Wounded?

[Benedicta00]

This statement gets right down to the heart of the matter, and answers the OP's question. Before original sin, it was a freedom related issue. But Adam & Eve chose to turn from God, and thus we all bear the consequences. This is what original sin has done. While we still have our free will, as God continues to give us that, it is an imperfect will; it does not always know (or want to know) right from wrong - it is wounded, we are wounded.

That is why it's called the wound of ignorance. We are capable post baptism, of doing what is right but we struggle with doing it even after baptism. Man is divided in two and is at war with himself but only in the area of moral good and evil. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what enables him the power to resist evil but he has to choose to resist it. That is called cooperation. If we do not act on the graces we do have then this grace that is there will not be operative in our lives because we are choosing to go it alone thinking we can resist evil by our own power or for the lost person, thinking the Holy Spirit and forgiveness isn't important in his life. These are the ones who let human natture get the better of them and never have peace in their lives.

 

[Benedicta00]

I'm not sure if this will help answer your question but it is the best definition of the way this works. From the Council of Trent:

"aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God."

This all takes place before baptism. The Holy Spirit works to enlighten the unbaptized person. All persons have the moral law written upon thier hearts and embedded in our conscience. Free will gives us the opportunity to follow that moral law and to seek the Lawgiver, God. So when you ask can we by our own free will defend ourselves from sin, I would say No. It is the Holy Spirit that moves us to seek goodness and justice. This is a grace from God. How we respond to this grace is crucial. In the hearts of man there is a critical point where one must answer the question "Where does this goodness and justice come from". Does it come from my person or does it come from God? Do we seek this God or do we glorify ourselves as the source of all goodnes and justice. We must make that choice.

Thanks Met. I think what may be confusing to a Calvinist is the moment we come to believe we may already be baptized and have the gift of the Holy Spirit. Coming to believe can happen before or after regeneration.

 

[Reformationist]

Maybe we can finally get to the bottom of this. You seem to think that this grace has to accomplish salvation in a person or it is a waste of grace.

Um...I'm not sure how else to look at it. Why would God extend His grace if it wasn't to accomplish something? Do you think God is indifferent as to whether His grace accomplishes what He purposes it for?

God wants his people to be healed and free and saved but he does not want puppets.

Okay. I agree.

He gives in the form of many graces the remedy to our sick nature but He allows the choice to throw it away if that is what the person chooses.

If He knows the person is just going to "throw it away" why would He give it? Do you believe God is obligated to give the same grace to all people or it makes Him unfair?

However, God is the only judge, he is the only one who knows what goes on in a person?s heart why they reject Him and he judges the soul accordingly.

I don't purport a belief that claims that God makes someone submit. I believe that God, in His divine way, ensures that man believes because He gives man the exact measure and type of grace needed for man to believe. If God knows the heart and, thus, obviously knows what it would take to ensure that a person will embrace Him, why doesn't He just give that?

Try to undersatnd that God deos not see us evil people He sees us as sick (ill) people who choose to become evil. They are the ones who go to Hell. It is not a matter of what the garce acomplishes or doesn't acomplish.

So those who go to hell are those who have chosen to go to hell? Who are those who go to Heaven? Is it those who have chosen to go to Heaven?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

The natural man can not do the supernatural. The Holy Spirit enables the supernatural. A person can will to fight but he has no power with out the Holy Spirit. he is gonna lose, it is not a freedom related issue.

What powers does the Holy Spirit give someone?

 

[Reformationist]

This statement gets right down to the heart of the matter, and answers the OP's question. Before original sin, it was a freedom related issue. But Adam & Eve chose to turn from God, and thus we all bear the consequences. This is what original sin has done. While we still have our free will, as God continues to give us that, it is an imperfect will; it does not always know (or want to know) right from wrong - it is wounded, we are wounded.

