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X-Baptist here 4 questions

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Hagios17

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Hi all:wave:

My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven:doh: … along with many other contrabutions, such as:

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism:eek: ),

Tithing (Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

Water Baptism (Should I get circumsised too?),

Arminianism (Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),

Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?


Awaiting many Baptist replies:)

P.S. I hope I don't sound too antagonistic, as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere


Hagios17 / Qadowsh17 / Saint17 (One who is… Hebrews 10:14 :)):wave:


 

HumbleMan

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Welcome to B/AB! :wave:

Hagios17 said:
Hi all:wave:

My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven:doh: … along with many other contrabutions, such as:

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism:eek: ),

Tithing (Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

Water Baptism (Should I get circumsised too?),

Arminianism (Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),

Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?


Awaiting many Baptist replies:)

P.S. I hope I don't sound too antagonistic, as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere


Hagios17 / Qadowsh17 / Saint17 (One who is… Hebrews 10:14 :)):wave:

I don't quite know how to take your post. No, not all Baptists are going to heaven. If you do find a perfect group, I would think you're already in heaven.

What other "contributions" are you speaking about?

About your specific questions:

Church membership: I don't place nearly as much importance on it as some people. I think most regular attendees know each other well enough to come together to make decisions about leadership, spending, and such.

Ricky Warren: Nice guy, knows the bible, and has a great grasp of social dynamics.

Tithing: I think some good posts were (and are) being made on the "Tithing/Missions" thread. Basically, I give what I feel I can. God knows my heart and my earthly responsibilities.

Water Baptism: by immersion for the remission of sin after being born again.

Arminianism: I don't like labels. I believe God's gift of salvation is free for all who wish to want it.

Legalism: By the grace of God I am loved, and by the grace of God I will love. Don't need a KJV, clean shaven face, or long sleeved shirt to believe in God's word and deeds.

as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere

Just curious, where can't you talk about this?
 
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tulc

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My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven:doh: … along with many other contrabutions, such as:

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism)
Who said Church membership is required?

Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism:eek: ),
Do you mean Rick Warren? If so, who said you had to believe what he teaches?

Tithing (Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),
Uhmm if you can find another way to pay for building upkeep and the Pastors salary I'm sure everyone would love to hear it! ;)

Water Baptism: by immersion for the remission of sin after being born again.
Did Jesus say repent and get circumcised? Did the Apostles baptise new believers or circumcise them? :)

Arminianism (Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),
You don't agree with it? That's fine, find the things you do agree with and support them!

Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )
Who said we have to obey the Law to be saved?

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?
See above!
tulc(hope that helps, and I kind of like Rick Warrens book) :)
 
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arunma

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Hagios17 said:
Hi all:wave:

My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven:doh: … along with many other contrabutions, such as:


Hello Josh. I don't hold it against you in any way for being an "ex-Baptist" (after all, it's not as if you've gone apostate from Christ), but I just wanted to remind you that Baptists are not a single denomination. There are liberal and conservative Baptists, as well as every type in between, and they have widely differing views. Personally I prefer to associate with fellow evangelicals rather than Baptists.

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

My church doesn't preach membership-based salvation. In fact, I'm not a member of my church at the moment (I'm waiting until I get into grad school next year, so that I'll know that I can live here for awhile). I can do everything that the members can do, except vote on official church business.

Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism:eek: ),[/QUOTE[

I haven't read Rick Warren. A friend gave me "the Purpose Driven Life," and I'll probably read it when I get around to it, but Warren's name has never been mentioned in my church. I think Warren is a member of the SBC. But his opinions don't represent any major Baptist or evangelical denomination.

Tithing (Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),


The only thing my pastor has said about tithing is that Christians should tithe. He's specifically said that we don't need to tithe to the church, but to the work of God. He also said that we should give more than a tithe to God's work, whenever possible. Now, I fully agree with you that the pulpit is not the place to ask for money, and no pastor should send a "give me money" message. In fact, a sermon is probably not the best time to ask for money at all. Many unbelievers are watching, and they may misconstrue the church as greedy and money hungry.

Churches should never twist their congregants' arms. At the same time, Christians should give to the church without any arm-twisting, but out of their cheerfulness. Would you agree?

