Year 2038: The Return of the King?

[Butch5]

Um, yes you are. You're trying to put precise dates on when Jesus will return. I think that falls into the definition of prophesying.

Again, why is this any different to the hundreds of others who have claimed to have irrefutable proof of when it will happen?

Prophesying is speaking the word of the Lord, I'm simply trying to figure out when He will return. Jesus told His disciples to become ready and to watch. You can't do that if you have no idea when to watch or what to look for. Paul told the Thessalonians,

KJV 1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.​

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. (1Th 5:1-5 KJV)

Paul had told the Thessalonians what to expect so that they would be ready and watching.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

but is a "persons truth" actually True & Correct?

Only time will tell

NKJV) 1 Corinthians 12:10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another [different] kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.


.....

 

[Achilles6129]

Why is this thread any different from the dozens and dozens of others which have confidently predicted when Jesus will return or when great catastrophes will occur, yet all have been wrong.

Why is this any different from all the other false prophets?

Um, yes you are. You're trying to put precise dates on when Jesus will return. I think that falls into the definition of prophesying.

Again, why is this any different to the hundreds of others who have claimed to have irrefutable proof of when it will happen?

There's nothing wrong with trying to say when Christ will return so long as we admit it's all speculation (and I have). I have stated that this is nothing more than me speculating. Isaac Newton did the exact same thing with his 2060 date, which I disagree with (I've stated the reasons why).

Further, it is impossible to be 'disappointed' by this date, as I have fully admitted that if we get to the year 2036 and nothing has happened then Christ is not returning in 2038.

As Christians, we are commanded to 'watch' for Christ's return, that we may not 'slumber'.

Let me ask you a few questions.

Why do you disagree with his date?

In order to say why I'd have to post a study of when I think man was created (going off of OT ages).

It seems to me that you don't think the sign of Christ's second coming is 'As lightening flashes from the east to the west so shall the coming of the Son be', is that correct? If not what do you believe the sgin is?

This is talking about the actual return of Christ. Christ is warning against 'false Christs' in this passage. I am going off of the assumption that the sign of Christ's first coming (that the wise men saw in the east) will be the sign of his second coming. I believe this sign to be the conjunction of Jupiter/Regulus in Leo which occurred on Sep. 11, 3 BC.

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post #1:

Year 2038: The Return of the King?

That year is indeed possible, although Jesus could return before that. For Mt. 24:34 could mean the temporal generation that saw the 1948 re-establishment of Israel (which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree: Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43) won't pass (i.e. die off completely) until the tribulation and 2nd coming are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Ps. 90:10), or 120 years (Gen. 6:3).

This doesn't require the 2nd coming will occur right before (like 1 year) before that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948; in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6) will last 7 years (Dan. 9:27), the 1st year of the tribulation didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

There is a holiday where everyone rejoices, makes merry, and sends gifts one to another - and that holiday is Christmas.

What's being celebrated in Rev. 11:10 isn't Christmas, but only the death of the 2 witnesses. People "shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them", not because it's Christmas.

Jesus Christ returns very quickly after the resurrection of the two witnesses . . .

The two witnesses will bring their plagues upon the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3) of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6). That's why the reign of the Antichrist will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). But Jesus may not return for 75 days after the death & resuscitation of the 2 witnesses. For the 2 witnesses will be resuscitated & taken up into heaven even before the trib's 7th trumpet sounds (Rev. 11:12,15). And nothing requires Jesus' return will occur very quickly (from a human point of view) after the sounding of the trib's 7th trumpet and the declaration of the replacement of the Antichrist's (the AC's) (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-8, 12:6) with the reign of Jesus (Rev. 11:15). For a "time" (Rev. 11:18) can last awhile (Rev. 12:14). (It's like if someone said "It's time the house gets sold"; this doesn't mean it will get sold very quickly.)