I see. So, you believe that when Christ died we were all, somehow, returned to a state of knowing, or wanting to know, right from wrong and, therefore, when one rejects what they know is the Truth it's because they have exchanged what they know is the Truth for the lie of sin and have, thus, earned hell? And those who hold to what they know is the Truth have, what,...earned Heaven?

 

[Reformationist]

I'm not sure if this will help answer your question but it is the best definition of the way this works. From the Council of Trent:

"aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God."

So an unbaptized person recognizes his/her sinfulness and that recognition causes them to detest their sin and turn from it because they believe that God will have mercy on them and justify them for Christ's sake because of this expression of faith. This recognition and resultant repentence causes him/her to begin to love God and so they naturally want to be baptized and begin a new life by keeping the commandments of God?

This all takes place before baptism. The Holy Spirit works to enlighten the unbaptized person. All persons have the moral law written upon thier hearts and embedded in our conscience. Free will gives us the opportunity to follow that moral law and to seek the Lawgiver, God. So when you ask can we by our own free will defend ourselves from sin, I would say No. It is the Holy Spirit that moves us to seek goodness and justice. This is a grace from God.

Okay. And I'm assuming that the Holy Spirit works to enlighten all unbaptized people and tries to cause each of us to seek goodness and justice, right? If He does seek to accomplish this in each and every person doesn't that mean that, in many cases, He is unable to enlighten someone and move them to seek goodness and justice?

How we respond to this grace is crucial. In the hearts of man there is a critical point where one must answer the question "Where does this goodness and justice come from". Does it come from my person or does it come from God? Do we seek this God or do we glorify ourselves as the source of all goodnes and justice. We must make that choice.

Okay, but doesn't the Holy Spirit seek to move everyone in the direction of recognizing that God is the source of all goodness and justice? If so, does that mean that some people, despite the efforts of the Holy Spirit, fail to recognize this truth and end up seeking their own glory?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

That is why it's called the wound of ignorance. We are capable post baptism, of doing what is right but we struggle with doing it even after baptism. Man is divided in two and is at war with himself but only in the area of moral good and evil. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is what enables him the power to resist evil but he has to choose to resist it. That is called cooperation. If we do not act on the graces we do have then this grace that is there will not be operative in our lives because we are choosing to go it alone thinking we can resist evil by our own power or for the lost person, thinking the Holy Spirit and forgiveness isn't important in his life. These are the ones who let human natture get the better of them and never have peace in their lives.

Okay. So what I'm hearing is that the Holy Spirit is given to enable us to cooperate but not given to ensure that we cooperate. Is that accurate?

 

[Metanoia02]

Reformationist,

If I might, let me quote from the Council of Trent again and maybe it will explain the questions you have.

so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.


For a complete reading of this portion of the Council of Trent
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Reformationist . . if I can jump back in here.

Above this was said:

Originally Posted by: Shelb5

Maybe we can finally get to the bottom of this. You seem to think that this grace has to accomplish salvation in a person or it is a waste of grace.

Um...I'm not sure how else to look at it. Why would God extend His grace if it wasn't to accomplish something? Do you think God is indifferent as to whether His grace accomplishes what He purposes it for?

And then you said this:

Okay. So what I'm hearing is that the Holy Spirit is given to enable us to cooperate but not given to ensure that we cooperate. Is that accurate?

On one hand we are speaking of Grace, and then on the other hand we are speaking of the Holy Spirit . . The Holy Spirit of course is a person of the Godhead, not Grace itself .. but conveys Grace to us and so is closely intertwined with this issue of Grace . .

As I know you are aware, the Holy Spirit is spoken of by Paul as being given us as an "earnest" alluding to the legal sense of one giving earnest money in a contract to perfom something which would then be forfeited if that one failed to perform . .Since God cannot lie we can trust that God is going to fulfill His promises to us and we have the Holy Spirit as proof and earnest of these promises .

But a contract involves 2 parties, and if we look at contracts involving earnest money in general, the party to whom the earnest money is given can loose their right to that earnest money if they fail in their part of the contract . .