Water Baptism (Should I get circumsised too?),


The point of preaching believers' baptism is that we believe baptism does not impart salvation. If it was salvific, then we'd baptize all our infants, lest they die before they are old enough to be baptized. The point of believers' baptism is so that people will be baptized of their own free will. I think this is about as non-legalistic as one can get.

Arminianism (Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),


Actually, Baptists are divided on this issue (as we are on most). My church is strongly Calvinist.

Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )


I agree that this is a problem in some churches, and it should be addressed. "No drinking" and "no dancing" rules should certainly not exist in any church, since this is legalism (not that it is sinful to voluntarily abstain from these things, if you personally are convicted in that regard).
 
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mesue

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Hagios17 said:
Hi all:wave:

My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven:doh: …
...
No ALL of ANY denomination are going to Heaven. Sorry your church was so money oriented that you left. Having a right relationship with Jesus isn't about a denomination. It's about accepting Jesus' work at Calvary as payment for your sin.
 
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Cright

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Church membership (Membership is so that it is easier for the pastor to know who is flock is, it doesn't save, it's helpful to know who proclaims Christ as their savior, from the visitors and the seekers),

Rick Warren (He doesn't write scripture, he writes about it, it will be as falliable as all other non-scripture writings ),

Tithing (Why did Jesus talk so much about money? We better learn about how to handle it from a godly person than from our un-churched, un-saved public school systems),

Water Baptism (This is an outward symbol of our inward faith, it does not save. It's a matter of obediance. You should only get circumcised if you wish too, there are no religious/moral implications per Romans),

Arminianism (This is a lable that does not match my beliefs, I am also not calvinist),

Legalism (I am not legalistic, unless you consider it legalistic to say that you MUST believe in Jesus and your savior, who died for your (and my) sins on the cross to pay for our sins to be saved.)

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?

I'm glad I didn't attend your old Baptist church for very long, it might have put a bad spin on my view of Baptists too. With that said, there isn't a perfect church on this planet, there isn't a church on earth that can boast that all their members/attenders are going to heaven. There will always be unsaved among us.


Carina

Edited to change my words to blue, I accidently left the quote tags on! I'm leaving on so the next post doesn't look so out of place :p
 
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tulc

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Uhmm ok, care to elaborate? :) I'm assuming you aren't talking about this:
Ca·ri·na
n.
A constellation in the Southern Hemisphere near Volans and Vela that contains the star Canopus
tulc(intrigued!) :cool:
 
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Sword-In-Hand

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Hagios17 said:
Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

What secret knowledge? I agree that not all members of churches are saved, but the message of Christ--the most important knowledge is preached to everyone. There's no withholding of that. The church is the body of believers, not a building. Membership means nothing, but I believe God desires us to seek a church to become a part of, simply for the fact being around other believers gives us strength and accountability.

Hagios17 said:
Hagios17 said:
Warren (Bases theories on Paganism:eek: ),

If you find a church that preaches the Gospel according to Rick Warren, run away from it.:p As for the man personally, don't know much about him, have not read his books, nor ever been to a church where they teach anything he's written.

Hagios17 said:
Hagios17 said:
(Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

I'm like everyone else and I cringe when pastor's preach on money, but look in Acts. Paul said it is up to us to support our preachers and we should support them. Our money is for the up building of God's kingdom not to line anyone's pockets. Give as God asks and let Him take care of those you give it to. In the book of Micah it speaks largely about tithing and I still believe it holds true to this day.

Hagios17 said:
Water Baptism
Hagios17 said:
(Should I get circumsised too?)

What's wrong with water baptism? Acts--repent and be baptised...the story of the eunich, they went around preaching the name of Jesus and baptizing in His name. Baptism is the first act of obedience, as it's an outward showing that you have been redeemed and touched by God. Baptism along with the Lord's Supper are two ordinances of the church. Neither saves, but they are most important. Jesus was baptised, was He not?

Hagios17 said:
Arminianism
Hagios17 said:
(Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),

Any time you get into an "ism" there's bound to be trouble. The great thing about the Bible is that we all have access to it. Should you hear a pastor preach on a subject you don't agree with, then study it for yourself and see what the Word has to say. "Isms" need booted out of the church.

