• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

YEC explanations

Status
Not open for further replies.

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Calminian said:
My point was they are honest about their approach.

It isn't honest because:

a) it isn't science

b) they do hide this conclusion first approach often




They start with the presupposition that the Bible is historically accurate.

Bingo. A hypothesis being used as a conclusion. Makes it not a science.

They then combine their scientific knowledge, their historical knowledge, and their theological knowledge so they can rightfully discern what the evidence reveals.

This explains why they are laughed at.


They have a superior method because they don't limit themselves to naturalistic assumptions.

Rubbish. It is not a method its a dogma.



My biggest concern with scientists is that they don't grasp the assumptions their field is based on. Science is not objective when it comes the methodological naturalism.

More rubbish. Yes we do uderstand our assumptions otherewise we couldn't do the job.



First I don't think the subject of origins belongs in a science classroom at all. I think students deserve better than that. The truth is, it belongs in a philosophy class where all forms of evidence can be looked at. Students need to hear about Aristotle's and other philosopher's logical arguments against infinite regression.

Yes it does belong. The theological/metaphysical/philosophical aspect doesn't belong in a science class but the actual science does.


Second you need to stop claiming that science supports your brand of theology more so than it does YECism. The truth is, science will never conclude what you believe either. The difference is, AIG and ICR are honest about the fact that they are not limiting themselves to scientific knowledge. They openly state they start with the Bible. That's admirable.

Admirable??? It's a disgusting character flaw the way they go about it. And what they are doing is the limiting factor. When you have a conclusion in mind and show horn or discard facts that is NOT admirable. It's a disgrace.



The problem is with the premise of the thread. I don't agree with the premise. You seem to believe that science is the only evidence out there.

It's the only evidence that matters in a scientific arena.

Yet when Paul told us God is revealed in the observable creation, the scientific method didn't even exist. God doesn't want us to observe the creation with the bias of methodological naturalism. You seem to asking people, including creation ministries, to do just that. Why?

He also wants us to think for ourselves and use his gifts not be sheep.



Honestly you will never understand this debate until you come to grasp with the concept of presuppositions. You'll never be able to truly understand the evidence if you limit yourself to the scientific method. But when you open yourself to all forms of evidence, including but not limited to science, you'll finally understand creationism. And you'll become a much better thinker.

The only evidence here is the scientific kind. The rest is pie in the sky with respect to the natural world and its workings. Science doesn't impinge on the spiritual so the spiritual should butt out of the science. Quid pro quo.



Creation ministries use scientific evidence along with other forms of evidence (the Bible, etc.) in their rational arguments for a young earth. You irrationally limited yourself to methodological naturalism. Why be irrational? Why limit yourself?

Because the science approach for science works. The AIG/ICR cabals have never contributed a single thing except laughter.
 
Upvote 0

rmwilliamsll

avid reader
Mar 19, 2004
6,006
334
✟7,946.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
My point was they are honest about their approach. They start with the presupposition that the Bible is historically accurate. They start with a worldview that includes miracles, namely an ex nihilo creative miracle. They then combine their scientific knowledge, their historical knowledge, and their theological/biblical knowledge so they can rightfully discern what the evidence reveals. They have a superior method because they don't limit themselves to naturalistic assumptions.
...snip to address a single issue
Creation ministries use scientific evidence along with other forms of evidence (the Bible, etc.) in their rational arguments for a young earth. You irrationally limited yourself to methodological naturalism. Why be irrational? Why limit yourself?


if their "method" was better than MN in normal science, then why doesn't their theories show evidence of being right?

there was no world wide flood 4K years ago.
there is not a single piece of evidence for it.
there is lots of evidence against it.

by their fruit shall you know them.

so. either their "methods" don't work or they are not working their "method" right.

which one is it?
 
Upvote 0

RichardT

Contributor
Sep 17, 2005
6,642
195
35
Toronto Ontario
✟30,599.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
rmwilliamsll said:
if their "method" was better than MN in normal science, then why doesn't their theories show evidence of being right?

there was no world wide flood 4K years ago.
there is not a single piece of evidence for it.
there is lots of evidence against it.

by their fruit shall you know them.

so. either their "methods" don't work or they are not working their "method" right.

which one is it?

Where are all the creationists when we need them ? Does anyone know the answer to the OP ?
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Case and point with KerrMetric's reply. This is the true opposition to creationism.

KerrMetric said:
The only evidence here is the scientific kind. The rest is pie in the sky with respect to the natural world and its workings. Science doesn't impinge on the spiritual so the spiritual should butt out of the science. Quid pro quo.