The only part of Rev. 11:18 that will happen very quickly (from a human point of view) after the trib's 7th trumpet sounds is "thy wrath is come", for the plagues of the vials of God's wrath (Rev. 16), the final stage of the trib, will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1). So the trib's 7th trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19), even though it will be the last trumpet to sound during the trib, won't be the resurrection "last trump" of 1 Cor. 15:52. The resurrection "last trump" will sound after the entire trib of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 is over, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31), which won't occur until Rev. 19, and which is when the church will be resurrected (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thes. 4:15-16, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

Before the 2nd coming, the final, Rev. 16 stage of the trib could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Rev. 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the AC's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin at the setting up of the abomination of desolation (the AOD) (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36), & Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the setting up of the AOD (Dan. 12:12, Rev. 16:15). An analogy for the possible 75-day vials delay between Jesus taking legal possession of the earth (Rev. 11:15) & his return to take de facto, physical possession of it (Rev. chs. 19-20) would be someone in New York legally inheriting a house in California 75 days before he moves to California to live in that house.

At Jesus' return, he'll resurrect & judge only the church (1 Cor. 15:21-23, Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27), & then he'll marry it (Rev. 19:7). Immediately after that, Rev. 19:11-21 will occur. So both the resurrection and the rewarding of the church spoken of in Rev. 11:18, as well as the destroying of the destroyers of the earth spoken of in Rev. 11:18, could occur 75 days after the 7th trumpet's sounding. And because a "time" can last awhile, this would still be well within the "time" in Rev. 11:18. Everyone not resurrected & judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected & judged at the time of Rev. 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus & the resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6). Both resurrections & judgments can still occur within the "time" of Rev. 11:18, for the original Greek word (kairos, G2540) translated there as "time" can refer to even quite a long period. E.g., the same Greek word is used in 2 Cor. 6:2 to refer to the "time" of people getting saved, which has been going on for thousands of years.

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post #8:

. . . the plagues are mostly literal.

If you mean the plagues of Rev. chs. 15-16, that's right.

The world will experience the 7 last plagues (Rev. 15:1), also called the 7 vials (or bowls) of God's wrath (Rev. 16:1, Rev. 21:9), only after the (never-fulfilled) Rev. chs. 6-15 have been fulfilled. At the 1st vial, awful sores will appear on only those people who will have received the mark of the Antichrist (the individual man aspect of the beast), and worshipped his image (Rev. 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Rev. 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all natural sources of fresh water will become blood (Rev. 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Rev. 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic pole reversal which could occur during the tribulation. At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Rev. 16:10).

At the 6th vial, the Euphrates will dry up and remain dry long enough so that all the armies of "the kings of the east" (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Japan, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia) can all easily cross the riverbed and gather themselves at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they've gathered together there with all the other armies of the earth (Rev. 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "Battle of Armageddon"). Instead, they will travel together south to attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns from heaven and defeats all of them (Zech. 14:2-21, Rev. 19:19-21). Also at the 6th vial, it will be unclean spirits like frogs -- which will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Rev. 16:13) -- which will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH (Rev. 16:14, Rev. 19:19).

At the 7th vial, there will be a huge earthquake that will affect the whole world (Rev. 16:17-20), and 100-lb. hailstones will pummel the earth (Rev. 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when the symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Rev. chs. 17-18) will be destroyed (Rev. 16:19). She represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Rev. 17:18), economic (Rev. 18:11), and religious (Rev. 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Rev. 18:3) and throughout history (Rev. 17:9-10). The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire all that "Babylon" represents (Rev. 17:16-17a) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Rev. 16:19), possibly with nukes (and possibly with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number 6 in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Rev. 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Rev. 16:17b) of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:2-20:6, Mt. 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Satan/Lucifer (Isa. 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the trib, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and the 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil YHWH is about to begin [Rev. 16:14, 19:19], a battle which we'll win, and so we'll be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma. So let us now completely destroy this awful prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, completely burn up all the gewgaws which we've hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break every chain of attachment to this vile material realm, that we might more freely ascend back into our rightful place in the blessed Pleroma".

Of course this will be a total lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: Jn. 10:30, Zech. 14:3-4) will completely defeat the armies of the world, arrayed against YHWH (Rev. 16:14, 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent millennium (Rev. 20:1-6). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezek. 36:35, Isa. 51:3). And after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Rev. 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Rev. 21:2-4).

 

[Achilles6129]

That year is indeed possible, although Jesus could return before that. For Mt. 24:34 could mean the temporal generation that saw the 1948 re-establishment of Israel (which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree: Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43) won't pass (i.e. die off completely) until the tribulation and 2nd coming are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Ps. 90:10), or 120 years (Gen. 6:3).