Hagios17 said:
Hagios17 said:
(strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

Another "ism". Legalism in the church stinks, and I promise it's not only in the Baptist church, as are none of the questions you've asked. It's world wide in all churches, no matter the denom and that's very sad. Like someone said, there are no perfect churches, cause if they were, they wouldn't be on earth.

Glad you asked the questions. Hoped this helped in some way.
 
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aReformedPatriot

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My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven:doh: … along with many other contrabutions, such as:

Hey Josh,

This is a false view of the Baptist Church. As much as I would desire this to be true, the sad fact is that not all baptists are true Christians.

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

This is a false view also. What secret knowledge? The benefits of being a member of a local church body means that you bring yourself under the authority of the church so that they may help keep you accountible. Its a dedication to a local body being unified. When I joined my church I was imparted no secrets.

Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism:eek: ),

Rick Warren. I've read one thing by Rick Warren and I failed to see what your saying here. Ive not heard anything like this from any group but if this is so, could you document this?

Tithing (Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

The Bible says that the church is to support its ministers and the churches ministries. Money doesnt grow on trees and so we tithe. Show me a text where it says the minister is not to be supported by his flock and I will concede. If money is the root of all evil why do you use it? Or when the sin of rape occurs, where is the monetary motivation? Rather the Greek text says that "money is a root of many evils." Money used is meant to be used in a godly way and is not to consume one's life. Greed is evil.

Water Baptism (Should I get circumsised too?),

If you want to. But Baptism and Circumcision are different. Circumcision was ascribed to all Jews indiscriminately and was a sign and seal of covenant membership, whereas baptism is applied to believer's only. Jesus commanded it in Matthew 28:18-20. It is symbolic and does not cause ones salvation.

Arminianism (Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),

This has been a debate in many churches. Most baptist churches I have encountered are more calvinistic.

Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

I don't remember the last sermon that commanded me to offer sacrifice or to abstain from various foods or gentiles? So, I do not know how you are able to blanket the entire baptist church as being legalistic.

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?

See above.

Awaiting many Baptist replies:)

P.S. I hope I don't sound too antagonistic, as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere

Please reply to the Baptist responses. We would hate for you not to be baptist because of false opinions. I think you would find much solidarity in the replies you get to these questions.

Hagios17 / Qadowsh17 / Saint17 (One who is… Hebrews 10:14 :)):wave:

Amen. "Heb 10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." It is by God's grace. Christ is my righteousness.
 
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Dondi

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Hagios17 said:
Hi all:wave:

My name is Josh. And I used to be Baptist, until I realised not all Baptists are going to heaven:doh: … along with many other contrabutions, such as:

Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

Wrick Warren (Bases theories on Paganism:eek: ),

Tithing (Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

Water Baptism (Should I get circumsised too?),

Arminianism (Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),

Legalism (strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?


Awaiting many Baptist replies:)

P.S. I hope I don't sound too antagonistic, as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere


Hagios17 / Qadowsh17 / Saint17 (One who is… Hebrews 10:14 :)):wave:

I see most other replies are going to line up with my own. But just to show you that you have some misconceptions about being a Baptist, here is my take:

Church Membership: The church is made up of a body of believers. In our local independant baptist church there are two qualifications for church membership: 1) One must be born again (saved). As I have said, the church is a body of believers. 2) One must be baptized. We believe baptism united us as a local congregation...we are all baptized into one Body...the body of Christ. Baptism does not save, but it identifies us publically with Christ as prefigures our death, burial, and resurrection with Him.

Rick Warren: Irrelevant to anything having to to with being a Baptist. He does not speak for Baptists at large. Maybe in his particular church, but he is not of any consequence to my church.

Tithing: In the Old Testament, tithes were what was paid to the Levitical priesthood. Since the tribe of Levi was not apportioned a section of land, they were given tithes as their inheritance. Levis had to live throughout Israel so that they could minister to the other tribes in the priestly duties as ordained by God.

We as Christians adopt the concept of tithing because it is a way to support our pastor and support the administration of our church. A tithe is 10% of one's income. Most pastors are in the ministry full time and thus need to feed their families. They are essentially like the Levitical priests, in need of support from the congregation. The church also incurrs maintenance costs: electricity, water, etc.