So when you state above that the Holy Spirit is given to enable us to cooperate but not given to ensure that we cooperate, yes, in a sense that is right . . but really we are also talking about GRACE being given to enable us to cooperate . . it is the Holy Spirit who conveys that grace to us . .

And yes, God most definitely does extend His Grace to accomplish something, but that does not mean that it will accomplish it as it is not the only factor in the equation .. we also factor into this equation, and we have the choice to respond to it or not at any given point . . . but without God's Grace being extended, it would be impossible for us to be able to respond to God . . So God is not at all indifferent to whether His Grace accomplishes something or not, quite the contrary, or He would not extend it in the first place . .

God's Grace was extended to the people of Jerusalem in the person of Jesus . . yet they rejected Him . .and what did He do? Jesus wept.


Think of it this way as well . . I see there is a baby (very cute one ) resting on you in your picture . . I am right in assuming this is your baby? Is this your first or do you have any older children?

If you have older children then this will be part of your experience .. if you don't and your baby is still an infant, you will experience this . . when you offer something to your child do you only offer it if you know they will accept it? If they reject it, do you feel your offer is in vain or a waste of what was offered? Would you not offer something good to your child if it wouldn't accomplish what you wanted it to? Are there not two parties here, you and your child, affecting the outcome?

There are times, when even if you think your offer will be rejected, that you offer anyway, you give anyway to your child anyway because to withhold the offer would be wrong and an act of selfishness . . it is an act of LOVE to offer something that might be rejected . .

God loves us . . He continually offers His Grace to those who are lost because He loves all of us, but He does not tie our hands and make us chose to accept and respond to the Grace He offers. . and He does not withhold His Grace from those who do not respond to it . . He extends His Grace to all just as the sun shines upon the just and unjust alike, and rain comes to the just an unjust alilke . .

It is like a father, kneeling on his knee, holding his arms outstretched to a child for the child to run into . . it is up to the child to run into those arms . . it wasted if the child refuses to do so?


Peace in Him!

 

[Benedicta00]

Theresa,

I can safely say that Don does don't compare human relationships with God's sovereign choice.

 

[Reformationist]

Reformationist,

If I might, let me quote from the Council of Trent again and maybe it will explain the questions you have.

so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.


For a complete reading of this portion of the Council of Trent
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT6.HTM

Hmmm...I see. So the Holy Spirit illuminates all men and then we, individually decide whether to reject or accept, though in accepting we must acknowledge that it by His grace that we are able to do so?

I appreciate all the time you are all spending with me. I have another question, if you'll permit me. If all the Holy Spirit does is illuminate, and this is something that He does for all people, why do some respond positively and some negatively? Obviously the illumination of the Holy Spirit isn't enough, by itself, to incline us to respond positively, shown by the proof that some still respond negatively. Are some just more open to the illumination of the Holy Spirit?

Thanks,
God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay. So what I'm hearing is that the Holy Spirit is given to enable us to cooperate but not given to ensure that we cooperate. Is that accurate?

There are no guarantees that if God gives you his grace you will accept Him, turn your life around and be saved. He loves you, and desires you to be saved so he gives you help to turn your life around as he is the only one who can give you the power that will turn your life around but you must accept it. That is how it works.

Faith is a gift that God offers, your free will- choice enables you to accept the free gift of faith, had God not offered it, you could never come to believe but once you come to believe you are on a journey and the more you walk, the more grace God gives that will enable you to be saved but it always takes your participation.

 

[Benedicta00]

Hmmm...I see. So the Holy Spirit illuminates all men and then we, individually decide whether to reject or accept, though in accepting we must acknowledge that it by His grace that we are able to do so?

I appreciate all the time you are all spending with me. I have another question, if you'll permit me. If all the Holy Spirit does is illuminate, and this is something that He does for all people, why do some respond positively and some negatively? Obviously the illumination of the Holy Spirit isn't enough, by itself, to incline us to respond positively, shown by the proof that some still respond negatively. Are some just more open to the illumination of the Holy Spirit?

