Would you vote for a Mormon...

[Osage Bluestem]

It depends on the Mormon.

What if the Mormon was a real Mormon?

 

[ToroEmbolados]

What if the Mormon was a real Mormon?

What do you mean?

Would a Mormon or fake Mormon be better or worse than a fake Christian?

 

[General Mung Beans]

I would never vote for a Mormon, nor anyone else who would swear to uphold a Constitution that does not explicitly acknowledge the Trinitarian God as the source of all political authority, and especially not for someone who would swear to uphold that Constitution and then advocate policies that are forbidden in it.

So: No Romney and no Huntsman. And no Ron Paul, even though he's the least rotten of the whole lot.

The US Constitution doesn't mention God. In fact Alexander Hamilton said when asked why there was no mention of God "I declare, we forgot".

I made a bigger mistake: I voted for Carter twice!!! But my liberal days are behind me and I've come to my senses. Yes, BHO is the worst President I've ever seen too, and maybe the worst US President ever.

The pre-Civil War string of Presidents (Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan) were absolutely awful, there's not much Obama can do to be worse than them...

 

[mothcorrupteth]

The US Constitution doesn't mention God.

Yes, it does. It makes mention of "the Year of Our Lord" in Article VII.

 

[General Mung Beans]

Yes, it does. It makes mention of "the Year of Our Lord" in Article VII.

Does that really count? If the writers of the Constitution had wanted to invoke God in the Constitution why wouldn't they put a direct mention of Him in the Preamble rather than just use His name only as a reference to a method of dating?

 

[Faith.Man]

Does that really count? If the writers of the Constitution had wanted to invoke God in the Constitution why wouldn't they put a direct mention of Him in the Preamble rather than just use His name only as a reference to a method of dating?

Read the Declaration of Independence. This was the true beginning of our Founding Fathers thought. The Federalist Papers too, can't forget them.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Does that really count? If the writers of the Constitution had wanted to invoke God in the Constitution why wouldn't they put a direct mention of Him in the Preamble rather than just use His name only as a reference to a method of dating?

Mention of God and invocation of God are two different things. There was just enough mention of God in the Constitution to satisfy the compromising mainline denominations of the time, but no invocation (which is why I object to the Constitution). Most Christians, unfortunately, were useful idiots at the time--under the leadership of John Witherspoon, for instance, the Presbyterians erased all the language about the establishment principle from the Westminster Standards, replaced the proof texts for it with embarrassingly bad ones for church-state separation, and had the nerve to call their bastard the Westminster Confession.

 

[Faith.Man]

The US Constitution doesn't mention God. In fact Alexander Hamilton said when asked why there was no mention of God "I declare, we forgot".

The pre-Civil War string of Presidents (Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan) were absolutely awful, there's not much Obama can do to be worse than them...

If I remember my American History, none of them tried to destroy the United States of America!!!

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Read the Declaration of Independence. This was the true beginning of our Founding Fathers thought. The Federalist Papers too, can't forget them.

How does the saying go..."the proof is in the pudding"? America's God and Country: Encyclopedia of Quotations is a superb resource loaded with "proof texts" demonstrating the influence of Christianity in the founding of our country. America's Christian Heritage, though short in length, makes for a fine and colorful "coffee table" book.

American Vision is an excellent resource for the hidden suppressed Christian truths of American Politics. From their mission statement "American Vision’s (AV’s) mission has been to Restore America to its Biblical Foundation—from Genesis to Revelation since 1978. We realize that this task requires a strategy to “Make disciples (not just converts) of all nations and teach them to obey and apply the Bible to all of life” (Matt. 28:18-20)." Closely related though more geared towards economics (than politics) from a Biblical Christian worldview, occasionally I browse Gary North -- Specific Answers . North wrote the only economic Bible commentary I've come across, a commentary on Leviticus.

I would encourage any Christian, wanting to search primary firsthand sources to check out The Online Library of Liberty, from there one can download and read the Declaration, Federalist Papers, and tons more writings by the "founding fathers".

On a last note, the influence of the Puritans on our nations founding shouldn't be dismissed. One only needs to read from Noah Webster to understand the role of the Bible in institutions, including education. Another resource used in early American education, was the New England Pimer, as the title suggests, a textbook designed by and for American colonies, including the Puritans. Many of the reading selections were drawn from the King James Bible. There is so much influence of God in our country, it should be painfully obvious, from the slogan on our currency, to swearing on the Bible in courts, to the mention of Him in our flag pledge. God bless America, my home sweet home!