It could. However, it is most likely the generation that 'sees all these things' - meaning the signs mentioned in Mt. 24:

"32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Mt. 24:32-34

Therefore, it seems the 'generation' is the generation which sees the signs Christ mentions.

This doesn't require the 2nd coming will occur right before (like 1 year) before that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948; in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6) will last 7 years (Dan. 9:27), the 1st year of the tribulation didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

This is true. I wonder when the tribulation will be. This thread has been an attempt to isolate when it may be.

What's being celebrated in Rev. 11:10 isn't Christmas, but only the death of the 2 witnesses. People "shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them", not because it's Christmas.

You and I disagree on this - we've talked about it before.

The two witnesses will bring their plagues upon the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b-3) of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6). That's why the reign of the Antichrist will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15).

Agreed. Clearly the two witnesses are two extraordinarily powerful individuals - God has allowed them this power during the GT.

But Jesus may not return for 75 days after the death & resuscitation of the 2 witnesses.

I disagree with this view. In my opinion, the resurrection of the two witnesses will be the 'midnight cry' that the bridesmaids hear in Mt. 25. The bridegroom comes very shortly after the 'midnight cry' - so shortly, in fact, that the foolish bridesmaids do not have time to obtain the Holy Spirit before he returns. In addition, we have this statement by Jesus Christ:

"14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Mt. 24:14

The end comes after the gospel has been preached as a 'witness' to all nations. Jesus Christ is referring to the two witnesses here. 'Witness' is #3142, martyrion, which is most similar to the word 'testimony' found in Rev. 11 (#3141, martyria).

Before the 2nd coming, the final, Rev. 16 stage of the trib could last for 75 days. For the 1st vial in Rev. 16 could be poured out immediately after the 1,260 days of the AC's worldwide reign, which 1,260 days could begin at the setting up of the abomination of desolation (the AOD) (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31,36),

You are correct about the AOD - it may be placed at the beginning of the GT or it could be placed near the end.

At Jesus' return, he'll resurrect & judge only the church (1 Cor. 15:21-23, Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27), & then he'll marry it (Rev. 19:7). Immediately after that, Rev. 19:11-21 will occur.

I agree except in perhaps the small details. It seems to me that Christ may perform the judgment of the church after the AC is destroyed - see Rev. 20:4 for more details. However, I do believe, as you do, that the entire church (everyone who has ever professed the name of Christ) during the church age is resurrected and judged - I believe (although I must study this out more) that those of them who are 'fake' Christians are sent to the LOF right then and there - see Mt. 7:21-23.

Everyone not resurrected & judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected & judged at the time of Rev. 20:11-15, which won't occur until sometime after the returned Jesus & the resurrected church have reigned on the earth for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6).

Totally agree.

If you mean the plagues of Rev. chs. 15-16, that's right.

Actually, I believe that most of the plagues in Revelation are literal, which includes the seals, trumpets, and vials. Christ's discourse in Mt. 24, Mk. 13, (and especially) Lu. 21 show this.

The world will experience the 7 last plagues (Rev. 15:1), also called the 7 vials (or bowls) of God's wrath (Rev. 16:1, Rev. 21:9), only after the (never-fulfilled) Rev. chs. 6-15 have been fulfilled. [/quote]

I only partially agree. I believe that the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh vial are all describing the same event - the second coming of Jesus Christ.

At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Rev. 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic pole reversal which could occur during the tribulation.

I think the sun 'scorching' with 'fire' may be a reference to vastly increased heat from the sun, although you may be right about the CME.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Rev. 16:10).

Possibly. Or the 'seat of the beast' could simply be the place where the beast reigns from, which, in my opinion, would be the UN in NYC.

Instead, they will travel together south to attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns from heaven and defeats all of them (Zech. 14:2-21, Rev. 19:19-21).

Agreed. Zech. 14 is a good reference. Isa. 34, Joel 3, etc., also describe this. Ezek. 38 is, as well, a description of the AC.

Also at the 6th vial, it will be unclean spirits like frogs -- which will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Rev. 16:13) -- which will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH (Rev. 16:14, Rev. 19:19).

Not quite sure if these are literal miracles or advanced technology (which is what I believe the Scripture is describing when it talks about 'miracles' - see Rev. 13 and the 'false prophet'). However, there is no question that there are evil spirits leading them over to attack Israel.