Thanks,
God bless

That is a question that only God can answer and why the Church would never condemn any soul to hell because only God can know what is in a man's heart why he rejected grace. A person can respond to grace at his last second and be saved.

 

[Benedicta00]

What powers does the Holy Spirit give someone?

To transcend the human condition.

 

[Benedicta00]

I see. So, you believe that when Christ died we were all, somehow, returned to a state of knowing, or wanting to know, right from wrong and, therefore, when one rejects what they know is the Truth it's because they have exchanged what they know is the Truth for the lie of sin and have, thus, earned hell? And those who hold to what they know is the Truth have, what,...earned Heaven?

We never lost the ability to know right from wrong. We just lost the ability to do what is right in the face of what is wrong.

 

[Benedicta00]

Um...I'm not sure how else to look at it. Why would God extend His grace if it wasn't to accomplish something? Do you think God is indifferent as to whether His grace accomplishes what He purposes it for?

I think the better question is why wouldn't he extended it to all? What benefit is to Him to with hold it? He loves us and wants us to be saved but He wants it to be our choice that is enabled by His grace.

If He knows the person is just going to "throw it away" why would He give it? Do you believe God is obligated to give the same grace to all people or it makes Him unfair?

He gives every man what is needed to walk with Him, man has the choice to walk with him or walk alone. Why wouldn't He give grace to all men?

I don't purport a belief that claims that God makes someone submit. I believe that God, in His divine way, ensures that man believes because He gives man the exact measure and type of grace needed for man to believe. If God knows the heart and, thus, obviously knows what it would take to ensure that a person will embrace Him, why doesn't He just give that?

He does, the person can choose to walk alone, setting himself apart from God.

So those who go to hell are those who have chosen to go to hell? Who are those who go to Heaven? Is it those who have chosen to go to Heaven?

Those who respond to God's grace and persevere in that grace until the end go to heaven.

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

This thread is back open. Please easy on the debates. Keep it friendly and Christ like. If you have any questions or concerns please PM me.

In Mary's Son, Our Lord -
JeffreyLloyd
CF Moderator: One Bread, One Body - Catholic Discussions
Team Faithfulness

 

[thereselittleflower]

Theresa,

I can safely say that Don does don't compare human relationships with God's sovereign choice.

Shelb5 . . I found your post to be confusing. . are you saying that Don doesn't compare human relationships with God's sovereign choice? Or are you telling me not to compare human relationships with God's sovereign choice?

If the later, then I would have to beg to differ with you on this . . Jesus Himself compares our relationship with God with human relationships, specifically that of a father and his son . . here is an example . .

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

In Luke it is related this way:

Luk 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

Luk 11:12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

It is very appropriate to use the human father/parent-child relationship to compare to how God relates to us . .


Obviously something happened in this thread . . I was gone the rest of the day so I have no idea what . .



Peace in Him!

 

[Benedicta00]

Theresa,

I do not disagree with you at all but I have raised the same points to ref many a time myself that you did and he more or less dismisses the relationship we have as parents with our children as a way to compare the relationship God has with his creation.

I can help you out with where he is coming from and if I am incorrect I am certain he will fix my misrepresentation, but in short we are not all born God's children so when you ask if God would save one child while letting another go unsaved he does not see it that way.

He does see God saving all His children, the ones who go unsaved aren't His children. You only become a child of God when you are "born again" and that can only happen by God's sovereign choice. God chooses who is his children and those are the children that Christ died for.

And nothing happened in the thread. Jeff just closed it for a little while.

 

[Reformationist]

This thread is back open. Please easy on the debates. Keep it friendly and Christ like. If you have any questions or concerns please PM me.

In Mary's Son, Our Lord -
JeffreyLloyd
CF Moderator: One Bread, One Body - Catholic Discussions
Team Faithfulness

It was closed? Why is that? Was I debating?

Michelle, I know you asked me some questions and I do not wish to violate the rules by turning this into a debate. I do appreciate your time though.

God bless