends me is people who take the Bible for granted. They also take God for granted. They assume that the Bible is not as important as what they see, thus disagreeing with the idea of faith. The Bible teaches us of God, directly from God. The world teaches of what we see described by man. How one thinks they can make God's Word equal with man's word is beyond me.

I find great sorrow for those who find little value in Scripture; those who call others Bible idolators because they place God's Word above everything else in this world. As I have said, you are welcome to find fault in me or others who gladly go to God's Word above science, or anything else man teaches. It is pride that tells one that man and his idea's are greater or more sufficient.

I believe the Bible is God-breathed, thus far superior than man has ever come up with.

If you find concern because others place an importance on the Bible, then you must give to the equality of the opposition finding concern for you or others placing such importance on science.

Let me ask you this, on judgement day will science lead you to be saved? Or will the Word of God lead you to be saved?

 

[Tenacious-D]

If you are fed scripture then you are fed Christ. Christ's teachings are in scripture, do you agree? Or do you believe there is an external source we as Christians must use rather than the Bible to learn of Christ?

Absolutely not. Scripture is of lesser importance than a personal relationship with the Lord. Scripture is open to the vagaries of interpretation and false teaching so prevalent on these boards. If you NEED the Bible to learn of Christ then you are in the wrong faith IMO. To many on here, especially of the YEC bent, seem less concerned with a relationship with Christ than with some good old fashioned Bible worship and false idolatry.

I apologize but I do take offense to your statement of being indoctrinated by scripture as one of the most dangerous practices of yec.

It is the overriding practice of YEC. Blind adherence to an 'interpretation' is the modus operandi of the YEC movement. The irony being they claim it's getting back to the roots of the faith when in fact their method of interpretation is anything but traditional.

I have to say I am speechless by your statement.

I'm sorry, I am aghast at yours.

 

[YahwehLove]

To warn you that others see your conversations as unproductive, the opposite of the true meaning of the gospel, ego boosting, and a waste of time.

in you opinion they are a waste of time.

when the word teaches 6 days and you say that it does not, you show precisely why what Im saying is NOT a waste of time.

There is no ego boosting in finding a way to reconcile scripture with what we see.
There may be in saying '' the scripture as written is wrong because MY eyes and MY intellect cannot deal with them"

 

[YahwehLove]

It is very dangerous to put scripture on the throne that belongs to Christ.

This kind of comment never ceases to amaze me.
It seems the Psalmists had a different view of ''scripture'' than men do today.

Psa 68:11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.

Psa 56:10 In God will I praise his word: in the LORD will I praise his word.

Psa 130:5 I wait for the LORD, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.

Psa 119:89 LAMED. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.

Psa 119:169 TAU. Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

Psa 119:107 I am afflicted very much: quicken me, O LORD, according unto thy word.

Now I wonder where these ''words'' are recorded.?

We know the difference between the bible and Jesus and its rather irritating to hear of this ''danger''
that is continually mentioned.

Id say there is greater danger in rejecting the clear teachings of the bible for science that cant seem to make a firm call on anything.

 

[MLML]

Absolutely not. Scripture is of lesser importance than a personal relationship with the Lord. Scripture is open to the vagaries of interpretation and false teaching so prevalent on these boards. If you NEED the Bible to learn of Christ then you are in the wrong faith IMO. To many on here, especially of the YEC bent, seem less concerned with a relationship with Christ than with some good old fashioned Bible worship and false idolatry.

Let me ask you, if the Bible never existed, tell how you would know who Christ is and what He did for you on that Cross?

No, it is you and others of like mind who charge the yec-ist that they worship their Bibles. You and like minded judge us by your statement. Tell me, who here has said they are less concerned with Christ than the Bible? Who? Are you not called by Christ to love thy neighbor, think the best of him/her? Are you do this when unjustly accusing another of something then have never hinted nor said?

Tell me, who here gets upset when they are told they have less faith? I would assume most. So tell me, if this bothers you why then do you the same to the yec-ist? You call yec's faith non-existent when you claim they worship the Bible and not God. You wrongfully call us false idolators.

Since you publically call out my faith and denounce with such arrogance and assert I worhsip the Word above God, I call you to repent. Repent because you have violated Christ's commandment of loving thy neighbor as oneself.

It is the overriding practice of YEC. Blind adherence to an 'interpretation' is the modus operandi of the YEC movement. The irony being they claim it's getting back to the roots of the faith when in fact their method of interpretation is anything but traditional.