The 7th vial will also be when the symbolic harlot "Babylon" (Rev. chs. 17-18) will be destroyed (Rev. 16:19). She represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Rev. 17:18), economic (Rev. 18:11), and religious (Rev. 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Rev. 18:3) and throughout history (Rev. 17:9-10).

Not sure if I agree with this. I think that Babylon represents a nation (and a city).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire all that "Babylon" represents (Rev. 17:16-17a) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Rev. 16:19), possibly with nukes

It would have to be with nuclear weapons - the description in the book of Revelation makes that pretty clear. Of course, it's actually God who puts it in their heart to destroy Babylon, since Babylon is the apex of rebellion against Him.

They could do this under the direction of Satan/Lucifer (Isa. 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

'Lucifer' in Isa. 14 is actually a mistranslated name that shouldn't be there to begin with. Also, if we read carefully in Isa. 14, the individual being described is not Satan but the AC.

And after the millennium and subsequent events are over (Rev. 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Rev. 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Rev. 21:2-4).

The 'new heaven and the new earth' is talking about a new universe. The old universe has completely passed away. The word 'heaven' that you are citing need not refer only to the sky, but rather to the celestial heaven (i.e., the 'stars fell from heaven'). It is an entirely new universe - this old, sinful universe has passed away.

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post #46:

Clearly the two witnesses are two extraordinarily powerful individuals - God has allowed them this power during the GT.

It could be the same power they showed in the OT. For Rev. 11:3-12's 2 witnesses could be Moses & Elijah, for the 2 people seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Rev. 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses & Elijah (Mt. 17:3). They could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies mid-trib, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues the 2 witnesses will cause (Rev. 11:6,5) will match plagues Moses & Elijah caused in the OT (Jas. 5:17, Ex. 7:20, 2 Kin. 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kin. 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from the devil (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken it into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, e.g., Lazarus' body was resuscitated back to mortal life (Jn. 12:1). This would explain how both Moses & Elijah could appear alive & well at the transfiguration (Mt. 17:3).

As was pointed out in a prior post, the 2 witnesses will bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Rev. 11:2b-3,6) of the AC's worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5,7, 12:6,14). That's why the AC's reign will legally end (Rev. 11:15) right after the time of the 2 witnesses on the earth will end (Rev. 11:12-15). The plagues they'll bring (Rev. 11:6) will be part of the trib's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Rev. 11:14, 9:12-13). They'll be taken up into heaven before the trib's 7th trumpet sounds (Rev. 11:12,15).

They may not be (as is sometimes claimed) witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Rev. 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people & bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason there'll be 2 witnesses (Rev. 11:3) who'll bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Rev. 11:6,10b) would be because at least 2 witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Tim. 5:19). At the same time, the 2 "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Rev. 11:7-9), for the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Rev. 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Rev. 17:6).

In my opinion, the resurrection of the two witnesses will be the 'midnight cry' that the bridesmaids hear in Mt. 25.

Matthew 25:6's "midnight" could represent mid-tribulation, when the abomination of desolation (the AOD), possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist, will be set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). So, when it says "at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh" (Matthew 25:6), this could mean that at the mid-tribulation point when the AOD is set up, the church will be given the knowledge of the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming, that date being the 1,335th day after the day on which the AOD is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, cf. Revelation 16:15).

. . . the foolish bridesmaids do not have time to obtain the Holy Spirit before he returns.

In the 10 virgins parable, the extra oil (Matthew 25:4) could represent not the Holy Spirit, but the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter into the marriage of the church at the second coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post #46:

You are correct about the AOD - it may be placed at the beginning of the GT or it could be placed near the end.

Rather, in the middle of the trib. For from the day on which "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15). I.e., Dan. 12:11-12 (and Rev. 16:15) could mean that exactly 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (the AOD) (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a 3rd Jewish temple (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31), Jesus will return, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's (the AC's) worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-8, 12:6) will begin when the AOD's set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the AC's worldwide reign are over (Rev. 11:15,19, 15:5-16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over a period of 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the AOD's set up (Dan. 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Dan. 12:12/Rev. 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Rev. 16:12), encouraging those in the church still alive on the earth to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus returns on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the armies of the world to Armageddon (Rev. 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zech. 14:2-21, Rev. 19:19-21).