This is the true issue. He wants do discard everything not viewed through the filter of naturalism (a philosophical unproven assumption). He wants you to assume miracles were not involved in the creations process.

Yet I'll bet anything he accepts the miracle of the resurrection. (He should, otherwise he shouldn't be posting here) But why? All evidence is scientific in his view, and science doesn't support miracles. Therefore the resurrection, according to him, is pie in the sky. I know most of you don't go down this route, but this is where this position logically leads.
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
rmwilliamsll said:
if their "method" was better than MN in normal science, then why doesn't their theories show evidence of being right?

there was no world wide flood 4K years ago.
there is not a single piece of evidence for it.
there is lots of evidence against it.

by their fruit shall you know them.

so. either their "methods" don't work or they are not working their "method" right.

which one is it?

Actually your post makes no arguments. It merely makes assertions.

there was a world wide flood 4K years ago.
there is a single piece of evidence for it.
there is no valid evidence against it.

There I just did the same thing.

The only fruit you show is that you trust naturism over the Bible. That's not much to brag about.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Calminian said:
Case and point with KerrMetric's reply. This is the true opposition to creationism.

No I oppose so called scientific creationism - an oxymoron if ever there was one.



This is the true issue. He wants do discard everything not viewed through the filter of naturalism (a philosophical unproven assumption). He wants you to assume miracles were not involved in the creations process.

Not so. I oppose FALSE science. That is what groups like AIG/ICR do - they want to have their penny and their cake. They want to use the miraculous and explain it scientifically but in doing so they lie, mislead and generally screw it up.

Quite simply, they are first class incompetents.


Yet I'll be anything he accepts the miracle of the resurrection. (He should, otherwise he shouldn't be posting here) But why? All evidence is scientific in his view, and science doesn't support miracles. Therefore the resurrection, according to him, is pie in the sky. I know most of you don't go down this route, but this is where his position logically leads.

No. I would oppose the explanation of the resurrection by some fool writing down some formulae on a page. I oppose the nonsense AIG and ICR spew out because it is wrong in the scientific sense.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Calminian said:
Actually your post makes no arguments. It merely makes assertions.

there was a world wide flood 4K years ago.
there is a single piece of evidence for it.
there is no valid evidence against it.

There I just did the same thing.

The only fruit you show is that you trust naturism over the Bible. That's not much to brag about.

But at least his assertions are backed up by the evidence. Yours are actually falsified by it.
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
KerrMetric said:
No. I would oppose the explanation of the resurrection by some fool writing down some formulae on a page. I oppose the nonsense AIG and ICR spew out because it is wrong in the scientific sense.

But according to you all evidence is scientific. Therefore there is no evidence for the resurrection. Therefore it should not be believed. This is the corner you've backed yourself into.

BTW, this only directed at KerrMetric. Most TEs are not this ignorant.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Calminian said:
But according to you all evidence is scientific. Therefore there is no evidence for the resurrection. Therefore it should not be believed. This is the corner you've backed yourself into.

BTW, this only directed at KerrMetric. Most TEs are not this ignorant.

Nice strawman.

I said all evidence about the natural world that science examines and AIG & ICR discard/change/lie about is the realm of science not the spiritual. I did not say anything about one off events like the resurrection. The key point is that the evidence falsifies the YEC approach.

I have no problem if someone says it is all miraculous, but don't try to sell me the science of that because it isn't. However, I do think that is bad theology.

I take umbrage at the Creationist groups deliberate and incompetent errors when they attempt to perform science. And that is what they are trying to sell you - that they can support things scientifically.


And your comment about ignorance is ironic when you see the incompetence the creationists exhibit on here and elsewhere.
 
Upvote 0

rmwilliamsll

avid reader
Mar 19, 2004
6,006
334
✟7,946.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Green
Calminian said:
Actually your post makes no arguments. It merely makes assertions.

there was a world wide flood 4K years ago.
there is a single piece of evidence for it.
there is no valid evidence against it.

There I just did the same thing.

The only fruit you show is that you trust naturism over the Bible. That's not much to brag about.

i've offered lots of evidence for no global flood that has never been answered.

lake varves back 120K years
ice cores over 100K years old
tree rings back 12K years
coral layers back 25K years.

i've continually asked for evidence for noah's global flood, i have yet to hear any that provoke the mildest interest to study them. everything i've seen is wrong from the start. not even interesting. but i'll listen to your evidence if you provide some.

if i was a naturalist i wouldn't be a Christian, they are competing worldviews. If i didn't trust the Scriptures i wouldn't be a member of a conservative Church nor would i have spent such a significant part of my life studying it.
 
