YEC Event Held At Major Science Based University

[elopez]

Creationism conference at Michigan State ties Hitler policies to evolution, sparks faculty ire | MLive.com

This happened today at MSU's campus, just 10 minutes east of my house and while I was partying with my 3 yr old daughter on her bday instead of attending, I just wanted to share the awareness. Awareness of what?

Many things. For starters, Mike Smith who is mainly in charge of all this, duped a group of college Christians on campus. While details are not clear, the group and university itself did not learn of the YEC's full and true purpose of the event until after the event was booked. Not only that, but instead of focusing on religious doctrine or Scripture, they rather show workshops such as an argument for evolution being the main influence for the Holocaust, and 'scientific evidence' for creationism.

It's a little ironic that YEC's are always whinny about TE's worshipping science and relying on science and being too concerned with the science aspect of their beliefs instead of doctrine, yet right here is a clear example of the opposite. Not only that, arguing that evolution mainly influenced Hitler is an awkward, irrelevant, offensive, and misleading position.

https://answersingenesis.org/charles-darwin/racism/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust/

Through out this whole entire article, which explains why they think Hitler used evolution as a means to an end, not once is it mentioned that Hitler did what he did because of some 'divine right, ' as he wrote,

"Thus, it [the folkish philosophy] by no means believes in an equality of races, but along with their difference it recognizes their higher or lesser value and feels itself obligated, through this knowledge, to promote the victory of the better and stronger, and demand the subordination of the inferior and weaker in accordance with the eternal will that dominates this universe."

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, . . . so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe." Or how about this one, "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." There is also this, " [T]he task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty seems a truly high mission."

Hitler consciously believed that he was on a divine mission!! He said it himself! Religion, Christianity itself, was a forcing drive behind his motives. Now note that I am not claiming Christianity teaches racism, I am simply claiming Hitler had a distorted view of the doctrine and used it as an excuse.

How do you explain away all of Hitler's religious claims as a justification? Only if one is intellectually dishonest, of course. It is all too obvious the idea of God was a significant factor of reasoning for Hitler. Again, I am not saying God endorses racism, and indeed if Hitler actually read and took to heart what the Bible tells of race, perhaps he would have been deterred, or realized how contradicting his actions were.

There are indications of Hitler's journals and such of evolution, outlined here,

"higher race subjects to itself a lower race …a right which we see in nature and which can be regarded as the sole conceivable right."

And so it is that Hitler did or may have believed in evolution, (even though he does not explicit about it here, he mentions the theory by name too else where) however, that is to the extent and understanding that he believed in Christianity. In fact, he may have even believed in the conclusion that certain races were genetically inferior, as he thought was scientifically ‘proven’ by Darwinism. Yet this is not proven by Darwinism. In fact the theory of evolution shows there is only one human race. Even more, YECs are so desperate to argue that point that they completely misunderstand, either intentionally or unintentionally, a passage of Darwin's subtitle reference, "the preservation of favoured races," to mean human races when it really meant race as in varieties. It has nothing at all to do with human skin color, only the point that some variations that occur naturally survive in greater numbers.

Hitler did not grasp evolution, just as he didn't grasp Christianity, and evolution wasn't needed at all to drive him, rather it was religion. As racism has existed prior to any thought of evolution, all that was needed was indeed some religious purpose. I wish no one to argue from this point of view. Believe in creationism, that is not the point here, just to put this specific argument on the list of "arguments not to be used anymore."

 

[mark kennedy]

First of all the event has nothing to do with Biblical Creationism, certainly nothing resembling a young earth. The title of the thread is a gross misnomer, there's some Intelligent Design, real questions about Darwinism and some skepticism about the Big Bang model. Now as flattering as it would be for me as a Young Earth Creationist to have my views represented here there is actually no basis for a celebration.

The OP is hyperbole that drips with sarcasm and satire. The fact the universities sometimes criticize Darwinism just tells me that free thought is still an option in academia, nothing more.

Through out this whole entire article, which explains why they think Hitler used evolution as a means to an end, not once is it mentioned that Hitler did what he did because of some 'divine right, ' as he wrote,

"Thus, it [the folkish philosophy] by no means believes in an equality of races, but along with their difference it recognizes their higher or lesser value and feels itself obligated, through this knowledge, to promote the victory of the better and stronger, and demand the subordination of the inferior and weaker in accordance with the eternal will that dominates this universe."