It seems to me that Christ may perform the judgment of the church after the AC is destroyed - see Rev. 20:4 for more details.

Rev. 20:4's "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them" refers to during the millennium on the earth (Rev. 20:4-6, Rev. 5:10), when, for example, the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones "judging" the 12 tribes of Israel (Mt. 19:28, Lk. 22:30) in the sense of ongoing rule, like the "judges" ruled Israel in the book of Judges.

I believe that the sixth seal, the seventh trumpet, and the seventh vial are all describing the same event - the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Actually, none of them show the 2nd coming. It isn't shown until Rev. 19. Rev. chs. 6-22 are chronological, insofar as the future trib of Rev. chs. 6-18 will begin with the events of seals 2-6, occurring in the order shown in Rev. 6:3-14. After the events of seal 6, Rev. 7 will occur. Then seal 7 will be unsealed & out of it will come the trib's 7 trumpets (Rev. 8:1-6). Then the events of trumpets 1-6 in Rev. 8:7-9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Rev. 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the AC) will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Rev. chs. 11-14 (Rev. 11:2b-3, 12:6,14, 13:5,7, 14:9-13). Then trumpet 7 will sound, announcing the legal end of the AC's reign (Rev. 11:15). Out of trumpet 7's heavenly temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (or bowls) (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1), the trib's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Rev. 16. Only after the seventh vial (or bowl), the final event of the tribulation, is completed (Rev. 16:17,19, 19:2), will Jesus return and rapture (gather together) and marry the church (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Mt. 24:29-31).

Or the 'seat of the beast' could simply be the place where the beast reigns from, which, in my opinion, would be the UN in NYC.

Rev. 16:10 refers also to "his kingdom", which will be worldwide (Rev. 13:7-8). Also, his "seat" is his "thronos", which is that of Satan himself. For Rev. 13:2b refers to the future point in time when Satan (the dragon, Rev. 12:9) will give the AC (the individual-man aspect of the beast) Satan's own earthly throne (seat) and power, so that the AC will have power over all the nations of the earth (Rev. 13:7). This is what Satan offered Jesus at one point, if Jesus would worship Satan (Lk. 4:5-7). In the 1st century AD, Satan's earthly throne was located in the city of Pergamum (in what's now the country of Turkey) (Rev. 2:12-13). Satan's earthly throne could be the Great Altar of Pergamum, also called the Pergamon Altar, which in ancient times was sometimes included as one of the 7 wonders of the world.

It may not be a coincidence that shortly after the Pergamon Altar was moved to Berlin around 1900 AD, both World Wars were started from Berlin, or that "the Nazi-era architect Albert Speer used the Pergamon Altar as the model for the Zeppelintribüne, 1934-37. The Führer's pulpit was in the center of the tribune" (Pergamon Altar - Wikipedia) (quote has been deleted for some reason). When the AC is given power over the whole earth (Rev. 13:7), his throne could be located in the center of the actual Pergamon Altar, which he could move from Berlin to a main temple to himself (and to Lucifer/Satan) in the literal, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq). For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zech. 5:8,11), and the AC is called "that Wicked" (2 Thes. 2:8).

Ezek. 38 is, as well, a description of the AC.

Actually, it isn't, for Ezek. 38 won't happen until after the millennium (Rev. 20:7-10).

The 'new heaven and the new earth' is talking about a new universe.

It isn't, just a new atmosphere & surface for the planet earth.

It is an entirely new universe - this old, sinful universe has passed away.

No, for there could be thousands of inhabited planets in the universe that never fell in to sin, and many billions of others which have already been regenerated from past sins like this earth will be in the future (Rev. 21), and many billions of others which are in the same fallen yet not redeemed state that this earth is in now, but which won't be regenerated until some thousands or even millions of years after this earth has been regenerated.

 

[Blackwater Babe]

I have read Newton's comments on the book of Revelation and do not agree with them. It seems he holds to a metaphorical interpretation of the entire book. However, from a comparison with Christ's remarks in Luke 21, etc., as well as just studying Revelation, it is evident that the plagues are mostly literal.

Do we get literal multi headed, frog spitting dragons too?

 

[Achilles6129]

Do we get literal multi headed, frog spitting dragons too?

