Yahushua, Yahusha or Jesus?

[Radagast]

Many were written in Greek because many were written to Greek speaking/reading gentiles throughout the empire.

And of course also to Greek speaking/reading Jews, of which there were many. Even in Palestine itself, contemporary synagogue inscriptions were mostly Greek in the coastal towns (and mostly Aramaic in rural areas).

And it's pretty clear that the New Testament was originally composed in Greek, although tradition suggests that the Gospel of Matthew relies partly on a Greek translation of an Aramaic proto-gospel (the so-called "Sayings of Our Lord").

My point was that "Jesus" is English and was never in any original manuscripts...

Yes, the original Greek manuscripts say Iēsous.

 

[Radagast]

I know this is off topic, but we have how many DSS manuscripts that have been found and they all date between 150BC and 70AD. And not one... not one... is in Greek.

Actually, 27 of the DSS manuscripts are in Greek, including everything from Cave 7.

The name Jesus is only in English bibles.

And in a whole lot of other European languages, like Norwegian and Portuguese. With slightly different vowels (e.g. "Jisas") in some non-European languages too. In different derivations from the Greek/Latin in other European and non-European languages (e.g. Jesu and イエス = Iesu). And in derivations from Aramaic in a handful of non-European languages (e.g. ईसा = Isa).

"Jesus" as a name does not appear as we see it as I wrote it until the 1700's and not as we can hear it until the early 1800's.

Not true. Here it is from 1636:

 

[Ken Rank]

Actually, 27 of the DSS manuscripts are in Greek, including everything from Cave 7.

27 of the many thousands and that is assuming you are even correct anyway?

Not true. Here it is from 1636

OK... I was speaking in general (it took time for the J to be fully accepted into the culture) and yet my point doesn't change, the J had the Y sound until 1800 and the French influence on our language.

You believe the Jewish Messiah and his Jewish disciples who lived in Judea... where the language of the Jews at the time was Aramaic in speech and Hebrew in the Temple... all running around speaking and writing in a language somebody like Peter considered loathsome until God opened his eyes in a vision? Oh... wait, that's right, you probably think that the vision was the OK to any animal???

 

[Radagast]

27 of the many thousands and that is assuming you are even correct anyway?

Feel free to look it up. You said there were none. Elledge says 3%.

where the language of the Jews at the time was Aramaic in speech and Hebrew in the Temple

Feel free to do some research on synagogue inscriptions in 1st century Palestine.

And if that's too much effort, look at the disciples with actual Greek names -- Philip, for example.

And why do you think the Jews translated the Old Testament into Greek? Why do the Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments of the Greek Old Testament?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Feel free to look it up. You said there were none. Elledge says 3%.



Feel free to do some research on synagogue inscriptions in 1st century Palestine.

And if that's too much effort, look at the disciples with actual Greek names -- Philip, for example.

And why do you think the Jews translated the Old Testament into Greek? Why do the Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments of the Greek Old Testament?

No doubt Greek was used in Judea. I mean it was one of the inscriptions on Yeshua's cross. It was used mainly for business purposes. Some of the writers of the NT used scribes who knew Greek.

 

[Radagast]

No doubt Greek was used in Judea. I mean it was one of the inscriptions on Yeshua's cross. It was used mainly for business purposes.

And for religious purposes. Jews in Palestine used the Septuagint. Fragments of the Septuagint are among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many ancient synagogues in Palestine have Greek inscriptions (particularly the ones in coastal towns). Here is one from a synagogue in Jerusalem (on the Ophel), dated to around the time of Jesus:

And, like I said, we have disciples with Greek names: Philip and Andrew. And Bartholomew may be an Aramaic-Greek combination, if it means "son of Ptolemy," as is generally believed.

Some of the writers of the NT used scribes who knew Greek.

All of the writers of the NT wrote in, or dictated in, Greek.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And for religious purposes. Jews in Palestine used the Septuagint. Fragments of the Septuagint are among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Many ancient synagogues in Palestine have Greek inscriptions (particularly the ones in coastal towns). Here is one from a synagogue in Jerusalem (on the Ophel), dated to around the time of Jesus:

And, like I said, we have disciples with Greek names: Philip and Andrew. And Bartholomew may be an Aramaic-Greek combination, if it means "son of Ptolemy," as is generally believed.