"What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and reproduction of our race and our people, . . . so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission allotted it by the creator of the universe." Or how about this one, "Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." There is also this, " [T]he task of preserving and advancing the highest humanity, given to this earth by the benevolence of the Almighty seems a truly high mission."

Hitler consciously believed that he was on a divine mission!! He said it himself! Religion, Christianity itself, was a forcing drive behind his motives. Now note that I am not claiming Christianity teaches racism, I am simply claiming Hitler had a distorted view of the doctrine and used it as an excuse.

How do you explain away all of Hitler's religious claims as a justification? Only if one is intellectually dishonest, of course. It is all too obvious the idea of God was a significant factor of reasoning for Hitler. Again, I am not saying God endorses racism, and indeed if Hitler actually read and took to heart what the Bible tells of race, perhaps he would have been deterred, or realized how contradicting his actions were.

There are indications of Hitler's journals and such of evolution, outlined here,

"higher race subjects to itself a lower race …a right which we see in nature and which can be regarded as the sole conceivable right."

Ok, I see what you're trying to do and it is circular rhetoric. Hitler rejected Christianity as, 'an invention of the Jews', his philosophy and vague political speeches were essentially pagan. He did not appeal to the Biblical doctrine of Creation, the Nazis appealed to a U.S. Supreme Court decision regarding eugenics based exclusively on Darwinism:

Three generations of imbeciles are enough." This decision opened the floodgates for thousands to be coercively sterilized or otherwise persecuted as subhuman. Years later, the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials quoted Holmes's words in their own defense...In Mein Kampf, published in 1924, Hitler quoted American eugenic ideology and openly displayed a thorough knowledge of American eugenics. "There is today one state," wrote Hitler, "in which at least weak beginnings toward a better conception [of immigration] are noticeable. Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the United States." HNN article​

Yet another classic example of Darwinian political and legal thinking is the USSR, they were profoundly Darwinian while tragically and categorically rejecting Genetics:

They were not receiving Western journals. And Western ideas were considered bourgeois, erroneous and that they had to be abandoned, including - and this is what shocked Monod - 50 years of genetics. So this - there was a public announcement in the Soviet Union that Mendelian genetics, the genetics of Gregor Mendel and the chromosomal theories of genetics...It gutted Soviet biology, I would say, really, since that time; that Soviet biology never really recovered from this long episode of genetics being suppressed in the Soviet Union. ( 'Brave Genius': A Tale of Two Nobelists NPR)
​

Meanwhile back in the United State the Scopes Monkey Trial had little to do with Creationism, it actually had very little to do with evolutionary biology. What the Scopes trial was focused on was the dangers of Social Darwinism. That's the history of Darwinism, it has little to do with science and survival of the fittest is a failed philosophy with a century of blood and ignorance to prove it. Christians then were opposed to it and always will be, no matter how many times Darwinians try to reinvent themselves with shallow political rhetoric.

Have a nice day
Mark

 

[Papias]

I'm also here in Michigan. 'looks like this creationist propaganda attempt failed in every possible way -

• it showed how dishonest creationists are, even to other Christians,
• was a waste of money
• that was almost completely ignored (less than 100 people there),
• and even the bribe to get people there (the ipad) ended up going to a grad student who fully supports evolution and only went to see how bad the event was.

Perhaps the best summary was given by an MSU student at the event:

“We don’t debate evolution because it’s not debatable,” she said. “It’s like debating the existence of Canada.”


Michigan State Origin Summit: The university?s perfect response to the creationist conference.

Yep, debating the existence of Canada. That's what today's creationists look like.

In Christ-

Papias

 

[Papias]

mark wrote:

Hitler's philosophy and vague political speeches were essentially pagan.

Really? Like this Hitler speech?

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. ....In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
​

-12 April 1922 speech, Adolf Hitler, Oxford University Press, 1942

He {Hitler} did not appeal to the Biblical doctrine of Creation

Yes, he did, it's right there in his conversations from 1942:

​

"Where do we acquire the right to believe that man has not always been what he is now? The study of nature teaches us that, in the animal kingdom just as much as in the vegetable kingdom, variations have occurred. They've occurred within the species, but none of these variations has an importance comparable with that which separates man from the monkey — assuming that this transformation really took place" Adolf Hilter, 1942

It's pretty pointless though, since what Hitler believed doesn't determine whether something is true or not. After all, Hitler also believed that the earth went around the sun.
​

Papias

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm also here in Michigan. 'looks like this creationist propaganda attempt failed in every possible way -

it showed how dishonest creationists are, even to other Christians,

Which is disingenuous since there is nothing creationist about anything presented. The fact that it's remotely theistic is what is objectionable to Darwinians.