I said that most of the plagues in Revelation were literal. If you look at my reason for this, it is based upon Christ's remarks in Mt. 24, Mk. 13, Lu. 21, etc.

For example:

"25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken." Lu. 21:25-26

As another example:

"21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Mt. 24:21-22

It is clear, then, that the events happening in Revelation (that is, the seals/trumpets/vials) are mostly literal plagues. As another example:

"3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Rev. 16:3-6

This plague, for example, must be literal or the entire purpose of the plague is negated. The point of the plague is that they have shed the blood of saints and prophets and now they are getting blood to drink. If the plague is not literal, then it is pointless.

Therefore, the plagues in Revelation are mostly literal.

As far as Bible2's responses, we're just going to have to disagree on many of those points.

 

[Bible2]

Blackwater Babe said in post #49:

Do we get literal multi headed, frog spitting dragons too?

Satan is a literal, 7-headed serpentine dragon (Rev. 12:3,9), also called leviathan (Isa. 27:1, Ps. 74:14, Job 41:1,34). He could have begun as a dinosaur born on the earth some 66 million years ago, near the end the age of the dinosaurs. Over millions of years before his birth, his dinosaur species could have evolved to have consciousness, and his 7-headedness, which could have been a fortuitous (or a miraculous) mutation, could have been heralded by his species as the arrival of a super-consciousness into the world. As he grew up as a conscious dinosaur, leviathan could have come to know & worship God with all his heart. God could have then granted him immortality & taken him into heaven to serve God as a cherubim. Cherubims are a type of angelic creature (Ezek. 10) which could include individuals shaped like different animals, like how seraphims are a different type of angelic creature (Isa. 6:2-3) which includes individuals shaped like different animals (Rev. 4:7-8). As a cherubim in heaven, leviathan could have been assigned to the office of "the morning star", and so been given the name "Lucifer" (which means "the morning star").

After spending some 66 million years in heaven as a very contented cherubim, perhaps even as the greatest angelic creature of all (from this planet), Lucifer could have been assigned by God to go back to earth to be a "covering cherub" over the Garden of Eden (Ezek. 28:13-14), to watch over that special, local garden & its special, individual humans named Adam & Eve miraculously created by God only some 6,000 years ago. God could have also at that time given the as-yet-unfallen Lucifer authority over all the rest of the earth (Lk. 4:5-6). But Lucifer could have chafed at his new assignment, seeing it as beneath his dignity. He could have felt like a long-time chief of staff of a U.S. President would feel if he were suddenly assigned by the President to leave his high position in the White House to go baby-sit two pet salamanders in a hothouse in Alaska.

From Eden, Lucifer could have repeatedly requested God to let him return to his high position in heaven, only to be refused, until Lucifer in his heart fell into rebellion against God & vowed to himself that eventually he'd ascend back into heaven & take rule over all the angelic creatures there regardless of what God wanted (Isa. 14:13-14). And so the fallen Lucifer became Satan (cf. Lk. 10:18), which means the "Adversary". While still in Eden, as possibly his 1st act of open rebellion against God, Satan decided to deceive Eve into disobeying God (Gen. 3), knowing that this would result in her (& her offspring) becoming mortal (Gen. 2:17). In the future, he'll deceive the world (Rev. 12:9) into worshipping himself & the Antichrist (the AC) (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Rev. 13:4,7-8), knowing this will result in billions of humans ending up in eternal suffering (Rev. 14:9-11), the same eternal suffering he knows he himself will end up in (Rev. 12:12c, 20:10,15, Mt. 25:41,46).

Do we get literal multi headed, frog spitting dragons too?

Re: "frog spitting", are you referring to Rev. 16:13? If so, that is literal: Near the end of the coming trib, literal "unclean spirits like frogs" will come out of the mouth of not only Lucifer, but also the AC, & the False Prophet (Rev. 16:13), & these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth & perform literal, amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Rev. 16:16) in an attempt to fight & defeat YHWH himself (Rev. 16:14, 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will then travel south & pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus (who is YHWH: Jn. 10:30) returns from heaven & defeats them completely (Rev. 19:11-20:6, Zech. 14:2-21).

 

[Bible2]

florida2 said in post #17:

I would just like to throw Matthew 24:36 into the mix here.