Offerings: These are different from tithes. While members are expected (but nothing is actually a requirement for membership, we give out of our duty to God), offerings are what is given beyond our tithes, given out of our excess as God leads a person to give. There are other ministries that are supported by offerings such as missions, building fund (mostly for new buildings or additions), and charitable giving.

Water Baptism: See my remarks in Church Membership.


Arminianism: If what you mean that we have a freewill to come to God for salvation, this is what my church teaches. My church is not Calvinist and believe that salvation is available to all, though not all are willling to seek it. We also believe that once a person is saved, they are "sealed" in the Spirit (Ephes. 1:13) and cannot lose their salvation (John 10:28-29).


Legalism: "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." - I Cor. 6:12

This is not legalism. This is exercising restraint in our freedom in Christ. We are not bound by the Law, but led by the Spirit. But in our freedom there are things that are not beneficial to us as we grow in the Lord. Our pastor stresses clean living and modesty. Girls should not be wearing anything like low-cut dresses or high skirts that will cause a brother to fall or mentally sin. Likewise, guys should not go around without a shirt on when working around the church on a hot day, lest the sisters get tripped up. this is not a written rule, but principles we should take in consideration for our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Other things such as the types of movies, TV shows, and music may be hinder our Christian walk. The principle is found in Phillipians 4:8:

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."



This is basically what my church is all about. there other Baptist churches that will vary on these issues, but most of the Baptist churches I've attended espouse these principles.


I hope this clears up concerns you have about being a Baptist. We're as bad as you think. Sinners, yes. But saved by grace, thank God! :)
 
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Cright

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tulc said:
Uhmm ok, care to elaborate? :) I'm assuming you aren't talking about this:

tulc(intrigued!) :cool:


I went back and changed my answers to blue so you can see them, I accidenlty left them in his quote tags!! :doh:

sorry! haha
 
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Ramdar_Goftar

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Hagios17 said:
Church membership (The secret knowledge is only obtained by a member... sounds like Gnosticism),

I have never seen this before when did salvation become about membership I would like to know where you are getting your info

Hagios17 said:
Hagios17 said:
Warren (Bases theories on Paganism:eek: ),

huh? again where did you get this

Hagios17 said:
Hagios17 said:
(Why on earth are Baptists preaching about money. Didn't they know that the love of money is the root of all evil. And that is no secret.),

How else can we keep our building up and our pastors paid they need money too. Plus God requires 10% from us

Hagios17 said:
Water Baptism
Hagios17 said:
(Should I get circumsised too?),

Jesus was Water baptized he even required it for his disciples and the Apostles baptized new converts

Hagios17 said:
Arminianism
Hagios17 said:
(Merging of Semi-pelagianism and the Bible: Its maxim: "It is mine to be willing to believe, and it is the part of God's grace to assist."),

again Huh? where do you get your info

Hagios17 said:
Hagios17 said:
(strict adherence to the law??? "All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Corinthians 6:12 ) )

We should all try our best to follow the law. We dont believe that it is required but it is very good to do

I am sorry that you have gotten all this info and the church that you used to go to that was baptist obviously wasnt really baptist in my opinion
 
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newbeliever02072005

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menno said:
Think he'll come back around?

I wonder if he is allowed. He made this statement here that makes me think he might not be able.

Hagios17 said:
P.S. I hope I don't sound too antagonistic, as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere

I hope that he is ok.
 
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Hagios17

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Hagios finally Response to the BAPTISTS


ARTICLES AT BEREANBEACON ON RICK WARREN’S BOOK “THE PURPOSE DRIVEN LIFE”











Hi

I’m so sorry it’s taken me so long to post a reply to you all… I have just been so busy.

Now I am perturbed at the idea that there are those who proclaim a message restricting worship, fellowship or even the understanding of the unbroken wisdom of God to any geographical location, such as a Temple. It is utter tyranny to confine His people to a Temple, as those who are born of the Spirit are like the Spirit. And “The wind (Spirit) bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth…” (John 3:8) Our worship of the Father is not bound to a pew, but free in spirit and in truth. Our fellowship is not bound to a pew, but as unpredictable as the Spirit. And our understanding of God’s revealed logic (Logos) is not bound under the subjection and scrutiny of the pastor but under the Almighty. A lot of Christians make Temple seam as if it is the only place to worship, fellowship and learn proper doctrine. I think this is a growing problem. What do you guys think?