 

[mothcorrupteth]

American Vision is an excellent resource for the hidden suppressed Christian truths of American Politics. From their mission statement "American Vision’s (AV’s) mission has been to Restore America to its Biblical Foundation—from Genesis to Revelation since 1978. We realize that this task requires a strategy to “Make disciples (not just converts) of all nations and teach them to obey and apply the Bible to all of life” (Matt. 28:18-20)." Closely related though more geared towards economics (than politics) from a Biblical Christian worldview, occasionally I browse Gary North -- Specific Answers . North wrote the only economic Bible commentary I've come across, a commentary on Leviticus.

Gary North would disagree with your assessment of the Founders. See the following video, which is based on North's book Conspiracy in Philadelphia: The Broken Covenant of the U.S. Constitution:
Against the World - Conspiracy in Philadelphia - YouTube
From the book:

Unfortunately... we have had a dedicated movement of Christian non-historians, would-be historians, and lawyers pretending to be historians, who think that historical revisionism applied to the prevailing humanist textbook account of the Constitution is called for, not to show the conspiratorial basis of that judicial coup, which the humanists prudently ignore, but to show that somehow, if we just look closely enough, we will find traces of Christianity in the Constitution. To which I say: let us cut our losses now. It is time to scrap this particular revisionist effort. It has produced nothing but confusion in the minds of Christians, and ridicule from the humanists who have the footnotes on their side in this confrontation.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Gary North would disagree with your assessment of the Founders.

Except I didn't give an assessment... anywho I mentioned North as a source for economics. It's not as though I called our nation "Christian", and it's not as though I claimed all of the Founders were Christians. The brilliant Benjamin Franklin was no Christian, but then again reading selections from his writings it is clear he was no atheist either. Thomas Jefferson was a deist, then again he believed in a God, certainly was no atheist. One thing the Puritans and the Founders have in common is the belief in religious freedom, not freedom from religion as it is interpreted today.

See the following video, which is based on North's book Conspiracy in Philadelphia: The Broken Covenant of the U.S. Constitution:
Against the World - Conspiracy in Philadelphia - YouTube

I'll watch the video here in a minute...

From the book:

Without checking, and assuming that is North and in context, I cannot agree with North, and I do not think Gary DeMar would either. Are they both not "Christian Reconstructionists"?

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Except I didn't give an assessment... anywho I mentioned North as a source for economics. It's not as though I called our nation "Christian", and it's not as though I claimed all of the Founders were Christians.

Begging your pardon, but when you give a positive evaluation of resources that claim that Christianity was central to the nation's founding, I think you have given an assessment.

Without checking, and assuming that is North and in context, I cannot agree with North, and I do not think Gary DeMar would either. Are they both not "Christian Reconstructionists"?

I've read Conspiracy in Philadelphia, and that is North, accurately represented. Gary DeMar wouldn't agree with North. In general, Christian Reconstruction has tended to favor the Constitution. North is a rarity in that he sides with the Reformed Presbyterians against the Constitution.

 

[Faith.Man]

How does the saying go..."the proof is in the pudding"? America's God and Country: Encyclopedia of Quotations is a superb resource loaded with "proof texts" demonstrating the influence of Christianity in the founding of our country. America's Christian Heritage, though short in length, makes for a fine and colorful "coffee table" book.

American Vision is an excellent resource for the hidden suppressed Christian truths of American Politics. From their mission statement "American Vision’s (AV’s) mission has been to Restore America to its Biblical Foundation—from Genesis to Revelation since 1978. We realize that this task requires a strategy to “Make disciples (not just converts) of all nations and teach them to obey and apply the Bible to all of life” (Matt. 28:18-20)." Closely related though more geared towards economics (than politics) from a Biblical Christian worldview, occasionally I browse Gary North -- Specific Answers . North wrote the only economic Bible commentary I've come across, a commentary on Leviticus.

I would encourage any Christian, wanting to search primary firsthand sources to check out The Online Library of Liberty, from there one can download and read the Declaration, Federalist Papers, and tons more writings by the "founding fathers".

On a last note, the influence of the Puritans on our nations founding shouldn't be dismissed. One only needs to read from Noah Webster to understand the role of the Bible in institutions, including education. Another resource used in early American education, was the New England Pimer, as the title suggests, a textbook designed by and for American colonies, including the Puritans. Many of the reading selections were drawn from the King James Bible. There is so much influence of God in our country, it should be painfully obvious, from the slogan on our currency, to swearing on the Bible in courts, to the mention of Him in our flag pledge. God bless America, my home sweet home!