Upvote 0

random_guy

Senior Veteran
Jan 30, 2005
2,528
148
✟3,457.00
Faith
Christian
Calminian said:
But according to you all evidence is scientific. Therefore there is no evidence for the resurrection. Therefore it should not be believed. This is the corner you've backed yourself into.

BTW, this only directed at KerrMetric. Most TEs are not this ignorant.

I think what KerrMetric is saying is (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you can't use science to give evidence for supernatural events. The resurrection was a supernatural event and there for can not be studied by science and science can make no claims about it.

People who believe in the flood happened, believe that it left evidence behind, and that it can be studied scientifically. Anything that can be studied scientifically can also be falsified. Since Creationists think the that the Flood really happened, and that you can study it, then it can be falsified.

If Creationists believe that the Flood was a supernatural event, and that everything about it was supernatural, then it can't be studied by science/falsified. But the second they make a scientific (all the layers in the geological column was laid down in the Flood) then their beliefs are open to science to be falsified.

EDIT: Beaten by KerrMetric himself.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
random_guy said:
I think what KerrMetric is saying is (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you can't use science to give evidence for supernatural events. The resurrection was a supernatural event and there for can not be studied by science and science can make no claims about it.

People who believe in the flood happened, believe that it left evidence behind, and that it can be studied scientifically. Anything that can be studied scientifically can also be falsified. Since Creationists think the that the Flood really happened, and that you can study it, then it can be falsified.

If Creationists believe that the Flood was a supernatural event, and that everything about it was supernatural, then it can't be studied by science/falsified. But the second they make a scientific (all the layers in the geological column was laid down in the Flood) then their beliefs are open to science to be falsified.

EDIT: Beaten by KerrMetric himself.


EXACTLY.

When you claim it is scientific and you use the naturally gathered evidence around us then you open yourself up to scientific analysis.

This is where I have a problem because these bumbling idiots can't do science.

If I see a scientific explanation of the Resurrection I'll probably find fault with it - because it is NOT a scientifically analysable event.

But when some buffoon tells me evolution is impossible because of the laws of thermodynamics then I bristle. Because:

a) it is not true

b) the person telling me plainly doesn't understand what the heck they are talking about.
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
KerrMetric said:
I said all evidence about the natural world that science examines..

Um, genius, the Resurrection happened in the natural world. All miracles happen in the natural world, just as creation did and the flood did.

KerrMetric said:
I did not say anything about one off events like the resurrection.

What is a "one off event"? And you didn't need to mention the Resurrection since you claimed all evidence is scientific. Therefore you believe there is no evidence for the resurrection. Do you still believe this?

KerrMetric said:
The key point is that the evidence falsifies the YEC approach.

A naturalistic approach cannot falsify an alleged historical miracle. Other approaches would be necessary.

KerrMetric said:
I have no problem if someone says it is all miraculous, but don't try to sell me the science of that because it isn't.

Why would you want to isolate methods of investigation? If courts did this no one would go to jail.

KerrMetric said:
I take umbrage at the Creationist groups deliberate and incompetent errors when they attempt to perform science. And that is what they are trying to sell you - that they can support things scientifically.

Why is it the most ignorant guys are the most outspoken against creationism?

KerrMetric, do yourself a favor. Listen for a while.

KerrMetric said:
And your comment about ignorance is ironic when you see the incompetence the creationists exhibit on here and elsewhere.

My comment of your ignorance was based on your assertion that only scientific evidence is evidence. You have not retracted that yet. You are still ignorant.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Calminian said:
Um, genius, the Resurrection happened in the natural world. All miracles happen in the natural world, just as creation did and the flood did.

The flood did not occur. It is falsified. Unless you claim it was all miraculous then we have the problem the evidence gives a deceptive history.



What is a "one off event"? And you didn't need to mention the Resurrection since you claimed all evidence is scientific. Therefore you believe there is no evidence for the resurrection. Do you still believe this?

Quit using a strawman. I claimed that all the evidence we gather from the natural world and that AIG & ICR claim to analyse scientifically is natural. This has nothing to do with the spiritual.



A naturalistic approach cannot falsify an alleged historical miracle. Other approaches would be necessary.

But it can falsify the so called scientific evidence of the Flood for instance as the Creationist groups put forth.