The modus of operandi of those who are irritated by those who believe the Word over man, to call us idolators. You think this has meaning and is called to publically be stated. You have not followed the commandments of the Bible to privately correct me first, and if I don't listen to tell the church. You have instead decided to publically denounce me.

So I challenge you. Call me out now, use scripture and correct me for holding true to God's Word. Show me where in my daily life I have gone wrong. For you surely know me so well. Tell me where in the Bible it says I should not believe God's Word. Tell me, as you so arrogantly assume.

I'm sorry, I am aghast at yours.

Yes, and you should be because it makes no sense to you.

 

[Vance]

I love the Scripture with all my heart, study it every day prayerfully and thank God for giving us this source of insight and enlightenment. It is God's Holy Word. But it is possible to be a Christian, and a very good one, and to live a fully abundant life, without it. The Christian Church for the first 200 years proved that.

What is essential is the WORD, the Wisdom, the Logos, which is Jesus, and the presentation of the Gospel message, whether orally (as with Paul and the other apostles long before the Gospel writers wrote or their writings collected and disseminated.

As Paul said, Scripture is useful for instruction and the enhancement of our spiritual life. It is a incredibly central part of my life, and my love affair with God's Word is immense, but I always make sure to not let this love affair with the text overcome my actual relationship with God.

 

[gluadys]

This kind of comment never ceases to amaze me.
It seems the Psalmists had a different view of ''scripture'' than men do today.

And do any of these passages say the words should be worshipped in place of the One who spoke them?

Now I wonder where these ''words'' are recorded.?

An even more important question is "Where were they recorded when the psalmists were writing them?"

How did the psalmist know the Word of God when it was not in a book yet, because he hadn't written it yet? In fact, what was he referring to by the phrase "Word of God" since it clearly was NOT the bible?

WE have the bible, praise God, and let us always be thankful that we do, for without it, the Word of God would be much less accessible to the average person. But let's not fall into the error of thinking that one MUST have a bible to hear the Word of God. The bible itself bears witness that this is not the case.

 

[gluadys]

I agree, one can read the Bible and never know Christ, but then one wouldn't be a Christian. Versastyle is a Christian so if he reads the Bible, or goes to church were the Bible is preached, then he should hear about Christ. The Bible in whole is about Christ who is God.

And I was not speaking of Versastyle but of those who taught him to value scripture above the Christ of scripture.

So then where do you suggest we learn about Christ? Where do we learn about what God has done for us?

The same way the people of the OT and the early church did. Through those whom God chose to be witnesses and to preach the gospel. Do you really suppose that God is helpless to convey his Word in the absence of a printed text?

This does strenghten our relationship with God/Jesus. The Bible tell us how to live a Holy life, to have a personal relationship, don't you agree?

Yes, absolutely.

The Bible is what teaches, we then have to choose. Do you think we could have known today about Christ if there never was a Bible that talked of Him?

Yes, absolutely we could have known. See above.

Nothing can subsitute a relationship with Christ, but as a Christian do you suggest we need to get away from the Bible?

No, absolutely not.

Remeber we are talking about versastyle who is a Christian and said learning scripture didn't teach him of Christ.

No, I am not talking about versastyle at all. I am talking about YECs who practice bibiliolatry--evidently the sort of YECism he was exposed to.

Can you make your child listen? Can you make them listen in sunday school?

Yes.

You can teach, you can read, but you cannot make anyone, adult or child, accept it.

I can make them think they have accepted it. I don't think this is at all uncommon in child or adult.

If you think you can, then there is no free will for children in this area.

Indeed, children have very little freedom. They don't have the experience of alternatives to what is presented to them in order to assess their options.

Do you suggest that when one is a Christian and they are taught the Scripture that it is putting the Scripture on the throne of God?

No. Bibliolatry is an aberration. It is not a consequence of sound teaching from or about scripture.

No yec has ever stated they worship the Bible. Neither have they hinted at it.

I beg to differ. Some have hinted very strongly at just that. I have even seen claims that Jesus was the incarnation of the bible.

I believe the Bible is God-breathed, thus far superior than man has ever come up with.

Amen. I agree.

Let me ask you this, on judgement day will science lead you to be saved? Or will the Word of God lead you to be saved?

My answer to this is the same as yours. I have never said science is salvific. What I have said is that much that has been revealed by science is true, and what is true must be from God and evaluated as such. That includes the truth about the age of the earth and about evolution.