Wounded?

[Reformationist]

Sure are, so as you can see discussing this would be kind of a waste of time because you come from one view and I come from another. What we could do, however, is discuss where we each received our views form and on who?s authority do we speak?

Okay. Though you take me at a bit of a disadvantage. I'm not very well versed on church history. Please be gentle.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay. Though you take me at a bit of a disadvantage. I'm not very well versed on church history. Please be gentle.

God bless

You never learned any in school?

 

[Reformationist]

You never learned any in school?

What, church history? Hmm... let me think... can't say as I remember learning anything relating to Christianity in school. Of course that was thirteen years ago for me. Maybe it's a bit more recent for you.

I imagine I was taught something about the Holy wars but other than that I'd say I'm a bit ignorant.

So, where did you learn your views from and what makes you think that that source is THE authority?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

So, where did you learn your views from and what makes you think that that source is THE authority?

Are you suggesting using something other than the Bible to determine truth?

 

[Reformationist]

Are you suggesting using something other than the Bible to determine truth?

Well, first you'd have to already believe that that extra biblical support was authoritative.

Let's pursue this from the perspective that someone is totally clueless about Christianity.

How would they know that what you believed was authoritative?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Well, first you'd have to already believe that that extra biblical support was authoritative.

Let's pursue this from the perspective that someone is totally clueless about Christianity.

How would they know that what you believed was authoritative?

Thanks,
God bless

Unless the knew that Jesus built a Church on St Peter's confession of faith and set up the Apostles with authority to bind and to loose they wouldnt know that what I believe was authoritative.

 

[Benedicta00]

What, church history? Hmm... let me think... can't say as I remember learning anything relating to Christianity in school. Of course that was thirteen years ago for me. Maybe it's a bit more recent for you.

I imagine I was taught something about the Holy wars but other than that I'd say I'm a bit ignorant.

So, where did you learn your views from and what makes you think that that source is THE authority?

Thanks,
God bless

Well actually you can't separate early world history from Church history. They are basically one in the same.

I learned about world religions in school. It doesn't give a slant; it just gave the information about each group but I wasn't real interested back then.

I have since read some Catholic Church history books and I can’t see a real difference in the accounts. Church history starts at the book of Acts and if you follow it you can see it was the Catholic Church that was here in every century and it was the Catholic Church that civilized the world by bringing the message of Christ to all the world. There literally was no other Christian groups that was bringing the message around the world- there was no other Christian groups at all, there was the Catholic Church and that was it. Of course I believe the Catholic Church today is that very same Church as it was then.

There was no Calvinism, no Protestantism until the 16 century. The heresies that came up were condemned and no one challenged the Church’s authority until Luther.

The way I look at it is like this; either you can believe that the Church got it all wrong since day one and the reformation is what Christ intended for His Church- He made what was wrong- right, or you can believe that the Catholic Church is what Christ established and intended. But what is not acceptable to me is to deny that for 1500 years that Catholic Church, right or wrong, wasn’t the authority- wasn't who brought Christianity around the world freeing man with the gospel of Christ.

Of course if you believe the reformation was an act of God and is what God intended for His church then you have to ask yourself, why so many theologies and what makes one chose the one they do?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Of course if you believe the reformation was an act of God and is what God intended for His church then you have to ask yourself, why so many theologies and what makes one chose the one they do?

And look at the fruits of the Reformation...the Christian message looks ridiculous when Christians can't decide what is true even amongst ourselves!

That is not what Jesus wanted in John 17.

 

[Reformationist]

Unless the knew that Jesus built a Church on St Peter's confession of faith and set up the Apostles with authority to bind and to loose they wouldnt know that what I believe was authoritative.

Okay. So how would you convince them of that? Also, even if they did recognize the Apostles' authority how would that lead them to believe that that authority had been passed down to your church hiarchy?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, first you'd have to already believe that that extra biblical support was authoritative.

Let's pursue this from the perspective that someone is totally clueless about Christianity.

How would they know that what you believed was authoritative?

Thanks,
God bless

Well in the very days of Christ why did Christians believe? On who's authority? There were no gospels until, what, 40- 50 years later? Didn’t they know Christ rose from the dead because someone told them? And when the accounts were written, who told them they were trustworthy, what kept Christianity alive for the first 400 years when there was no bible in the hands of each person? What converted the pagans when the Christians dispersed into the Pagan lands? They didn't have Bibles, they had their word.