Mt. 24:36,42,44 is referring to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the trib (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the trib, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the immediate context of Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur & to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, & day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib & symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he'll come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the 1st verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we'd have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who'd say that? For the Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth & show them what'll happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur & to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having 1st revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).

 

[gods prophetess]

how do you even know that about the return of christ? no one knows this not even the amgels in heaven only jesus does ok b

etter watch it praying for you

 

[Achilles6129]

how do you even know that about the return of christ? no one knows this not even the amgels in heaven only jesus does ok b

etter watch it praying for you

Well, I wouldn't say that I know anything, I would just say that I'm speculating. I would hope that all Christians would watch for Christ's return, look for signs, etc.

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post #54:

I would hope that all Christians would watch for Christ's return

Amen.

During the future trib of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, Christians will have to "watch" (stay awake, spiritually) for Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 25:13), which won't occur until immediately after the trib (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6). For if a Christian isn't "watching" (staying awake, spiritually) for the 2nd coming, it will take that Christian by surprise (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3), & that Christian will lose his salvation at that time because of such things as unrepentant sin (Lk. 12:45-46, Heb. 10:26-29, 1 Cor. 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Mt. 25:26,30, Jn. 15:2a, Rom. 2:6-8), or apostasy (Heb. 6:4-8, Jn. 15:6, 2 Tim. 2:12b).

 

[Bible2]

Butch5 said in post #35:

Why do you disagree with his date?

Various scriptures make it possible to estimate the year BC Adam (as opposed to the earth) was created, by working back from the year BC Solomon's temple began to be built: Historians say it began to be built ~966 BC. And the scriptures show it began to be built 480 years after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (1 Kin. 6:1). And Israel had spent 430 years in Egypt before the Exodus (Ex. 12:40-41). And Israel entered Egypt when Jacob was 130 (Gen. 47:9). And Jacob was born when his father Isaac was 60 (Gen. 25:26). And Isaac was born when his father Abraham was 100 (Gen. 21:5). And Abraham was born when his father Terah was ~70 (Gen. 11:26). And Terah was born when his father Nahor was 29 (Gen. 11:24). And Nahor was born when his father Serug was 30 (Gen. 11:22). And Serug was born when his father Reu was 32 (Gen. 11:20). And Reu was born when his father Peleg was 30 (Gen. 11:18).

And Peleg was born when his father Eber was 34 (Gen. 11:16). And Eber was born when his father Salah was 30 (Gen. 11:14). And Salah was born when his father Arphaxad was 35 (Gen. 11:12). And Arphaxad was born when his father Shem was 100 (Gen. 11:10). And Shem was born when his father Noah was 502 (Gen. 11:10 & 7:6). And Noah was born when his father Lamech was 182 (Gen. 5:28-29). And Lamech was born when his father Methuselah was 187 (Gen. 5:25). And Methuselah was born when his father Enoch was 65 (Gen. 5:21). And Enoch was born when his father Jared was 162 (Gen. 5:18). And Jared was born when his father Mahalaleel was 65 (Gen. 5:15). And Mahalaleel was born when his father Cainan was 70 (Gen. 5:12). And Cainan was born when his father Enos was 90 (Gen. 5:9). And Enos was born when his father Seth was 105 (Gen. 5:6). And Seth was born when his father Adam was 130 (Gen. 5:3).

Adding up the numbers of years above, we see Adam was created ~4114 BC. This lines up with the fact our current human civilization began ~4,000 BC. If Adam was created ~4114 BC, this means 6,000 years since Adam's creation were completed back at the end of ~1886 AD, & the 7th millennium began ~1887 AD. (But this doesn't require the millennium of Rev. 20:4-6 has begun yet.) Also, it's curious the next year (1888 AD) Blavatsky published her book (The Secret Doctrine) referring to the "New Age". Also, it's curious the Mayan calendar begins in 3114 BC, exactly 1,000 years after 4114 BC. Also, the numbers of years in the scriptures referenced above show Abraham (who was 1st promised the land of Israel by God: Ex. 32:13) was born ~1948 years after Adam's creation, just as the modern state of Israel was established in 1948 AD.

 

[Gary7]

I believe there is an asteroid named Apophis scheduled to make a very close approach in 2029 dipping below many satellite orbits. It comes around again 7 years later in 2036 and depending on how much it deviates through gravitational pull because of its previous close encounter with the Earth, we might just see your prediction come true.