“We don’t debate evolution because it’s not debatable,” she said. “It’s like debating the existence of Canada.”

Yet another equivocation of evolution with a Darwinian worldview, clearly demonstrating what I've known for years. Darwinians lack the courage of their convictions.

Michigan State Origin Summit: The university?s perfect response to the creationist conference.

Creationism isn't even part of this and I think you realize that. Again with the fallacious rhetoric.

Yep, debating the existence of Canada. That's what today's creationists look like.

Nonsense

 

[elopez]

First of all the event has nothing to do with Biblical Creationism, certainly nothing resembling a young earth. The title of the thread is a gross misnomer, there's some Intelligent Design, real questions about Darwinism and some skepticism about the Big Bang model. Now as flattering as it would be for me as a Young Earth Creationist to have my views represented here there is actually no basis for a celebration.

The OP is hyperbole that drips with sarcasm and satire. The fact the universities sometimes criticize Darwinism just tells me that free thought is still an option in academia, nothing more.



Ok, I see what you're trying to do and it is circular rhetoric. Hitler rejected Christianity as, 'an invention of the Jews', his philosophy and vague political speeches were essentially pagan. He did not appeal to the Biblical doctrine of Creation, the Nazis appealed to a U.S. Supreme Court decision regarding eugenics based exclusively on Darwinism:

Three generations of imbeciles are enough." This decision opened the floodgates for thousands to be coercively sterilized or otherwise persecuted as subhuman. Years later, the Nazis at the Nuremberg trials quoted Holmes's words in their own defense...In Mein Kampf, published in 1924, Hitler quoted American eugenic ideology and openly displayed a thorough knowledge of American eugenics. "There is today one state," wrote Hitler, "in which at least weak beginnings toward a better conception [of immigration] are noticeable. Of course, it is not our model German Republic, but the United States." HNN article​

Yet another classic example of Darwinian political and legal thinking is the USSR, they were profoundly Darwinian while tragically and categorically rejecting Genetics:

They were not receiving Western journals. And Western ideas were considered bourgeois, erroneous and that they had to be abandoned, including - and this is what shocked Monod - 50 years of genetics. So this - there was a public announcement in the Soviet Union that Mendelian genetics, the genetics of Gregor Mendel and the chromosomal theories of genetics...It gutted Soviet biology, I would say, really, since that time; that Soviet biology never really recovered from this long episode of genetics being suppressed in the Soviet Union. ( 'Brave Genius': A Tale of Two Nobelists NPR)
​

Meanwhile back in the United State the Scopes Monkey Trial had little to do with Creationism, it actually had very little to do with evolutionary biology. What the Scopes trial was focused on was the dangers of Social Darwinism. That's the history of Darwinism, it has little to do with science and survival of the fittest is a failed philosophy with a century of blood and ignorance to prove it. Christians then were opposed to it and always will be, no matter how many times Darwinians try to reinvent themselves with shallow political rhetoric.

Have a nice day
Mark

Nothing to do with YEC? As that'd what I claimed. And yes, it had everything to do with that belief. The Creation Summit hosted the event. They are all YEC's. They even handed out free creation science DVD's. Explain how this is not creationism, or YEC? Yes there was ID talks. Some Big Bang discussion. The overall purpose is to promote scientific evidence for creationism. On their website it even states that they believe the, "evidence supports creation and, therefore, that creation should be taught as a viable alternative to evolution and other such theories." That you are claiming this is not YEC or creationism is the only apparent misnomer here, certainly not the OP. And so tell me, what is the difference between your views and their views in creation?

Also MSU wasn't critical and is not critical of evolution and in fact promotes it and has for some decades now, they simply allowed this event to still take place due to free speech.

Also, as Papias pointed out, Hitler refers to himself several times as a Christian, as someone who believes in God. It's undeniable. My point there was simple and must have passed over you: Hitler was not just influenced by whatever distorted belief of evolution he had, as the YEC article claims, and seems to gloss over the fact that he thought of himself Christian too. That's really all I'm saying.

 

[mark kennedy]

Nothing to do with YEC? As that'd what I claimed. And yes, it had everything to do with that belief. The Creation Summit hosted the event. They are all YEC's.

You actually have no idea what YEC is and as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing.