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay. So how would you convince them of that? Also, even if they did recognize the Apostles' authority how would that lead them to believe that that authority had been passed down to your church hiarchy?

Thanks,
God bless

We use God’s word and His Holy Spirit. Tradition is His word both oral and written. How would you go about proving to someone the bible is God’s word?

 

[Reformationist]

Well actually you can't separate early world history from Church history. They are basically one in the same.

I learned about world religions in school. It doesn't give a slant; it just gave the information about each group but I wasn't real interested back then.

Well, as I said, it was a long time ago. Whatever I might have been taught has gone by the wayside. I definitely need to study church history though.

I have since read some Catholic Church history books and I can’t see a real difference in the accounts. Church history starts at the book of Acts and if you follow it you can see it was the Catholic Church that was here in every century and it was the Catholic Church that civilized the world by bringing the message of Christ to all the world. There literally was no other Christian groups that was bringing the message around the world- there was no other Christian groups at all, there was the Catholic Church and that was it.

I agree that the Catholic church spread the message of the Gospel.

There was no Calvinism, no Protestantism until the 16 century. The heresies that came up were condemned and no one challenged the Church’s authority until Luther.

Are you sure about that? I find it hard to believe that no one disagreed with the church before Luther. Luther may very well have been the most outspoken or successful of the dissenters but the idea that no one questioned the teachings of the church is a bit too much for me at this point.

The way I look at it is like this; either you can believe that the Church got it all wrong since day one and the reformation is what Christ intended for His Church- He made what was wrong- right, or you can believe that the Catholic Church is what Christ established and intended.

And you believe the latter because of the extra biblical writings of the early Christians?

But what is not acceptable to me is to deny that for 1500 years that Catholic Church, right or wrong, wasn’t the authority- wasn't who brought Christianity around the world freeing man with the gospel of Christ.

I see. Well, just for the record, I am not questioning the early church's authority either.

Of course if you believe the reformation was an act of God and is what God intended for His church then you have to ask yourself, why so many theologies and what makes one chose the one they do?

I guess that is what I'm asking now, in a way. Although I don't think all of the early Christians would agree with the teachings of the modern day Catholic church.

Maybe you could point me in the direction of some good unbiased research about the early church's teachings.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Well in the very days of Christ why did Christians believe?

According to who, reformed Christianity? In this forum this seems like more of a rhetorical question. I'm not sure you want my take on this.

On who's authority?

As I said, I don't think people believe because a "reliable" source tells them to believe.

Didn’t they know Christ rose from the dead because someone told them?

Sure. So who told them?

And when the accounts were written, who told them they were trustworthy, what kept Christianity alive for the first 400 years when there was no bible in the hands of each person?

At the risk of being condescending I don't believe it was man who "kept Christianity alive for the first 400 years."

What converted the pagans when the Christians dispersed into the Pagan lands? They didn't have Bibles, they had their word.

Okay.

 

[Reformationist]

We use God’s word and His Holy Spirit. Tradition is His word both oral and written. How would you go about proving to someone the bible is God’s word?

I am not aware of being commissioned to prove the truthfulness of the Gospel. In fact, I am sure that I don't have that power. My commission was to share the Gospel. The "believing" is God's doing.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Well, as I said, it was a long time ago. Whatever I might have been taught has gone by the wayside. I definitely need to study church history though.

Just do yourself a favor and stay away from anti Catholic agendas, like James White or William Webster.

I agree that the Catholic church spread the message of the Gospel.

So do you think they spread the wrong message for 1500 years?

Are you sure about that? I find it hard to believe that no one disagreed with the church before Luther. Luther may very well have been the most outspoken or successful of the dissenters but the idea that no one questioned the teachings of the church is a bit too much for me at this point.

Oh there was plenty but they were condemned as heretics.

And you believe the latter because of the extra biblical writings of the early Christians?

No, I believe because of the uninterrupted succession of the Church's teaching authority, the Father were just the witness. We can see the ecumenical councils through the centuries what we teach. I believe you may be confusing us with the EO. They more or less and I could be wrong go by the ECF as their doctrinal guide so to speak.

I see. Well, just for the record, I am not questioning the early church's authority either.