Why is it the most ignorant guys are the most outspoken against creationism?

KerrMetric, do yourself a favor. Listen for a while.

I have probably been involved in this debate in the scientific sense far longer than you have. I have listened to the crackpots for long enough.




My comment of your ignorance was based on your assertion that only scientific evidence is evidence. You have not retracted that yet. You are still ignorant.


My quote was:

KerrMetric said:
The only evidence here is the scientific kind. The rest is pie in the sky with respect to the natural world and its workings. Science doesn't impinge on the spiritual so the spiritual should butt out of the science. Quid pro quo.


Notice the word 'here'? When discussing the evidence about the natural world we gather and groups like AIG and ICR argue about then the 'scientific evidence' is the only evidence that matters.

When it comes to our personal faiths and spirituality then scientific evidence has no place.
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
random_guy said:
I think what KerrMetric is saying is (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you can't use science to give evidence for supernatural events. The resurrection was a supernatural event and there for can not be studied by science and science can make no claims about it.

I appreciate you helping him out. He truly needs it. I just find it ironic that the guys who are most rude are also most ignorant. This includes those from both sides of the issue.

To your point, I don't think any creationsists believe their views are purely naturalistic. They all admit they start with biblical presuppositions. They then make their scientific deductions from those starting points. If you only listen to anti-creation propaganda you won't know about this. Again, their method is open and honest. Naturalists may not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong. Science along with other methods can help us get to the truth about our world. Science alone can't as it leads to an illogical system of an infinite regression of causes. As far as calling it science, I don't know what else they could call it. It is science after those particular starting points. And they don't claim it is only science.

random_guy said:
People who believe in the flood happened, believe that it left evidence behind, and that it can be studied scientifically. Anything that can be studied scientifically can also be falsified. Since Creationists think the that the Flood really happened, and that you can study it, then it can be falsified.

But again, we are not talking about a natural flood. Creationists agree it would not have happened had nature taken its course. So again they approach it with biblical presuppositions. Creation......science. I think it would only be dishonest if they left the "creation" part out.

random_guy said:
If Creationists believe that the Flood was a supernatural event, and that everything about it was supernatural, then it can't be studied by science/falsified. But the second they make a scientific (all the layers in the geological column was laid down in the Flood) then their beliefs are open to science to be falsified.

All miracles occur in nature. Miracle are additions to natural processes. They are going to leave marks, but they will not be understood with false presuppositions.
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
KerrMetric said:
Quit using a strawman. I claimed that all the evidence we gather from the natural world and that AIG & ICR claim to analyse scientifically is natural. This has nothing to do with the spiritual.

:doh: Dude study the Bible a little. The resurrection was not spiritual but physical. It happened in the physical material natural world. Yet it was a miracle. Therefore, according to you, there is no evidence for it, since all evidence is scientific. If you disagree please tell me what the evidence for it is.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Calminian said:
I appreciate you helping him out. He truly needs it. I just find it ironic that the guys who are most rude are also most ignorant. This includes those from both sides of the issue.

Funny, I said exactly what he did. And its not rude to call those incapable of doing the science out for it. When they claim that is what they are doing yet they committ colossal blunders from the very beginning then they should be taken to task about it.



To your point, I don't think any creationsists believe their views are purely naturalistic. They all admit they start with biblical presuppositions. They then make their scientific deductions from those starting points. If you only listen to anti-creation propaganda you won't know about this. Again, their method is open and honest.

Bull! And this is why they are ridiculed. They are not honest about it. They don't do science, period. When you deliberately submit samples for testing by a certain method you know will give strange results since they are unsuitable and then claim the testing method is flawed you are not only not doing science you are a fraud.



Naturalists may not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong. Science along with other methods can help us get to the truth about our world. Science alone can't as it leads to an illogical system of an infinite regression of causes. As far as calling it science, I don't know what else they could call it. It is science after those particular starting points. And they don't claim it is only science.


Will you give me an example of non-scientific evidence that directly pertains to the so called science AIG and ICR undertake?



But again, we are not talking about a natural flood. Creationists agree it would not have happened had nature taken its course. So again they approach it with biblical presuppositions. Creation......science. I think it would only be dishonest if they left the "creation" part out.

So why do they lie about hydrological sorting, stratigraphy, flood evidence etc. etc.?



All miracles occur in nature. Miracle are additions to natural processes. They are going to leave marks, but they will not be understood with false presuppositions.