All of the writers of the NT wrote in, or dictated in, Greek.

I think a comparison was done and that was mostly true about the LXX in the 1st Century. Yes, some knew and wrote in Greek while others used scribes to write what they said in Greek. Matthew was likely the only Gospel written in Aramaic/Hebrew that we know of.

 

[Radagast]

others used scribes to write what they said in Greek.

Well (1) there is no evidence of that, and (2) the Greek of the NT is too good for that to be true. The NT was very clearly composed in Greek (though in some cases by people who had grown up speaking Aramaic).

Matthew was likely the only Gospel written in Aramaic/Hebrew that we know of.

The Gospel of Matthew was also written in Greek, although according to tradition it is based partly on a Greek translation of an Aramaic proto-gospel.

 

[Ken Rank]

And why do you think the Jews translated the Old Testament into Greek? Why do the Dead Sea Scrolls include fragments of the Greek Old Testament?

For the Hellenistic Jews who lived OUTSIDE of Judea.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Well (1) there is no evidence of that, and (2) the Greek of the NT is too good for that to be true. The NT was very clearly composed in Greek (though in some cases by people who had grown up speaking Aramaic).

Sure there is. You said they used dictation yourself!

 

[Radagast]

Sure there is. You said they used dictation yourself!

Paul clearly uses dictation. But he obviously dictated in Greek. There is absolutely no way on earth those complex Pauline sentences were created on-the-fly by a scribe translating from spoken Aramaic. And why would Paul need a translator anyway?

 

[Radagast]

For the Hellenistic Jews who lived OUTSIDE of Judea.

And the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in what part of the world? And the Greek synagogues in Judea?

 

[SteveCaruso]

For the Hellenistic Jews who lived OUTSIDE of Judea.

Given the number of Greek funerary inscriptions *in* Judea, a fair number of them lived there, too.

 

[AFrazier]

Yeah, in English...NT manuscripts were originally in Greek...

And in Greek his name was Iesous. Add the "J" sound and you have what we have today.

 

[AFrazier]

Many were written in Greek because many were written to Greek speaking/reading gentiles throughout the empire. My point was that "Jesus" is English and was never in any original manuscripts...

I think the point you are bringing up here is at the heart of this whole thing. The Apostles, who could have used the Hebrew version of his name even while speaking to Greek-speaking people, chose not to. And now, while speaking to English-speaking people, some choose to confuse matters by presuming to improve upon the example left to us by the Apostles themselves, and use the Hebrew version of his name, when no one in the entire New Testament did so.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Paul clearly uses dictation. But he obviously dictated in Greek. There is absolutely no way on earth those complex Pauline sentences were created on-the-fly by a scribe translating from spoken Aramaic. And why would Paul need a translator anyway?

Did not specifically say Paul. So you think ALL the writers of the NT knew Greek?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

And in Greek his name was Iesous. Add the "J" sound and you have what we have today.

Kind of. We have Jesus, not Jesous. More like from the Latin.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I think the point you are bringing up here is at the heart of this whole thing. The Apostles, who could have used the Hebrew version of his name even while speaking to Greek-speaking people, chose not to. And now, while speaking to English-speaking people, some choose to confuse matters by presuming to improve upon the example left to us by the Apostles themselves, and use the Hebrew version of his name, when no one in the entire New Testament did so.

What I find more interesting is that Yeshua is from Yehoshua. Why that did not end up as Joshua?

 

[AFrazier]

Kind of. We have Jesus, not Jesous. More like from the Latin.

I agree that it is from Latin. Iesus. But they are pronounced very much the same.

 

[AFrazier]

What I find more interesting is that Yeshua is from Yehoshua. Why that did not end up as Joshua?

Well, יהושע was translated Ἰησοῦς by those who spoke both languages. As I'm sure you know, the exact pronunciation of ancient Hebrew isn't known today. Diacritic-type marks for vowel pronunciations were added much later. Yeshua and Yehoshua are independent attempts to pronounce the same word, just as Joshua is. But according to the translators of the LXX, or Septuagint, Iesous is the preferred pronunciation, as it is used in the New Testament Greek.