A wealth of resources to check out, and a couple of books I've added to my Amazon wish list.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Begging your pardon, but when you give a positive evaluation of resources that claim that Christianity was central to the nation's founding, I think you have given an assessment.

I think there is a difference between saying "the influence of Christianity" and "that Christianity was central", we're certainly not talking about a full-orbed Reformed Christianity, but a simple Apostle's Creed type of Christianity, and I doubt I would disagree with North completely, for there are many compromises that underlie the constitution. But in perspective, the Pilgrims came to America to flee religious persecution where the Church and state were one, to be free to learn of and worship God without tyranny. Personally I lean towards Theonomy so far as being Biblically correct, however who in their right mind would honestly "want" the OT law enforced over what we have? The whole issue of government and Christianity is perplexing to me. If I had the motivation I would post a few quotes from "America's God and Country", I'm almost certain they're not found or discussed in pre-college public history classes. Secular humanists would wipe every trace of God from our rich American heritage if they could.

I've read Conspiracy in Philadelphia, and that is North, accurately represented. Gary DeMar wouldn't agree with North. In general, Christian Reconstruction has tended to favor the Constitution. North is a rarity in that he sides with the Reformed Presbyterians against the Constitution.

Have you read Christian Reconstructionism by North & DeMar? Also worth noting both are Van Tilians. So whatever the disagreements are between them, I think they are minor.

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Have you read Christian Reconstructionism by North & DeMar? Also worth noting both are Van Tilians. So whatever the disagreements are between them, I think they are minor.

I've not read Christian Reconstructionism, but from the looks of the table of contents, they're not touching the question of what America's Christian heritage is. They're discussing the merits of theonomy, which is their common ground. But as for America's "Christian" heritage, North says that it's mostly wishful thinking and that the story of the Revolution is ultimately a story about William Bradford's Presbyterian/Puritan establishmentarianism losing ground to Roger Williams' Cromwellian/Separatist disestablishmentarianism, which Deism and Masonry and other forms of Newtonianism exploited as a foot in the door to erode Christianity's influence.

Personally I lean towards Theonomy so far as being Biblically correct, however who in their right mind would honestly "want" the OT law enforced over what we have?

I would.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I've not read Christian Reconstructionism, but from the looks of the table of contents, they're not touching the question of what America's Christian heritage is. They're discussing the merits of theonomy, which is their common ground. But as for America's "Christian" heritage, North says that it's mostly wishful thinking and that the story of the Revolution is ultimately a story about William Bradford's Presbyterian/Puritan establishmentarianism losing ground to Roger Williams' Cromwellian/Separatist disestablishmentarianism, which Deism and Masonry and other forms of Newtonianism exploited as a foot in the door to erode Christianity's influence.

I'd say overall there is far more agreement between North's views and mine (both Presbyterians and Van Tillians, etc.) than there is disagreement, but I think North is overly negative on this particular issue, hence I side with DeMar on this particular matter.

 

[General Mung Beans]

Read the Declaration of Independence. This was the true beginning of our Founding Fathers thought. The Federalist Papers too, can't forget them.

The Founding Fathers did mention God there, I was just pointing out God's absence from the Constitution. And I believe God is invoked in many of the state constitutions or colonial charters (not sure what to call them).

If I remember my American History, none of them tried to destroy the United States of America!!!

Letting the Civil War happen was the closeset America has gotten so far to being destroyed. And I don't think President Obama's some sort of a Manchurian candidate who intentionally wants to destroy the US-he's well meaning but has the wrong policies just like Buchanan or Pierce.

 

[General Mung Beans]

Just curious but would you be willing to vote for a Catholic considering Santorum and Gingrich both are?

 

[Faith.Man]

The Founding Fathers did mention God there, I was just pointing out God's absence from the Constitution. And I believe God is invoked in many of the state constitutions or colonial charters (not sure what to call them).

Letting the Civil War happen was the closeset America has gotten so far to being destroyed. And I don't think President Obama's some sort of a Manchurian candidate who intentionally wants to destroy the US-he's well meaning but has the wrong policies just like Buchanan or Pierce.

BHO's heroes are the radical '60s activists who wanted to tear down the USA and remake it into some type of socialist state. Chairman Mao and Fidel Castro are heroes to these people. They believe the ends justify the means. This is a dangerous road to go down.

 

[Faith.Man]

Just curious but would you be willing to vote for a Catholic considering Santorum and Gingrich both are?

Jimmy Carter was a Baptist and he was the 2nd worst president of the USA. I don't believe Ronald Reagan's born-again experience was real, but he was a great president. I do believe George W. Bush turned his life around and was a good president (IMO) in troubled times. Time will decide his place in history.