But the Creationist groups always try to use science to explain every last point (or close to it.) Hence we get, or used to get, the vapour canopy rubbish and continents moving over periods of months not eaons.
 
Upvote 0

KerrMetric

Well-Known Member
Oct 2, 2005
5,171
226
64
Pasadena, CA
✟6,671.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Calminian said:
:doh: Dude study the Bible a little. The resurrection was not spiritual but physical. It happened in the physical material natural world. Yet it was a miracle. Therefore, according to you, there is no evidence for it, since all evidence is scientific. If you disagree please tell me what the evidence for it is.

I have a funny feeling my knowledge of the Bible far oustrips your science.

I never said all evidence is scientific. I said all evidence argued over with respect to the creation science issues is scientific. Why are you misstating my words? For effect?

I consider the Resurrection an event pertaining to the spiritual and not something prone to forensics. Now warp me back in time to witness the event and then we can talk. Either I see the miraculous or I leave the faith.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
Calminian said:
All miracles occur in nature. Miracle are additions to natural processes. They are going to leave marks, but they will not be understood with false presuppositions.

If a miracle is going to leave marks in nature, one should be able to state what those marks are and what their character is.

If one's claim is that a supernatural flood left a natural geological column, one must be able to make scientific predictions about the character of the geologic column and test for the validity of those predictions.

Will the column contain salt? Why or why not? At what points in the geologic column will salt form? Does observation match prediction?

Will the column contain angular unconformities? Paleosoils? Remnants of ancient rivers? How are these features formed as a result of flood action? How can theories about their formation be tested?

I am not sure how presuppositions, true or false, would bear on answering these questions.
 
Upvote 0

shernren

you are not reading this.
Feb 17, 2005
8,463
515
38
Shah Alam, Selangor
Visit site
✟33,881.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
In Relationship
See, what I really don't get about AiG and ICR is how they can call their research scientific, and at the same time allow for miracles. If they're going to allow God to interfere in the beginning, but not anywhere else, that's deism and not Christianity. If they're going to allow God's interference anywhere and everywhere I don't see how there can be any coherent naturalism, even the methodological (as opposed to philosophical, principled, atheistic naturalism) kind that science presupposes. If they're not going to allow God's interference then their case is over.

Which is why I asked in another thread, "Who's yoked to who?" Isn't it really scientific creationism yoked to atheistic evolutionism? Both sides have made the error of trying to support metaphysical conclusions with physical data. The atheists do it because they like proving their points in any way they can. The scientific creationists do it because their minds have already been shackled by that way of thinking.

AiG and ICR try to claim moral high ground and elevate their ideas to metaphysical ideas by assuming that they are working from the Bible. (That alone is questionable because there are many other people equally committed to the Bible and Christianity and yet read the Bible very differently. It seems they are only committed to their interpretation of the Bible. But that's another thread.) They therefore very proudly and piously declare that "any evidence that goes against what we believe must de facto be false." But in doing so, they have laid the seeds of their own downfall - for if evidence cannot disprove their position I don't see how in any way evidence can disprove the opposite to their position, or prove their position.

The difficulty should be obvious. You are allowed to believe that the global flood happened despite the evidence. Fine. Let's say that someday somebody digs up a massive piece of geological evidence showing that there indeed was a global flood - a worldwide ring of sediment or something. Does that validate your theory? No, I have every right to say "I disbelieve the global flood, despite the evidence for it." I have every right to say that the worldwide ring of sediment was in fact an artifact put there by God to fool the world into believing that there was a global flood where in fact there was none, just as you have every right to say that all the evidence against a global flood does not in fact prove that it did not happen.

If AiG and ICR will not allow evidence to refute their position then they cannot allow evidence to support their position. If theirs is a metaphysical conclusion, it cannot be supported by physical evidence. It must be supported purely by metaphysical evidence. And yet their articles and research are far more about science than about the Bible. See the disingenuousness?

For TEism, the origins of the earth and of life are physical conclusions. The evidence works; the evidence will tell us what we need to know. The metaphysical theories of origin need no physical proof. We do not need IDism to tell us that life has purpose; Christians worldwide believe that "God has a destiny for me!" even though there isn't a shred of scientific study that can remotely support any such notion. We believe in the resurrection precisely because it is first and foremost something accepted metaphysically, something accepted even if we do not have firsthand access to the evidence the way the disciples had. We accept it solely on the basis of trusting the apostles and the Holy Spirit, since we do not have the empty tomb and the burial clothes deflated on hand to study; we do have the fossils and the rocks and the genes to study firsthand.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.