So you believe somewhere along the line they went off track? At what point did we cease being the Church and became the church?

I guess that is what I'm asking now, in a way. Although I don't think all of the early Christians would agree with the teachings of the modern day Catholic church.

They could have very well have been in error too. Those Christians do not have authority, they do not have infallibility. That is the point. Who do you believe and why?

Maybe you could point me in the direction of some good unbiased research about the early church's teachings.

God bless

Try a secular encyclopedia. Look up the Protestant reformation even John Calvin and see what they have to say.

 

[Benedicta00]

I am not aware of being commissioned to prove the truthfulness of the Gospel. In fact, I am sure that I don't have that power. My commission was to share the Gospel. The "believing" is God's doing.

God bless

Okay, well then that is the point, the beliefs you do have, where do they come from? How do you know 100% they are true? You can say because you believe the bile teaches them but there are others who disagree that the bible teaches what you say. And if there wasn’t any bible around for the first few centuries just a bunch of writings floating around then, if the bible has taught you your faith, what taught early Christians theirs?

Do you believe that God sent out the apostles to teach? And what do you know about St. Patrick?

 

[Reformationist]

Just do yourself a favor and stay away from anti Catholic agendas, like James White or William Webster.

I try to stay away from all "anti-any Christian group." I don't normally think their message is the best way a point is presented.

So do you think they spread the wrong message for 1500 years?

Not at all. I don't think the Christian church of the first 1500 years spread the teachings that you believe. I certainly don't think the Apostles taught what you believe.

Oh there was plenty but they were condemned as heretics.

Well, that's convenient.

No, I believe because of the uninterrupted succession of the Church's teaching authority, the Father were just the witness.

Authority is different than infallibility. My Pastor has the authority to preach the Gospel. He is not, however, incapable of error.

We can see the ecumenical councils through the centuries what we teach.

I guess I'll need to study that.

I believe you may be confusing us with the EO. They more or less and I could be wrong go by the ECF as their doctrinal guide so to speak.

Okay.

So you believe somewhere along the line they went off track?

Absolutely. I don't think that the teachings of your church are remotely like the teachings of the Apostles.

At what point did we cease being the Church and became the church?

Not sure I understand. THE Church is still THE Church. Your beliefs represent one groups understanding of the Gospel. Nothing more.

They could have very well have been in error too.

That's definitely a possibility.

Those Christians do not have authority, they do not have infallibility.

No one is infallible. Preaching infallibly, IMO, was a divine grace that was reserved for the office of Apostle.

That is the point. Who do you believe and why?

I believe the reformers because I think their teachings most accurately reflect the glory of God. I think that Scripture is too clear on too many points to be understood the way you understand it.

Try a secular encyclopedia. Look up the Protestant reformation even John Calvin and see what they have to say.

You're advising me that I should look up the Protestant reformation and John Calvin if I want to learn about the church's history? Okay.

 

[Reformationist]

Okay, well then that is the point, the beliefs you do have, where do they come from?

Are you asking where I first heard them?

How do you know 100% they are true?

I don't know they are 100% true.

You can say because you believe the bile teaches them but there are others who disagree that the bible teaches what you say.

Yes. That's true.

And if there wasn’t any bible around for the first few centuries just a bunch of writings floating around then, if the bible has taught you your faith, what taught early Christians theirs?

I don't think faith is taught. You either have faith or you don't. I think the Bible is important in determining in what you place your faith. As far as who taught the early church, I would guess it was those trained in the Scriptures.

Do you believe that God sent out the apostles to teach?

Yes.

And what do you know about St. Patrick?

Nothing. Care to enlighten me?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Okay. So how would you convince them of that? Also, even if they did recognize the Apostles' authority how would that lead them to believe that that authority had been passed down to your church hiarchy?

Thanks,
God bless

I would show Apostolic Succession in Acts.

Then I would show early Christian writings that demonstrate this historical reality.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Maybe you could point me in the direction of some good unbiased research about the early church's teachings.

Are you honestly seeking knowledge about the early Church?

If so, then read some of these writings in the words of the early Church with no Catholic bias or commentary to turn you off.

Early Christian Writings

If you don't want to buy it, there are copies of these writings online.

If you truly care, I will spend the time to look up the links, but you have to read them if I do.