<<HumbleMan>>


&#8220;Welcome to B/AB! &#8221; Hi:)


&#8220;Church membership: I don't place nearly as much importance on it as some people. I think most regular attendees know each other well enough to come together to make decisions about leadership, spending, and such.&#8221; The great emphasis that Christians place on Temple is what I think leads them astray so easily. One must never loose one&#8217;s objectivity toward opinions and ideas. Not everything the pastor says is right:)

&#8221;Ricky Warren: Nice guy, knows the bible, and has a great grasp of social dynamics.&#8221; The devil knows the Bible and has a grasp on social dynamics and many, many, many, many other things. Is he therefore a nice guy? Please do not allow your objectivity to be clouded in a sort of humanitarian appeal. As the most efficient of lies are not Smack! Bamb! Right out in the open. They are covered in the sweat milk of subtlety and require real men and women of God to spot them out.

I have linked this post to some articles by an X &#8211; 40 year Dominican Priest on Rick Warren&#8217;s purpose driven life. Please read them.

&#8220;Tithing: I think some good posts were (and are) being made on the "Tithing/Missions" thread. Basically, I give what I feel I can. God knows my heart and my earthly responsibilities.&#8221; I have been hit with two absurd questions that are somehow as posed to justify the most holly and divine doctrine of Tithing:

Question 1: How is the pastor going to feed his family [without the most hallowed and divine doctrine of tithing]? :)
Question 2: How are we going to bring the Body of Christ out of debt with the tax man [without the most hallowed and divine doctrine of tithing]?&#8221; :)

Now I can see why it is written that the love of money is the root of all evil.

&#8220;God knows my heart&#8230; &#8221; Yes, &#8220;And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.&#8221; (John 2:25)

&#8220;Water Baptism: by immersion for the remission of sin after being born again.&#8221;


&#8220;John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.&#8221; (Mark 1:4) These are two different baptisms talked of.

Is there only one water baptism talked of in the Holly Scriptures? Please elaborate with scripture.

&#8220;Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour. There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.) Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.&#8221;

Is the Physical work of Water Baptism for the remission of sins, or the Spiritual Baptism? Please elaborate with scripture.

There are three ways that I see that the following verse can be taken. Which way do you prefer, and why?

&#8220;He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved&#8230; &#8221; (Mark 16:16)

(1) A man&#8217;s belief in Christ Jesus is the work of God, as &#8220;there is none that seeketh after God&#8221;, &#8220;none that knoweth God&#8221; and &#8220;none that doeth good&#8221;. And this baptism is the baptism of the Holy Ghost. (An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit, as a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. The scriptures teach that man is under sin&#8230; the sin of Adam. And therefore man is altogether unwilling for any good. And this is why salvation is referred to as a gift of God, received by grace.)
(2) A man&#8217;s belief in Christ Jesus is a work of his own, as all seeketh after God, all knoweth God and all doeth good. And this baptism is the physical water baptism.
(3) Man&#8217;s belief in Christ Jesus is a work of God + his own, as all seeketh + don&#8217;t seeketh after God, all knoweth + don&#8217;t knoweth God and all doeth good + doeth evil. And this baptism is the physical baptism + the spiritual baptism. (There is a Hindu principle that talks about a black (evil) and white (good) dog in you, and whoever you feed the most will win, which is a form of Gnostic dualism.)

I uphold (1) because God is a good God who requires a good work of faith to provide salvation. And no man is able to produce from his own will anything good, as all are under the law of sin and death, dead in their trespasses and sins. One has to look beyond the idea of free will, as the will cannot be free if it is a servant of sin. And you cannot serve God and sin (two masters).