 

[Achilles6129]

I believe there is an asteroid named Apophis scheduled to make a very close approach in 2029 dipping below many satellite orbits. It comes around again 7 years later in 2036 and depending on how much it deviates through gravitational pull because of its previous close encounter with the Earth, we might just see your prediction come true.

Right. Apophis has a near-encounter in 2029 and another near-enounter in 2036. Of course, I believe that Jesus Christ will return in the 2030s (possibly in 2038 as I have indicated) - so this could be quite significant.

Predicting Apophis' Earth Encounters in 2029 and 2036

 

[TG MD]

I agree with the crucifixion date of Apr. 3, 33 AD. based on the calculations done before:

From Daniels 70 week prophecy:
173 880 days ÷ 365.24219 days / tropical year = 476.0676744 tropical years, which equals 476 years and 24.7 days. (0.0676744 years x 365.24219 days per year = 24.7 days)
Again from the date of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem

From the 70 week prophecy of Daniel, adding 476 years to March 4, 444 BC(the date of the decree) would come to March 4, 33 AD (476 – 444 = 32 but there is no year ‘0 AD’, so it ends up being the year 33 AD, and not 32 AD). Adding 24.7 (25 days) days to March 4, 33 AD would come to March 29, 33 AD. This was the day of Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem (John 12: 12-19), and it occurred on the first day of the week – Palm Sunday. Mary, the sister of Lazarus, had anointed Jesus with perfume at the house of Lazarus the day before in Bethany (John 12:1-11), hence, the coming of the ‘Anointed One’ (Daniel 9: 25).

Perpetual calendars confirm that Mar. 29, 33AD was a Sunday (www.timeanddate.com) and the following Friday, April 3, 33AD, was in fact a full moon (in fact a partial eclipse as confirmed by NASA moon phase data). This date also correspond to the correct Hebrew dates of Nisan 14 (which of course has to be true as the Hebrew calendar is a lunar calendar).
If we believe that there are 6000 of human existence before the millennium (which I do) we would be easily able to figure out when that would be except for the fact that the Jews messed with the dates of their calendar. (Do a search on the missing years in the Jewish calendar).
Various results have been calculated based on genealogies but there are conflicting results.
On a COMPLETELY THEORETICAL basis, what if the crucifixion of Jesus occurred at the 0.666 ratio of 6000 years? This would come to the year 3996. If this is true then the last 7 years before the millennium will occur from Sept 29, 2030 (this is Tishrei 1, the Jewish New Year), to Sept 10, 2037 (Tishrei 1).
The first day of the millennium will be Sept 11, 2037. Hmm. 9/11. Jesus Birthday (see goodnessofgodministries and search "when was Christ born" for an explanation of 9/11 as the birthday of Jesus).
When I read your line of comments, I could hardly believe it. You guys were discussing 2036 and 2038, and the date I came up with a couple of years ago is right in the middle.

P.S. for those who want to quote "no one knows the day or hour", I don't know the day or the hour of his return. But I do believe in a pre-trib rapture, so I think that will occur in late Sept/early Oct 2030. Also, just humour those of us who cant help but asking these questions. God is not upset if we ask (James 1: 5).
Again PURE SPECULATION, I think that the star Betelgeuse (which means 'the coming') in the constellation Orion (which is based on the Hebrew name meaning "Light") may be the sign we are looking for. It makes sense..."the Coming Light" and Astronomers say that it is primed to go supernova and when it does it will be brighter than the moon. If this is true, it will be a sign that everyone will see and know about.

PPS. A woman's gestational period is 40 weeks but the egg is not released until 2 weeks after her last cycle. From that point, according to embryology test books it takes 7 days for the egg to travel through the fallopian tube and become implanted in the uterus (Langman's Medical Embriology, 5th ed. pg 37. Williams and Wilkins (c) 1985). You will never guess. Dec 25 is EXACTLY 37 weeks (259 days), prior to Sept 11. God is SO in control.

 

[Douggg]

P.S. for those who want to quote "no one knows the day or hour", I don't know the day or the hour of his return. But I do believe in a pre-trib rapture, so I think that will occur in late Sept/early Oct 2030.

If you changed what you are saying to no later than the end of 2030 the 70th week seven years will begin - I think you would be on pretty solid ground. It could happen long before than, and the rapture as well.