They even handed out free creation science DVD's. Explain how this is not creationism, or YEC? Yes there was ID talks. Some Big Bang discussion. The overall purpose is to promote scientific evidence for creationism. On their website it even states that they believe the, "evidence supports creation and, therefore, that creation should be taught as a viable alternative to evolution and other such theories." That you are claiming this is not YEC or creationism is the only apparent misnomer here, certainly not the OP. And so tell me, what is the difference between your views and their views in creation?

Creation would seem to have become synonymous with anything remotely theistic. After the culture wars ended I was wondering how long it would take for them to target any remaining theistic intellectual discussion. Looks like they are ramping up for that now.

Also MSU wasn't critical and is not critical of evolution and in fact promotes it and has for some decades now, they simply allowed this event to still take place due to free speech.

Yea, you see a little of that here and there.

Also, as Papias pointed out, Hitler refers to himself several times as a Christian, as someone who believes in God. It's undeniable. My point there was simple and must have passed over you: Hitler was not just influenced by whatever distorted belief of evolution he had, as the YEC article claims, and seems to gloss over the fact that he thought of himself Christian too. That's really all I'm saying.

Hitler like all the Nazis were pagan, they practiced occult mysticism. Darwinism is the only thing Europeans had in common leading up to World War II and they were unanimous. He was never anything remotely Christian. The political rhetoric he was used probably courted the Italian crowds, which came to be the only allies in his racially centered rampage. Of course the Jews were considered inferior which is absolutely condemned in Scripture and the promise of the Gospel. The Slavic races were targeted for enslavement and he was putting on a pretense of Christian rhetoric not unlike the Modernist.

What is and is not Christian is called essential doctrine and I've always been encouraged by the fact that Darwinians are clueless what is included.

 

[elopez]

You actually have no idea what YEC is and as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing.



Creation would seem to have become synonymous with anything remotely theistic. After the culture wars ended I was wondering how long it would take for them to target any remaining theistic intellectual discussion. Looks like they are ramping up for that now.



Yea, you see a little of that here and there.



Hitler like all the Nazis were pagan, they practiced occult mysticism. Darwinism is the only thing Europeans had in common leading up to World War II and they were unanimous. He was never anything remotely Christian. The political rhetoric he was used probably courted the Italian crowds, which came to be the only allies in his racially centered rampage. Of course the Jews were considered inferior which is absolutely condemned in Scripture and the promise of the Gospel. The Slavic races were targeted for enslavement and he was putting on a pretense of Christian rhetoric not unlike the Modernist.

What is and is not Christian is called essential doctrine and I've always been encouraged by the fact that Darwinians are clueless what is included.

YEC is the belief the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old, based off a liberal interpretation of Genesis. If you your own subjective definition that you think differentiates you and this group of YEC, again, as I once asked, I'd like to know what that actually is. As of now it appears your simply trying to distance yourself from this certain group without any basis for doing so.

"Creation" is a vague term and can be used to describe any religious or cultural belief about origins, some of which may not be theistic at all. I am talking about YEC, and a group of YEC, who put on this event. Really this whole point you're going on about seems irrelevant.

And again, I'm not saying Hitler was Christian. I'm saying he thought he was just as he thought he he was other things.

 

[MKJ]

Well, OP, I think your assessment that religion was what was driving Hitler is largely wrong, especially if you want to identify that with Christianity. The sense of having a divine right, strange as it may seem, isn't really dependant on being in any conventional way religious and certianly not on being Christian - it could equallly stem from some sort of sense of generic World-spirit driving things, and I think that is really a more accurate way to describe the Nazi programme - apart from the whole nut-job aspect.

I do think that sometimes those of us who are interested in science miss the sense in which scientific paradigms or ideas lend themselves, almost inevitabily, to the way we structure our thoughts about many different things. And I think many of us have little enough sense of history that we don't realize the extent to which new ideas about evolution were really being taken up in all kinds of ways. Just like Enlightenment thinking about a clock-maker god has a relation to their scientific ideas about body and nature as a sort of machine, and to the attempts to set up new whole-cloth political systems based on constitutions, ideas about evolution becan, and in many ways are still, influencing our ideas in other areas.

People in the early 20th century really did get very much into this sort of eugenics mindset, social Darwinism, and they connected it to other ideas as well.

For Hitler, he saw religion in an almost Marxists way, as something that could be useful to move people and control them, but was ultimatly tosh.

Of course, these YEC people are basically idiots to connect it to scientific evolution as a subject - though I think it might actually be interesting to look at in another way, as I suspect we may be in the beginnings of a resurgence of eugenic ideas and attitudes in the wider culture. I think that today that actually doesn't have a strong connection to evolution per se, its origins lie elsewhere.