Now when the focus changes from man to God, saving faith becomes a gift of God: &#8220;For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.&#8221; (Ephesians 2:8-10) &#8230; your belief becomes a work of God: &#8220;the work of God to believe in him whom he hath sent&#8221; &#8230; and born of the will of man changes to born of God: &#8220;But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.&#8221; (John 1:12-13)

I see this Baptism as the effect of believing: Spiritual Baptism into the body of Christ, altogether a work of God, as if it is a physical baptism, then grace becomes no more grace, wouldn&#8217;t you say?

&#8220;Arminianism: I don't like labels. I believe God's gift of salvation is free for all who wish to want it.&#8221;
Really&#8230;? So you don&#8217;t like to be called a Christian, human, person or Baptist either, hey? I think the true reason you have said: &#8220;I don't like labels&#8221; is because Arminianism is a heresy. (Arminianism is a subtler form of Pelagianism, which was condemned as a heresy.)

&#8220;Legalism: By the grace of God I am loved, and by the grace of God I will love. Don't need a KJV, clean shaven face, or long sleeved shirt to believe in God's word and deeds.&#8221; Did you know that it is by the grace of God a person believes?

as I just would like to talk about these things that I'm not aloud to talk about elsewhere

Just curious, where can't you talk about this? Mmm&#8230; my once Baptist pastor called me a fool for being so objective as to question his teachings. He became very agitated and angry that I had the guts to disagree with his divine and supreme wisdom&#8230; Nice guy:)


<<Tulc>>


&#8220;Who said Church membership is required?&#8221; Required for what?


&#8220;Do you mean Rick Warren? If so, who said you had to believe what he teaches?&#8221; No one said directly to my face that I have to believe Rick Warren&#8217;s teachings, but that doesn&#8217;t mean I&#8217;ll ignore them, as I am to contend for the faith&#8230; and not duck for cover so that brethren may be deceived.
&#8220;Uhmm if you can find another way to pay for building upkeep and the Pastors salary I'm sure everyone would love to hear it! &#8221; Money, money, money&#8230; I abhor the idea that a preacher of the Gospel should get a salary, as the preaching of the Gospel is not to gain treasures on earth, but in heaven. The profit of preaching the gospel is not money, but that a person might come to the hearing of faith. What a pity that people have their mind so focused on money. Such a loss:-(

Did Jesus say repent and get circumcised? Did the Apostles baptise new believers or circumcise them?
&#8221;Did Jesus say repent and get circumcised?&#8221;
I have not associating repentance with circumcision, but circumcision with water baptism. What do you think the following verse means?

&#8220;He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved&#8230; &#8221; (Mark 16:16)

&#8220;You don't agree with it? That's fine, find the things you do agree with and support them! &#8220; Obviously I will support things I agree with:) But I will also contend for the faith, bringing false teachings to zero under God&#8217;s revealed wisdom (Logos).

&#8220;Who said we have to obey the Law to be saved?&#8221; Haven&#8217;t you noticed that this is one of the most popular teachings in the church? O but of course not smack! bamb! in your face, but rather subtle.

&#8220;I kind of like Rick Warrens book) &#8221; Please read the articles I have linked to the post.
 
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Hagios17

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<<Arunma>>


“Hello Josh. I don't hold it against you in any way for being an "ex-Baptist" (after all, it's not as if you've gone apostate from Christ), but I just wanted to remind you that Baptists are not a single denomination. There are liberal and conservative Baptists, as well as every type in between, and they have widely differing views. Personally I prefer to associate with fellow evangelicals rather than Baptists.” Lol. True, very true. I guess I am just experiencing a bit of after shock from the ruining of my previous Baptist church.


“I can do everything that the members can do, except vote on official church business.” An exception can cause the fall of a church any day.

”I haven't read Rick Warren. A friend gave me "the Purpose Driven Life," and I'll probably read it when I get around to it, but Warren's name has never been mentioned in my church. I think Warren is a member of the SBC. But his opinions don't represent any major Baptist or evangelical denomination.” Praise the Lord that you haven’t read his book yet. Please read the articles from the links I have provided on Rick Warren. Rick Warren’s movement is huge… don’t be fooled.


“He's specifically said that we don't need to tithe to the church, but to the work of God. He also said that we should give more than a tithe to God's work, whenever possible” What work of God? Do you mean the following?


“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” (John 6:29)


Churches should never twist their congregants' arms. At the same time, Christians should give to the church without any arm-twisting, but out of their cheerfulness. Would you agree? Yes, but not if you are referring to any old organisation?

The point of preaching believers' baptism is that we believe baptism does not impart salvation. If it was salvific, then we'd baptize all our infants, lest they die before they are old enough to be baptized. The point of believers' baptism is so that people will be baptized of their own free will. I think this is about as non-legalistic as one can get.
Yes, water baptism does not impart salvation. Then why do people preach the traditional water baptism? O, and is the will really free? … as I was of the impression that the will is in bondage to its master, sin:).

Actually, Baptists are divided on this issue (as we are on most). My church is strongly Calvinist.
Cool:)

”I agree that this is a problem in some churches, and it should be addressed. "No drinking" and "no dancing" rules should certainly not exist in any church, since this is legalism (not that it is sinful to voluntarily abstain from these things, if you personally are convicted in that regard).”
Yes, it is a great problem that preachers preach about how we must adhere to the Law, as we are not set apart to preach a message of adherence to the law, but the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and what He did.




<<Mesue>>


No ALL of ANY denomination are going to Heaven. Sorry your church was so money oriented that you left. Having a right relationship with Jesus isn't about a denomination. It's about accepting Jesus' work at Calvary as payment for your sin.
Thanks mesue. I appreciate that a lot:) A relationship with God is purely by grace, and should be utterly credited to what Christ did not only on Calvary, but the whole of his life of adherence to the Law. A relationship only comes after the Lord has worked his work in you: [First Facts (revealed Logos), then faith (in the Messiah God: -- gift by grace… the Lord’s work in you) and then lastly feelings (as to avoid the experience orientated movement, i.e. “I experienced God’s love while slaughtered a hundred people”).]



<<Cright>>


“Church membership (Membership is so that it is easier for the pastor to know who is flock is, it doesn't save, it's helpful to know who proclaims Christ as their savior, from the visitors and the seekers),” If I were a pastor I would leave that up to the Lord, as it is not my duty to put preasure on people to be saved, but preach the gospel so that people will come to the hearing of faith… a gift of God.

”Rick Warren (He doesn't write scripture, he writes about it, it will be as falliable as all other non-scripture writings ),”I totally agree, but if what he says about the scripture is contrary to its doctrine, then it should be credited as dung.

“Why did Jesus talk so much about money?” Because the love of money is the root of all evil.

”Water Baptism (This is an outward symbol of our inward faith, it does not save. It's a matter of obediance. You should only get circumcised if you wish too, there are no religious/moral implications per Romans)”If this is an outward symbol of a faith produced from myself, then I will renounce my early water baptism, as I by my own will can do nothing to please the Father. Only Jesus Christ did that, as by one offering hath he perfected forever them that are sanctified.

”Arminianism (This is a lable that does not match my beliefs, I am also not calvinist)”, If you don’t believe in Armanianism or Calvanism, what do you believe… You do now that the two are apposed right?

Legalism (I am not legalistic, unless you consider it legalistic to say that you MUST believe in Jesus and your savior, who died for your (and my) sins on the cross to pay for our sins to be saved.)


“you MUST believe in Jesus and your savior, who died for your (and my) sins on the cross to pay for our sins to be saved” That is much like saying: “You MUST be born again!!!” … And yet Jesus told Nicodemus: “ Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” (John 3:7) The way in which you preach the Gospel can come across as legalistic if you are the “MUST!” type of Christian. A person, who is the servant of sin, cannot “MUST believe in Jesus and your saviour” as he is dead in his trespasses and sins. And all are servants of sin. But we who are set apart to preach the Gospel of what Christ did are only this way because of what Christ did. That’s all. Leave the “MUST believe in Jesus and your savior” up to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

What are your opinions on these I have just mentioned?

I'm glad I didn't attend your old Baptist church for very long, it might have put a bad spin on my view of Baptists too. With that said, there isn't a perfect church on this planet, there isn't a church on earth that can boast that all their members/attenders are going to heaven. There will always be unsaved among us. O most definitely sister:)

Carina

Edited to change my words to blue, I accidently left the quote tags on! I'm leaving on so the next post doesn't look so out of place
Lol:)
 
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